Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 One big issue I had with moving in with my g/f was the fact she has a mastiff/Rottweiler mix that has behavior issues. She says he was a rescue and was abused. He already attacked her other Mastiff once and had her by the throat. She claims she can't stop this behavior but she's done little to socialize him. He also jumps on countertops, knocks over trash cans, and gets into whatever he can. So tonight we are in our bedroom and Eko (My BC) and him are in the other room and they start fighting. I break it up, and Eko has a small cut over his eye (don't think he needs to see a vet) but if I hadn't jumped in it could have been much worse. She's all upset. She is fearful I'm mad at her, but if her dog seriously hurts Eko, I'm going to be beyond angry at her dog. Eko is the sweetest dog ever and wouldn't hurt a fly. Now she's going to be on pins and needles with the dogs, and it's going to create a riff. she already tries to overcontrol her other two dogs out of fear of this happening. I really don't know what to do. Getting rid of Eko is NOT an option. It's me and him or no deal at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Also, this dog is 130 pounds. Eko is 40. He could easily kill Eko if he wanted to. =( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 That dog needs some behavioural work. Not even just the dog aggression, that dog is getting away with far too much. She has to work harder with training, it's imperative for a decently-behaved dog. It could be that he just doesn't do well around other dogs. If that's the case, you guys need to work something out. I know that people can have dogs that don't get along, and it's worked out with crate training, behavioural work and patience. I'm sure others on this board have more experience with it than me. Otherwise... glad you're done with potentially giving up Eko. Long time no see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 That dog needs some behavioural work. Not even just the dog aggression, that dog is getting away with far too much. She has to work harder with training, it's imperative for a decently-behaved dog. It could be that he just doesn't do well around other dogs. If that's the case, you guys need to work something out. I know that people can have dogs that don't get along, and it's worked out with crate training, behavioural work and patience. I'm sure others on this board have more experience with it than me. Otherwise... glad you're done with potentially giving up Eko. Long time no see. Well, he DOES NOT respond at all to any discipline. She says she even had a shock collar on him to control him in the yard, and he would just sit there with his neck twitching while being zapped and show ZERO reaction. He literally just doesn't respond to ANYTHING. He continues the behavior over and over and over. He's a danger to any other dog he's around. This is THE prime reason I was worried about keeping Eko. She doesn't want to get rid of this dog and I'm not getting rid of Eko. I just don't see how she can reform this dog at this point. He is truly a rumbling, bumbling, undisciplined, aggressive mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 As a pet owner, we owe it to our dogs, cats, etc., to keep them safe, mentally and physically. You only have one choice, either re-home Eko, or re-home you both. Regardless of "intention", this dog can kill Eko. If this dog can't/won't be re-hab'd, if you can't guarentee Eko's safety at all times, either Eko, or you both needs to find other lodging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 As a pet owner, we owe it to our dogs, cats, etc., to keep them safe, mentally and physically. You only have one choice, either re-home Eko, or re-home you both. Regardless of "intention", this dog can kill Eko. If this dog can't/won't be re-hab'd, if you can't guarentee Eko's safety at all times, either Eko, or you both needs to find other lodging. She told me tonight that if I wanted to go put Goliath down, I could, but she didn't have the heart to do it. She's always said if he ever showed this aggression towards humans she'd put him down in a heartbeat. It just seems so inhumane. Eko is only a year and a half old, and he's gonna live to be 14-15 hopefully, and I will never get rid of him. It's a bad situation. She loves Goliath for all his flaws, and I love Eko to death. It's a real mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phej Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 How long have the two dogs known each other? Were they getting along prior to this incident? Obviously, you don't know what triggered this incident since you were in a different room at the time it happened so talking about euthanizing one of the dogs seems little premature? Can you separate the dogs through the use of crates while they are not supervised 100%? Has the mastiff seen a vet and a behaviorist recently? Has your girlfriend tried to take some classes with him? Are you interested in helping her train and manage this dog since he is kinda your dog now too? And finally, I really need to ask... what was your girlfriend trying to achieve by shocking the dog away in her yard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 How long have the two dogs known each other? Were they getting along prior to this incident? Obviously, you don't know what triggered this incident since you were in a different room at the time it happened so talking about euthanizing one of the dogs seems little premature? Can you separate the dogs through the use of crates while they are not supervised 100%? Has the mastiff seen a vet and a behaviorist recently? Has your girlfriend tried to take some classes with him? Are you interested in helping her train and manage this dog since he is kinda your dog now too? And finally, I really need to ask... what was your girlfriend trying to achieve by shocking the dog away in her yard? Well, she was terrified of them meeting each other so she wasn't around when I introduced them a few weeks ago. Goliath IMMEDIATELY attacked Eko when they first met, but me and my friend were patient and over the course of an hour Goliath settled down and we took them off leashes. They scraped at each other once before but it wasn't bad and I broke it up quickly. The issue is this dog has attacked her other dog, other peoples dogs, her cat, other cats, every animal imaginable. She claims she's tried to train him to no avail. She's taken him to proffessionals and seen no results. Euthanizing is premature, but you must understand this has been a past problem, not just one with Eko. As far as what triggered it, Eko has been around tons of other dogs and never had any issues. He's playful, a bit spastic, but never aggresive. I can't for one second imagine he instigated this. I think Goliath kept breaking through a fence or getting out so she put on the shock collar and fence, and he still did it and showed no effects from the pain. Now Liz is upset, nervous, and going to be on egg shells around the dogs all the time now. They won't be allowed to play, be together, or do ANYTHING unsupervised. I, for one, think that is just too much micromanagement when dogs should never attack and try to kill each other. This behavior should have been quelled long ago. Is there any way this dog just can't be helped? He will always have this aggression towards other animals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Is there any way this dog just can't be helped? He will always have this aggression towards other animals? A certified animal behaviourist (read: behaviourist, not your run-of-the-mill trainer) will be able to work with him and tell you whether it can be helped, or if there isn't much hope. If absolutely everything else has been tried as you say it has, then that is your option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Obviously it's hard to tell what happened, how it happened or why especially over the internet. If this dog is aggressive with all other animals and she has not been able to train him otherwise, then the solution would be to have him pts. My concern would be though, how much work has she actually tried with him. As others have said a certified vet behaviourist would be the ticket. There are plenty of regular trainers out there who just plain suck. A vet behaviourist knows animal behaviour and how to rehab them, they can also write a prescription for meds if they feel they are needed. They are really good at creating a program and working with the person and the dog. I would wonder if she's taken him to the vet to find out if there are any medical reasons for his actions? As a person who lives with a dog that is both human and dog reactive, I know they can be helped. But it takes a lot of work and a lot of patience. Not just going to a class once a week and saying it didn't help. God, I have taken the same silly recall class twice in a row for the sole purpose of getting my dog used to working around other dogs. She doesn't need help with her recall at all, she just needs to be ok around other dogs and strange people. And you know, we are getting there, but it has been a long road. Having a dog who is this aggressive is a danger to it's self and to others, both human and animal. Your girlfriend can be liable if something should happen. I think she needs to sit down and figure out if she really has done everything she could do to help him. If she has, then you should discuss your options with the vet. You can't re-home this dog if he really is as aggressive as you say, it's just not ethical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 What the others said. A veterinary behaviorist is really this dog's only hope, IMO. Do you know what exactly your GF has tried, like what kind of trainers? And, just as important, has she followed through with the training? The best trainer, the best behaviorist in the world isn't going to change anything unless the owner follows through. And even that isn't a guarantee. If she truly has taken him to qualified professionals, not just your average dog trainer, and he is still aggressive, then euthanasia is not premature. You might want to explain to your GF that as he is, her dog is a lawsuit, or worse, waiting to happen. If he attacks another dog, she could be sued. If he attacks another dog and a human gets injured, she's in a world of hurt. This is a tough situation. Your first responsibility is to yourself and Eko. You could get hurt badly trying to separate an attacking dog who is that big and focused on the attack. Please be careful. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 If the mastiff has attacked that many animals, how many of them did he actually injure? That makes a huge difference. Read this. Before you can even consider training your way out of a situation like this, you need to implement a management plan first. Plenty of people have dogs who do not get along with each other in the same household - they just run a divided household. Can you split the house in half (e.g. with a baby gate) and keep the mastiff separated from the other animals? Muzzle the mastiff? Only when you can keep attacks from happening without your supervision can you start to think about training. IMO, that's not "micromanagement", it's being a responsible dog owner. BYW, if I were in your shoes, I would not be using Eko as a guinea pig. He may be good natured around other dogs now, but just one bad experience can change that attitude permanently, and you could find yourself forever regretting the replacement of your happy go lucky guy by a fearful one that refuses to trust other dogs. Also, if someone waited until I were out of the house to try experimenting with my dogs (like it sounds like you did), they would be banished from the house indefinitely when I found out. From what you wrote, it sounds like you may be adding stress to the situation, both for your GF and for the dogs. Is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 As a pet owner, we owe it to our dogs, cats, etc., to keep them safe, mentally and physically. You only have one choice, either re-home Eko, or re-home you both. Regardless of "intention", this dog can kill Eko. If this dog can't/won't be re-hab'd, if you can't guarentee Eko's safety at all times, either Eko, or you both needs to find other lodging. I could not agree with Dixie_Girl, more this is not going to stop. When I worked for a Vet, a surgeon friend of his wanted a mastiff. Pat repeatedly told him no "don"t'" well he did. Same thing happened, the next trip to the Vet was to put the dog down and the surgeon's career was is doubt because the mastiff took off part of his hand when he was trying to break up the fight. Remember this can also cause great great harm both mental and physical to your dog. Rehome somebody NOW It will not work Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 IMO --- your GF is in denial. IF she's serious about keeping this dog, then she has to be the one to carry through her responsibility not only to this dog, but you, Eko, and any potential victim of this dog in the future. If she cannot commit, then the only realistic option is to have him euthanized. I could have added that finding someone to work with this dog would be an option, but that would not be that easy to do --- to find someone willing to take on this dog with his issues, when there are so many other dogs out there with lesser issues. I'm not saying that this dog cannot be rehabbed. I think he probably could, with the right owner, but your GF apparently lacks the commitment to get him to that manageable level and then be hyper vigilent about him for the rest of his life. That really is a lot of work and it becomes a way of life. In the meantime, how many more might get hurt --- other dogs or humans. Do you really want to take that chance? Unless someone steps up and takes on the challenge of this dog, the kindest thing to do would be to euthanize him. JMO. BTW, my comments about the situation were an observation --- nothing against GF or even the dog. Just an observation with no sugar coating --- which is what I think you need right now. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth77 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Horrid situation. I think you should move out until it is resolved. IMO it is important for your relationship that there is complete agreement about the outcome otherwise the issue will always be there. I hate the thought of euthanasia but if that is the only option your GF in my opinion should make the decision and see it through with of course your loving support. I hope you both can resolve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Ryan, I think it might be helpful to train the mastiff to wear a basket muzzle when he's around other dogs. A veterinary behaviorist could help you teach him how while also helping all of you figure out the best course of action. It's really hard to accurately assess what's going on over a discussion board and the advice you get may be based on insufficient information. Alaska's point about assessing the extent of the damage the Mastiff has caused is excellent (actually, I think all her points are, as usual) and that's an important piece of information to use to help decide the best course of action for this dog in his situation. If he is regularly causing injuries requiring vet attention, that's a different kettle of fish than if he's leaving a lot of spit. Neither situation is good, of course (and could definitely have lasting effects on the dogs he's going after), but the particular paths you might want to take could be different. Also, I'm glad to see that you've made such a strong commitment to Eko--after some of the last messages you'd sent here, that didn't seem at all clear. Good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Also, if someone waited until I were out of the house to try experimenting with my dogs (like it sounds like you did), they would be banished from the house indefinitely when I found out. From what you wrote, it sounds like you may be adding stress to the situation, both for your GF and for the dogs. Is that possible? I got the impression GF didn't want to be there when the dogs were introduced: "...she was terrified of them meeting each other..." It sounds to me like she's afraid of this dog too and really can't handle him and knows it, but wants the decision about what to do with him to be taken out of her hands. I think that's a heavy load to lay on someone else's shoulders. She's probably a very nice, gentle person who just got a dog that needed a lot more training and guidance than she was able to provide and is now in a seemingly no win situation. Please, don't take this as criticism in any way. My heart goes out to everyone involved and hopefully there will be an acceptable outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm not a dog trainer. But I took in a husky/mal x rescue two years ago that needed a home right away. I was very reluctant to take her but it was either me or she was a goner. I socialized her, worked with her. Ran her with my team, she did great. Then one day she snapped at my lead dog in the yard and started a terrific battle that involved one of my sweet wheel dogs. The new dog had this wheel dog by the throat and It was a real fight to get them apart. I never would put her with the team again. And although I really liked this dog, she was sweet, friendly to people with a great work ethic I found her a new home, it took time but I found a great home. The reason I did this was I knew it was better for the dogs. And my poor wheel dog! I knew I would miss this dog, but if anything had happened it would have broke my heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Welcome back, rskillz! I agree that an excellent behaviorist/trainer is needed. And kudos to you for not giving up Eko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskillz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Thanks for all the replies. She wanted me to introduce them without her here, b/c she said she'd be too nervous. I'll talk to her when she gets off work about just what exactly she's done with the dog before as far as professional help and see what our plan is. Eko for now will be kept seperate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Now Liz is upset, nervous, and going to be on egg shells around the dogs all the time now. They won't be allowed to play, be together, or do ANYTHING unsupervised. I, for one, think that is just too much micromanagement when dogs should never attack and try to kill each other. This behavior should have been quelled long ago. Is there any way this dog just can't be helped? He will always have this aggression towards other animals? I feel really bad for you guys in this situation, because I've essentially been there with cats. I know you'd think it can't be as serious with cats as with dogs, but it can. When I moved in with my now-husband, his 2 very extreme cats tried to kill my very un-extreme cats. This necessitated thousands of dollars worth of surgery and medical costs for my animals based on 2 incidents. I was so mad at one of the cats, Lobo, who did the most damage and is the most unstable, that I might have considered euthanasia as well. To have one of us thinking about that and the other one NOT wanting to do it was a terrible strain on our relationship, as you've described. The answer to your statement above is YES, you can and you must make sure they do NOT do anything unsupervised again. I don't know whether your dog can be helped or not but as Julie pointed out it will be a lot of hard work and uneven progress in coping with different behaviors, I don't think there's any sort of magic bullet for this type of thing. Maybe dogs "shouldn't" try to attack each other, just like cats "shouldn't" try to kill other cats they live with but they sometimes do anyway. Don't focus about what should be happening in a "normal" house, because you're not living in one right now. Accept that and take the necessary steps to protect Eko and, if you value it, your relationship with your g/f. We kept our cats completely separate for 4 years successfully, and swarmy cats like Benway and Lobo are very hard to keep on one side of a door while you enter or exit a room. It is not convenient, and takes some planning, but it becomes part of your daily life, and reduces stress for everyone involved, animals and people alike. I would think dogs might even be easier to keep separate, with crate-training. Anyway, good luck to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 You've been given a lot of information to take in. In the end, only you can decide if it's worth it. An accredited behaviorist can help you and/or your GF make an intelligent decision. I've lived with dogs who "fight" and also those who are hell bent on taking the other out. It's not easy in either case, but if the case is the latter, then it's serious, especially with the combination of breeds in the aggressive dog -- both mastiff and rottweiler - bred to be guardians, high pain threshold --, the iffy start in this dog's life, and the visual of him not being phased by the electric collar --- you've got some serious thinking to do here. Been there, done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Euthanizing is premature In my opinion, it isn't premature. If she cannot commit to getting real professional help, and keeping Eko and her dog separated at all times (when one is out, the other is crated our outside, or in another room, etc) then she can only euthanize the dog. Now, I am not easily suggesting this, but she cannot re-home this animal to someone else unless they are fully aware of the potential danger the dog can cause as well as the serious liability your girlfriend would be under if the dog bit another in the future. No rescue will take him that's for sure, so he will be her responsibility for the rest of his life. So it is either seeking out some serious help, but in the end, there is only one other option, as hard as that is to hear. You have a very tough situation on your hands, and I hope everything works out for you. Also, I'm so happy to see you've really committed yourself to Eko, and that you're not going to give him up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 You're in a really tough spot--kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Apparently the g/f is totally aware of what this dog is, since she didn't want to be around when you introduced it to your BC (she's definitely not stupid). She knows the dog's out of control, and it should be her responsibility to deal with it one way or another. But she's dumping all responsibility on you when she ways if YOU want to euth it, that would be OK, but she won't. If you say, fine, let's euth the dog, she now says she's Ok with it, but I would be concerned that somewhere down the road that will come up and bite you in the ass--you know, you "killed her dog" when you two get into a fight over something totally unrelated. Sounds like a recipe for future resentments to me. She really needs to be the one to make a decision and take responsibility. I agree that with these two dogs, there is way too much micromanaging that will have to go on FOREVER. I've been in these situations where two dogs could not ever be together. It's a pain--who's in the house? Who's out? And unfortunately, no matter how careful you are, mistakes get made. About once a year, someone would mess up, and leave the wrong door open, and then they were at it. But they were two same-sized BCs, and we were always lucky enough to get them apart, with most of the damage done to one of the humans in the house. Eko won't have a chance. Look at this situation for the long haul: do you want to micromanage these dogs for the next 15 years? Do you want to put Eko in that kind of tense atmosphere--even if the dogs are separated, they still know the other is somewhere close by, and it creates stress. Do you really want to spend your future with a person who will not accept responsibility? From someone who is admittedly old and jaded and cynical, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 My dog is dog reactive - likes some, hates some, ignores some. I've thought about bringing a second dog in, but always nix the idea because I don't want to set up a disaster situation where I have to choose between my dog and the new dog. With your own situation, the sheer size of the dogs frightens me. I'm guessing your girlfriend can't control the mastiff when he goes on the attack - what happens when you're not home? I agree that this needs to be the decision of the girlfriend. Sounds like she's been avoiding dealing with this issue for some time, and your moving in has just brought it to a head. She has to be the one to face up to the behavior of the dog, commit to working on change if possible, and admit defeat if it's inevitable. Obviously, she wants to live with you AND she knows her dog is a big problem; putting the euth decision on your shoulders just allows her to avoid making a very tough, adult decision. Alas, none of us get to avoid those - it's the price we pay for moving out of our parents' houses. It will be tough for you both if she decides she has to put the dog down - I don't see how she can help linking that decision to your moving in. It's too bad that she didn't deal with the problem before it was so brightly illuminated by this life change. You're stepping into the new stage in your life with a lot of baggage - it's almost like difficult stepkids. Seems as though all the really important lessons in life come from having to make really hard choices, often because we didn't see logical, predictable outcomes when we might have. Which is how, I guess, we all end up old and jaded and cynical. After walking through a few minefields, we learn to see where the mines are planted, and not to step into them. My old, scarred brain is telling me that this is the best solution: Move out, and continue in the relationship while the girlfriend works on the issues with her dog. She will have to take full responsibility to either fix things with the dog, or realize that she can't fix them, and euthanize the dog. Either way, if you move in later, there will be a clear line between her decision about the dog and your arrival in her home. (I realize that moving in and out is not easy financially or emotionally; seems like there's no easy answer here, though.) Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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