jdarling Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Has anyone ever really read through the information on the BCSA website? Apparently, you need a "sponsor" in order to be able to join. However, in their minutes from their board meeting in January, there are "ideas" for changes to the bylaws being tossed around. One of them is: Remove the requirement for a sponsor on the membership application and instead publish new applicant names in one issue of Borderlines, invite comments from the membership, and then the board will vote. This will increase the chance that we’ll get valid feedback/info on applicants. Out of curiosity, I went and looked to see how much a membership is. $50. So does this mean that people are throwing down $50, finding a sponsor that will give "non-valid" feedback/info on the person, so the person can infiltrate the BCSA? To do what, pray tell? And that this is such a problem within the organization that they feel a need to change their bylaws and put a whole new member approval method into place? I then went to look at information about membership. In there, it states: All applicants must complete official Membership Application/Profile form and read the Code of Ethics, Bylaws and Club Information. Code of Ethics states, among other things: Breeding: The aim of any mating is to improve the breed. Therefore, dogs and bitches must be of suitable age (BCSA strongly recommends breeding stock be at least two years old) of general overall good health and intelligence, certified free from hereditary eye defects and hip dysplasia, of good temperament, and with sound structure and bite. The owner of the sire is as responsible as the owner of the dam in all matters of the welfare of the offspring. The terms and conditions of the mating must be clear to all parties prior to mating. Proper documentation of the mating is also essential. And nothing about working ability. But the bylaws state: Section 2: The objectives of the Club shall be1. to further understanding of the disease, defects, injuries and other ailments that afflict dogs in general and the Border Collie in particular; 2. to encourage and promote the quality of purebred Border Collies, emphasizing the breed's natural herding ability as well as soundness; ... Huh? How are they going to emphasize on something they don't breed for? And here's a quote from their "Mission" ... The mission of the Border Collie Society of America (BCSA) is to preserve and enhance the integrity of the Border Collie through promoting responsible breeding and ownership, to preserve the working attributes and intelligence of the breed, to prevent exploitation and abuse of the breed, and promote a spirit of encouragement and learning for the membership in all Border Collie activities, including but not limited to: herding, obedience, agility, conformation, tracking, companion dogs, flyball, and therapy dogs. People have always told me I'd be surprised to know that there are quite a few well-respected working dog handlers that are involved with the AKC stuff. Well, they're right. I am suprised anyone who knows anything about working dogs buys into this ... um ... stuff. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Has anyone ever really read through the information on the BCSA website? Apparently, you need a "sponsor" in order to be able to join. However, in their minutes from their board meeting in January, there are "ideas" for changes to the bylaws being tossed around./....................../prised to know that there are quite a few well-respected working dog handlers that are involved with the AKC stuff. Well, they're right. I am suprised anyone who knows anything about working dogs buys into this ... um ... stuff. Jodi Hi Jodi, If you've ever seen a copy of their Borderlines magazine ( AKC propaganda ) you will probably get sick to your stomach. I know I did !!! This group is worse than the AKC in terms of ruining a breed. Everything is about conformation to the AKC "pretty" standard and even though they say that they want "working" Border Collies ... their definition of a working Border Collie has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with actual work ... only a dog that is pattern trained to a specific course. I tried playing nice with those people and I just don't have the stomach for it. Dave S www.outrunbc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Proper documentation of the mating is also essential. LOL. I know what they mean, but I can't help but giggle at how unclear that statement is. My mind just wanders to doggie sex tapes... Sorry this is not the most thought filled comment, but it made me giggle so I had to share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 LOL. I know what they mean, but I can't help but giggle at how unclear that statement is. My mind just wanders to doggie sex tapes... Sorry this is not the most thought filled comment, but it made me giggle so I had to share. Out of curiosity, do BCSA dogs usually look like real border collies or barbies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I think that if they are in "adult dog tapes", they must look like Barbies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy bob Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 I have met the president and one of the officers of this club at a couple of events in the area. I've also seen a few BCs of members. (I some times stockhandle as a favour to a friend who puts on events at her farm.) Their dogs are definitely not Barbies. Nice dogs with dual registrations. But the poor things have clueless owners and the dogs are frustrated. One of the ladies asked my opinion and I told her she needed to get out of the arena and get a good instructor. I told her of a couple near her but all I heard was excuses why she can't. My theory is that some of these folks have a comfort zone that they just can't step out of. I don't know what the dogs are like in other parts of the country but I've only seen a handful of Barbies here. Oh, that Hob Nob lady is now in our area. An acquaintance of one of my friends is getting one of her pups and the price is astronomical. I just can't believe some one will pay that for a pup. But I suppose I ought not be surprised by anything a title chaser will do if they really believe it will give them an edge. MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 I went to their site and the price of a full registered pup is $2500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Holy cow. That would definitely be the answer to anyone's question. There's gold in them there hills and we shouldn't be surprised to see people flocking there. Just to clarify, there aren't any "BCSA dogs." There's people but not dogs. They are the "parent club" - primary reason for being to oversee the conformation standard, with the tasks also of drafting and administering any ethical guidelines, breed-specific titles and events (subject to kennel club approval), etc. Except for anything they do to the standard, the only breeders they affect are breeders who choose to become members. You don't have to be a member of the breed club to do AKC stuff, and in fact it's a little weird that in the Border Collie breed, some of the very top breeders are NOT BCSA members - or weren't last I looked (admittedly a year or so ago). I talk to a lot of people who are involved in exclusively kennel-club controlled breeds. They don't understand our animosity and say, "look, just get involved with your parent club and change the standard so it doesn't exclude working bred dogs!" They are amazed and shocked when I tell them that the de facto standard is set by people who are not even parent club members (through their introduction and continued dominance of the breed ring with NZ/Aus line dogs). They have this idea that the conformation dog is the "original" dog and the working dogs have "strayed" from that - they have no idea that the American dog has always had the same range of looks, while the conformation dog is the newcomer but almost instantly captured the opinions of judges through being "showier". And the parent club was basically helpless to prevent that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 I have met the president and one of the officers of this club at a couple of events in the area. I've also seen a few BCs of members. (I some times stockhandle as a favour to a friend who puts on events at her farm.) Their dogs are definitely not Barbies. Nice dogs with dual registrations. But the poor things have clueless owners and the dogs are frustrated.MB That's because those who wish to "try herding" can buy ABCA/ISDS/CBCA dogs and then dual-register them AKC. They aren't KC dogs - they are often working-bred dogs that just have the paperwork for AKC. There are folks who are USBCHA Open level handlers who are real AKC apologists, and just enable this sort of thing by encouraging folks to do this. Clueless owners? Yes, very much so. Frustrated dogs? Yes, also very much so. But it makes money for someone and so it will go on over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Oh, that Hob Nob lady is now in our area. An acquaintance of one of my friends is getting one of her pups and the price is astronomical. I just can't believe some one will pay that for a pup. But I suppose I ought not be surprised by anything a title chaser will do if they really believe it will give them an edge.MB Hi, While I agree that the price of her pups is very high, trying to get an edge isn't something that just 'title chasers' do. If I was looking for a pup to do herding with, I'd look to proven lines just like the title chasers do for their performance dogs-JMVHO..... Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hi, While I agree that the price of her pups is very high, trying to get an edge isn't something that just 'title chasers' do. If I was looking for a pup to do herding with, I'd look to proven lines just like the title chasers do for their performance dogs-JMVHO..... Janet The difference, of course, is that if you were looking to buy a well-bred working dog, you wouldn't have to pay through the nose for it. Well-bred working pups go for a quarter of the price quoted in this thread, and at least some of the time those buying working bred pups have a real need for them (i.e., stock that needs managing) as opposed to just wanting a dog out of dogs with lots of titles with the hope that the ability to win titles will be carried through to the next generation. That's a glaring difference, IMO. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi, While I agree that the price of her pups is very high, trying to get an edge isn't something that just 'title chasers' do. If I was looking for a pup to do herding with, I'd look to proven lines just like the title chasers do for their performance dogs-JMVHO..... Janet True, however, if you were to pay that amount you will most likely have an almost finished dog, ready to go on in either Nursery or Open. Whereas with said pup you are getting an 8 week old unknown and you have to co-own it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Scott Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I went to one of her obedience seminars in Chicago in 1990! She's not one of my favorite people, but she has proven herself in obedience for a very long time. Barb S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 In my experience, you might expect to pay quite a bit more for a finished dog ready to run in the Open class...but you could certainly get a started dog for $1200, so the principle is the same! ETA: I could have sworn the price was $1200, but I see it's $2500! Sorry, I clearly need to pay more attention to the details in the earlier posts of the threads I respond to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 And these days, at least out here, $2500 doesn't really get you a dog "ready to go to open"; it'll get you a dog with a decent start on it. But I agree with Julie, the biggest difference is that a really well-bred working pup at 8 weeks will go for $500-$700, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Well, $2500 won't get you an Open dog around here either, but it'll get you a lot closer than $1200 will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 True, however, if you were to pay that amount you will most likely have an almost finished dog, ready to go on in either Nursery or Open. Whereas with said pup you are getting an 8 week old unknown and you have to co-own it... I absolutely agree about the price of the puppies! All I was commenting on(not talking price here), was the fact that no matter the venue, a lot of people will go to what's proven successful in that particular area of work, sport or whatever=) Regards~ Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 $2,500 for a co owned puppy is outrageous. Espically from someone who openly opposed the AKC recognizing the breed because of the dangers it did and still does impose on the breed and now has Champion titles on her one or more of her dogs and also registers them with the AKC. I guess money talks more then ethics for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 OK, so she's taking advantage of the free market system? Hey, supply and demand and evidently her demand is high. I can't fault that if people are stupid willing to pay. She's produced some very nice dogs though now they are for the most part strictly ACK dogs. Big fish in a little pond. Where I have a hard time is that she's breeding dogs that are what, maybe 11 months old. I suppose the age acceptable for ACK is lower than that, hence the litter. There's nothing any one or any club can do. Better that than the alternative I suppose. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I read this particular post along with the "general-BC Breeding" when it started- realized that I had joined the wrong blog. As a previous poster - according to most of this site I should not own a border collie. Yes, your mission statement says that you are open to "pet owners" But not really. I posted a question because I wondered if the behavior was unique to the BC. Probably should not have asked - made us look incompetent Now I realize that I do not own a border collie. After reading the BC Breeding under General I realize that I own a dog that looks just like a border collie but I don't believe that he could herd if his life depended on it. He sees a cow, deer, elk (almost anything bigger than a rabbit) and hides behind me. What I do have is a dog that wants to please, is loyal, a wonderful running buddy, a great hiking buddy, and a big goofy boy who I got when he was one and a half and alone. He has worked his way through fear of garages, cars, people, etc. Now we could call him Mr Rogers. Is my dog trained? Yes, but not to your herding trials standards. My dog sits when ever he sees a car, bike or hiker without any prompting. He understands the difference between a sniffing walk and a training run. He understands "with me". He is perfect 99% of the time. But yes, I still ask stupid questions. Thought I could get insight from the experts. Now I know that he is not a BC - but he is the perfect dog for us and will be with us until he dies. The next time someone says "what a beautiful border collie" I will correct them and say no he is just a beautiful boy. Thank you to those who gave advice an open heart. To the others who feel that we are a pain in the ass - thanks also - this is our last posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I read this particular post along with the "general-BC Breeding" when it started- realized that I had joined the wrong blog. As a previous poster - according to most of this site I should not own a border collie. Yes, your mission statement says that you are open to "pet owners" But not really. I posted a question because I wondered if the behavior was unique to the BC. Probably should not have asked - made us look incompetent Now I realize that I do not own a border collie. After reading the BC Breeding under General I realize that I own a dog that looks just like a border collie but I don't believe that he could herd if his life depended on it. He sees a cow, deer, elk (almost anything bigger than a rabbit) and hides behind me. What I do have is a dog that wants to please, is loyal, a wonderful running buddy, a great hiking buddy, and a big goofy boy who I got when he was one and a half and alone. He has worked his way through fear of garages, cars, people, etc. Now we could call him Mr Rogers. Is my dog trained? Yes, but not to your herding trials standards. My dog sits when ever he sees a car, bike or hiker without any prompting. He understands the difference between a sniffing walk and a training run. He understands "with me". He is perfect 99% of the time. But yes, I still ask stupid questions. Thought I could get insight from the experts. Now I know that he is not a BC - but he is the perfect dog for us and will be with us until he dies. The next time someone says "what a beautiful border collie" I will correct them and say no he is just a beautiful boy. Thank you to those who gave advice an open heart. To the others who feel that we are a pain in the ass - thanks also - this is our last posting. NOT ONLY AM I AN IDIOT BC OWNER - I AM AN IDIOT BLOGGER - I MEANT THIS TO GO ON THE "WHY" QUESTION. sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hey, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your dog. She is a dog. She is descended from Border Collies. She's a great dog. People here are only saying that dogs that are not proven on working stock should not be used for breeding Border Collies. At some point in time, breeding for something other than stockworking qualities will and does result in a dog that is no longer a "real" Border Collie, even though it looks like one. Some pups from even the best breedings will not have what it takes to be good stockdogs. But no one has anything against your dog - only, perhaps, against the breeding choices that produced him if they were less than what we would consider responsible breeding. There are a lot of folks on these boards with dogs that came from pet breeders, shelters, show breeders, rescues, purebred backgrounds, mixed breed backgrounds, working Border Collie backgrounds, and who-knows-what backgrounds. It doesn't matter where they came from. It doesn't make your dog any less worthwhile as a pet, a companion, a performance animal, a service animal, or whatever he does best. What matters is that breeding decisions should be made that will contribute towards the betterment of the breed. Folks here have nothing against anybody's dogs - only objections to what we regard as poor breeders and poor breeding practices, whether it's due to ignorance, greed, cruelty, irresponsibility, disregard for the breed's purpose, heritage, and usefulness, or whatever. You can learn a lot here but sometimes you need a thick skin to find what will help you among answers that may come from folks passionate about the breed and, sometimes, a bit blunt or rude in expressing their feelings, oftentimes over and over again, in an effort to educate. Kind of like real life. Stick around, even if you just lurk, to find out those things that will help you and your dog have a happy, healthy, and long relationship together. Very best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 NOT ONLY AM I AN IDIOT BC OWNER - I AM AN IDIOT BLOGGER - I MEANT THIS TO GO ON THE "WHY" QUESTION. sorry... OK, my turn to ask - "Why" to all of the above statements? You sound as though you are getting along well with your boy and that things are working out? I do have to laugh at the above, we've all responded to one thought on another thought post So, clue me in as to where we (the generic we on the boards) said you should not "own" a Border Collie? I am lost!! Also, what post should this have gone on? Maybe your confused and it was said you "should not breed" but I don't think "should not own" is what was said - wherever it was said. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Cody & Duchess, I've looked at every thread you've posted to, including the one you started, and can't see where anyone has said so much as a cross word to you, let alone said you should not own a border collie. On the contrary, I see people telling you "Welcome, glad you are otherwise having a great time with your dog!" and "Thanks for taking this guy in! You did a good thing." Surely you've noticed that the Boards are full of posts from people just like you, talking about the same subjects you are talking about. You seem to be laboring under some kind of a misapprehension, but from what you've written I have no idea what it is. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I was thoroughly confused ... I thought Cody & Dutchess was offended by this thread, so I sat here reading it a couple of times over and couldn't make the connection. Seems like she was talking about THIS thread. Cody & Dutchess, please re-read through that thread. I think you're taking offense where none was intended. Thank you for rescuing! It sounds like you're doing a great job with your dog. Please stick around. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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