BNM1980 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I hope no one objects to me starting a new thread. I feel it is justified because the problem I am having has taken on a whole new aspect. The problem now is that my puppy absolutely refuses to walk on lead. He can walk and run, though he still seems to have occasional spasms of pain. But when I put the lead on, even with the eliz. collar off, he sits and baulks. I have tried pulling the lead, but this doesn't work unless I am going to physically drag him. When he does walk, he is extremely skittish, slinking close to the wall, with his head down, as if he were afraid of something. I told you that when we picked Blake up from the vet on Monday (the day of the operation) we saw the vet hitting him. When we had words with him about that, he told us that we were being to soft and that when training we should even lift Blake of the ground by the lead, to literally choke him until he passes out. If we did that once or twice, he assured us, we would have a "good dog." We walked out in absolute disgust and found a new vet the following day for follow-up visits. I can't prove the vet choked Blake, but in view of Blake's behavior since, I am starting to wonder, and it makes me sick to my stomach. Could Blake's baulking on the lead be the result of abuse—choking and or hitting—while at the vet's? Might the vet have used his "training methods" while trying to administer anesthetic to a squirmy border collie puppy? I really don't know what to do. My dog used to love going on walks and could run around the park non-stop for a whole hour—and now he doesn't want to cross the living room. Our new vet said he's fine, the incision site is fine, and that Blake may just be especially sensitive. I am really upset about all this. He is acting like he's been abused, but I can't be sure it's not just what my new vet says—post-op sensitivity. I just want things back the way they were and wish that I'd never taken Blake in to be fixed. Any light you can shed on this problem and how to deal with it will be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I am so sorry that happened to you and Blake. I can't imagine a vet doing that or telling you that but then again I live in a pretty small bubble and don't get out much. If I saw someone abusing one of my dogs, I'd be hitting the roof right then and there. Why did the vet hit him? Did you question what the heck he was doing? I think I'd be going back there making a fuss but that's just me. I've never dealt with your story but have leash broke a few dogs. Which sounds like what you need to do. I'd wait till the surgury stuff is out of the way so you can be sure it's not causing additional issues. Only after the ecollar can be left off so you don't add any additional stress to his recouping time. Once you get that over, put a short small lightweight leash on Blake. Let him be. Don't pull on it, don't make a big deal, just let him get about the house while dragging the short leash. You might bribe him with a bit of food, but again, I wouldn't make a deal out of the leash. Act like it's not even there. After a while he should get used to it being on his neck, (this might take a while, don't hurry) once he's used to it, start to pick the leash up but don't tug it or pull it. Just pick it up and let him take you where he wants to go. Again, maybe a treat across the room to entice him to walk over to it. You'll be holding the leash with lots of slack. He gets to take you where he wants to go. If he just wants to stand there or sit there, let him. He should get used to it at his own pace. Keep going from there and you should have a dog that learns leashs are nothing to worry about. Good luck and I sure hope you find a good new vet! I do think I'd have to let the old vet know what I think of him. But that's just a crabby old lady's way of dealing with the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'd let that vet know right now. I'd also let the state veterinary licensing board know, and the AVMA. That's ridiculous, for a man to be advising anyone to choke a puppy till he passes out. And for a medical professional to hit a dog, a puppy? I might even email the Association for Pet Dog Trainers and see if they have any recommendations. I'd let whatever law enforcement agency does animal welfare know too. On to your current issue. I agree with Kristen, if you can, loose the leash for now. How much longer will he need the e collar? If you have to leash him to take him out to potty, get a new leash. Leave it on the ground. When he sniffs it, praise calmly, like Kristen said, don't make a big deal of it. Move it around the house so he keeps encountering it. Pick him up to take him outside, after you've put the leash on. Set him down and start walking, coaxing a bit with a chirp or even a cookie. Stay calm and low keyed. Tell him he's a good boy, because he surely is. If he absolutely will not walk, stand beside him for a few minutes. Try luring him to take even a step with a toy or cookie. Once he's taken just a few steps, praise/reinforce however you want to, then pick him up and go back in. Do the whole shebang again in an hour. Don't drag him, it's probably making it worse. If you can wait till the ecollar comes off, it will be a lot easier. And, massage his neck and wherever it was on his body that that a**hole hit him. When he's healed up from the neuter, I'd take him to your new vet, see if everyone can give him a pet or a cookie while he's there, and then leave. You'd want to check and make sure you can get him in when they're not busy. You want to make sure he has some great experiences with the new vet, so that he doesn't freak out when he has to go again. I'm steamed, for Blake and for you. Good luck, I hope the leash retraining goes smoothly and quickly. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silhouettestable Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Was there anyone else who overheard what the vet told you? Given what he said, the fact that he hit your pup and the way Blake is now acting if anyone can back up what you say I'd be filing some kind of complaint against that vet, maybe even talk to someone even if there are no witnesses and still put in a complaint. I'm glad you found a new vet but what about all the rest of the dogs and pups he deals with? Is he the owner of the clinic you went to or an employee? Can you talk to someone over his head and file a complaint with them, or with whatever body governs the vet practitioners in your area? I agree with bcnewe2 about letting him slowly get used to the leash again, letting him drag a short one around etc. Maybe in the meantime you could try walking him with a harness or halti or something that won't be restrictive on his neck, if that's what he has developed a sensitivity about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I agree with Ruth - tell every single organization that you can about this vet and your experience. But that is the way I am and what I would do. I would also tell every single person I know NOT to take their animal there. Find out what actions that you can take to get this problem addressed. You and your dog could save others from the same misery. I think that that the advice given about the leash by Ruth and Kristin is right on. I would also do anything with Blake that you can that he does enjoy doing. Anything to make him feel loved and like a puppy again. I guess kind of spoil him.... Going into your new vets office is also a great tip. Just take him in and let a tech or even the receptionist lavish him with pets and treat and then out the door you go. This really works. My mom's BC was a bit skittish in new situations when she first got her. So, whenever I could, I would pick up Ivy on they way to pick up my pup Daisy from day camp (which is at my vet's office). We would go in, Ivy would get some love, she would see her friend Daisy coming from the back area, and we would leave. She now happily goes to the vets office. Good luck and I truly believe in KARMA. This vet will get what they have coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'd let that vet know right now. I'd also let the state veterinary licensing board know, and the AVMA. That's ridiculous, for a man to be advising anyone to choke a puppy till he passes out. And for a medical professional to hit a dog, a puppy? I might even email the Association for Pet Dog Trainers and see if they have any recommendations. I'd let whatever law enforcement agency does animal welfare know too. I'm with you!!!! I'd be making such a fuss they'd wish they'd never seen me or my dog! GRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shoot, I got a vet one time for Scooter that was so inept and rude, when I left I told them I never wanted her to touch him again. If she was the only one I could see (out of 6 vets) I'd wait. And I tell anyone who's thinking of going there to avoid this vet at all costs. The rest of the people are great, but I think she was in the wrong profession! Still makes me angry to think about it! You don't hit puppies or babies!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 ...we were being to soft and that when training we should even lift Blake of the ground by the lead, to literally choke him until he passes out. If we did that once or twice, he assured us, we would have a "good dog." . OMG! Absolutely report him to everybody you can think to. This guy needs to be watched closely. As a VT in training (with a long way to go ) I can't believe the other professionals in the clinic/office can or would turn a blind eye to this animal cruelty. I'm so sorry this happened to poor Blake and you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Make a complaint. I expect as much care be given to my dogs as I get from my family doctor, I made a post about this the other day. I placed a complaint with the owner of the clinic I go to now. It was about an employee who was not a Vet giving me medical advise and opinions to me over the phone. If I am seeking medical attention for my dogs I expect it from a professional. I called and I wrote a letter. I got a call from the owner a Vet. He asked if I would bring my dogs in so he could examine them. We did, he examined my dogs personally along with an assistant and instructed us and his staff that when we call, we will be given an appointment with him within 25 hours or less. In an emergency of course sooner. He is a very good Vet. We were not looking for special attention or treatment, we were simply looking for the best care fro our dogs and felt we had the right to ask for that care from a Vet. You have the same right and in this case you have every right to complain. Who mentioned if not for your sake then the sake of every other dog that goes to that clinic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Well, everyone has certainly addressed what to do about the vet. So I won't add anything more there. I will address what to do with the pup, which would be my main concern at this point. First, I would not make a deal out of it--despite your gut reaction to act like, "Oh, my God, this poor pup has been so abused; my poor baby, yada, yada..." I would act, to the pup, like everything is just as normal as you can. If he's having a hard time on a leash, do you have an area, a small yard or whatever where you can have him leash-free? I'd keep everything very light-hearted and upbeat, call him to you, play with him as usual, etc. Then, when he seems to be coming out of his "shell" a bit, I'd gradually use the leash again, at first, just a short lightweight one, and just let him drag it as you do the same fun stuff. Don't even take your end of it at all at first. Slowly build back up to your pre-op routines. But the worst thing you can do for a dog who is lacking confidence or thinks it has been hurt, etc., is to make a big deal of those concerns. If it's not a big deal to you, the dog will read that, and it won't be such a big deal to him. If, in his presence, you can let it go (meanwhile, doing all the things others have suggested as far as reporting, etc.), then he can start to let it go, too. Not saying that this will 100% work for this pup, but they do read our body language, tenseness, when we're upset, etc. When I'm working a young pup on calves, and the pup gets a hard kick in the chops the first time, they usually look a bit confused and not sure how to react. Most look like they are considering leaving the work. (I don't blame them.) If I run to the pup, and make a fuss, "Oh, no--are you OK?" more often than not, the pup will not want to work calves again. If I just take a deep breath and say, "walk up" (keeping the pup on the job, which is totally hard to do), the pup just shakes it off, and then learns to duck next time. My 2 cents, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNM1980 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I am an New Zealander living in South Korea. The organizations you mention do not exist here, otherwise I certainly would report this vile man. Attitudes here in Korea are very different. Dogs are eaten, beaten, and in general, treated very badly. There ARE dog lovers, and good vets. However, I obviously drew a short straw with my first vet. He seemed like a nice man, but unfortunately, there was absolutely no way of telling. I should repeat that I cannot prove Blake was abused by the vet. I phoned him today and asked if he had hit my dog. Aside from the smack we saw—a moderate, open-handed smack on the rump—he denied hitting Blake, saying, "I had no reason to." There is another possible explanation for his behavior. When he was a few months old, for reasons beyond our control, we had to leave him with friends for a week. Other than that, he has always been with us—someone has always been at home. His second time away from us involved a traumatic operation and some smacking by a stranger. Is it possible he is afraid we are going to send him away or off for another operation, and that is why he is baulking when I put the lead on? It could be a combination of that and pain caused by walking, perhaps due to the improperly trimmed stitches I mentioned in the other thread. Perhaps the combination of all these things has put it into his head that, "Walking out the door leads to bad things." Today is Friday. The operation was on Monday. Blake still absolutely refuses to walk on lead. He can jump around and play, he pulls on the rope and can walk and run, but once that lead goes on he just sits and refuses to budge. This means I can't take him outside to go toilet, as he has been trained to do, and he has been trained not to go on the veranda, which is the only place we can take him if he won't walk on lead! It's a very distressing situation. Someone suggested "lead breaking" him again. The thing is, before the operation he was an obedient dog. He knows all his basic commands, recall, heel, loose-lead walking, etc. He knows what to do, he just refuses to move an inch. Our new vet—a lovely and very sympathetic female veterinary surgeon working at a new clinic downtown—is going to take his stitches out on Tuesday. I hope that Blake will pull through this. Thank you for all your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the further details, it doesn't seem that you have those options for recourse that we all mentioned. He was trained, but he's still a puppy, and the traumatic event plus the discomfort make him certain that 'leash equals pain'. Do the retraining methods, get him used to the leash as a non threatening item that does predict fun, not pain. If he's jumping around and having a good time generally, it shouldn't take more than a few days, even just one day possibly. Glad you found a vet that treats him better, and hope it all smooths out soon, Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I will apologize up front if this seems a bit harsh, but what I keep hearing you say is, "Oh, my poor puppy--he used to be so wonderful, and now things are just terrible. He's ruined." It seems to me you can do two things at this point: you can continue to dwell on how great he used to be, and how awful things are now, OR you can get on with your life with him, and find whatever ways/places you can to fix the situation and retrain him to the leash. It sounds as if he is acting fine other than with the leash, so, as someone suggested, retraining to the leash really shouldn't take that long. Try not using your regular leash. Get a long string or rope, something lightweight. Let him drag that around for a bit and get used to it--it may be enough different from his "leash" that he won't make the connection. Change the routine--just put that on him, and DON'T try to head straight out the door. Put that on him and just play. Let him get used to it inside first. Then, you might have to be a bit creative as far as his going out to do his business in the proper place. If he's on that long line, dragging it, can you get him to just follow you out to the appropriate spot? With you still not holding your end? Then let him go potty there--you don't necessarily have to be holding a leash for him to do so. He is a very young pup; they are extremely resilient; he is not permanently "broken." Lots of dogs have setbacks in their training, or pick up bad habits that we must then change, so going back to retain something, especially in a pup so young, is really not that big of a deal. Rather than devote so much time to analyzing why he's got the issue he now does, use your energy to fix the problem, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've been through several instances where my dog has suddenly become fearful of something - for good reason from the dog's perspective. I've found that with patience and a lot of self-control on my part (not to push the dog too fast), it is usually totally possible to help the dog get over those types of fears. In a situation like you describe (in addition to taking action against the vet), I would first start to make good associations with the leash. I would put it on the floor by the dog's food bowl, hold it in my hand when preparing my dog's meals, involve it - in a way that is neutral to the dog - in many good things that happen throughout the day. Once I could see that the puppy was fine with me having it with me, I would start to have the puppy interact with it. I would use a clicker to do some shaping games - shape the puppy to touch it with a paw, walk back and forth over it, etc. I would also do a game where I lightly touch the puppy's collar - mark, reward, release, until the puppy was actually leaning in as I touch the collar. Then I would start to attach the leash to the collar - mark, reward, unclip, repeat, repeat. At that point I would try attaching the leash to the collar normally and see if the puppy had made a new association with being leashed. If so, no further work would be needed. If there were still fear issues, I would go back and do more work along the lines that I described above. I've found this type of process to be effective, and relatively quick, especially if the sessions are kept short, pressure-free, and rewarding. It is possible, in many cases, to recondition a dog to make a good association with something that the dog has had a bad experience with - especially with something like a leash that the dog will have many, many good experiences with (at least my dogs do) over a lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNM1980 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thank you stockdogranch for your candor. I needed to hear that. And thank you and everyone for your advice. I'll try what you all suggest and report back to you in the next couple of days. I still think the stitches are causing some irritation. We played the "chasing game" today which got him running around a bit but he was constantly stopping with a whimper to try and lick his stitches. I think getting these removed on Tuesday will help. If not, then I'd be inclined to think that something went wrong during the procedure. Like I say, I'll post back next week with an update. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 When Scooter was only four months old, my husband had emergency surgery for an abdominal aortic aneurysm. We weren't sure he would even survive. I was at the hospital every day, for most of the day, for weeks. Fortunately, the hospital was about ten minutes from our home so I was able to run home and let him out of his cage every once in a while. Family and friends filled in when I couldn't. That was a serious interruption in our puppy training, which had been going wonderfully well. I worried that he might suffer ill effects from being confined for so long, with us not there, and when I was, I was usually answering phone calls and rushing back to the hospital to catch up with some doctor, so there was very little interaction with our new guy. He graduated with honors from puppy school while DH was still in the hospital. And true to their nature, when I did finally drag myself home at night, exhausted, worried and depressed, he was always happy and excited to see me and seemed to comfort me, even at that young age. When DH came home, three weeks after surgery, his activities were still very restricted, but Scooter would sit quietly beside him, sometimes for hours. And he never missed a beat. He hadn't forgotten anything we had taught him--if anything, he had learned a lot. And so did we about our little Border Collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Scott Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I still think the stitches are causing some irritation. We played the "chasing game" today which got him running around a bit but he was constantly stopping with a whimper to try and lick his stitches. I think getting these removed on Tuesday will help. Probably not a great idea to play the "chasing game" while the stitches are still in... Barb S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Another idea may be to try a harness... Change the 'picture' for the pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNM1980 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am very happy to tell you all that Blake has made a complete recovery. Between my last post and our visit to the vet to have the stitches out on Tuesday, I phoned a vet in New Zealand to get a second opinion. I described the situation (no swelling, no loss of appetite, just a dog that baulks and does not want to walk after about 10 meters of forward progress). She suggested that the stitches might be too tight and "pulling" when Blake tries to walk. It turns out she was absolutely right. The problem was the stitches. Our new vet removed the thick nylon stitches and told us, while doing so, that in her opinion they were too tight and there were too many of them given the size of the incision. As soon as they were out, I took Blake outside for a little test walk around the car park. He was unstoppable. I've never been so happy to see him bouncing off the walls. Thanks for all your advice and encouragement over the last week. I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hooray! Glad to hear it was such a simple fix and that he's doing sooooo much better. Thanks for the update. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Wow! Interesting outcome, and great future reference if this should happen again to another dog owner. Who knew stitches could be too tight and cause this sort of problem? Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Now there's another reason why this vet shouldn't have any business Totally inept, no compassion for animals and abusive training methods. Surely there's a body in South Korea that monitors veterinarians? But in regards to Blake, that's really great that he's ok now. Your instincts were right about him being in discomfort. Stick with this new vet; she sounds like a good one Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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