PSmitty Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 What I mean by very clear, without wanting to sound flaky, but here goes anyway, is they seem to be open, willing animals even the more serious ones. They've had no bad experiences and come to a human expecting only good things. They are very present. I've been around horses as well as dogs for years now and you can just feel the baggage they carry from not so great interactions with humans. Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to stop beating a dead horse here, because I think you've got your mind made up about rescues. But, I think many (most?) dogs who have had less than good experiences from humans *still* come to humans only expecting good things. It's in their nature, IMO. And it goes without saying that there is no reason to expect every rescue has had bad interactions with humans, but anyway... Perhaps you have looked at the link below already, but if you're serious about a working dog, I guess this would be a good place to start.http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/breeders.html I didn't want this bit of helpful advice lost in the shuffle. The link Georgia posted will help lead you in the right direction for working breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Flyer, Tell your DD that she can come over and help hose off then wipe 40 muddy paws (over and over again lately) any time she wants. and we have time for the boards because we've taught our dogs to have an off switch! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to stop beating a dead horse here, because I think you've got your mind made up about rescues. But, I think many (most?) dogs who have had less than good experiences from humans *still* come to humans only expecting good things. It's in their nature, IMO. And it goes without saying that there is no reason to expect every rescue has had bad interactions with humans, but anyway... I didn't want this bit of helpful advice lost in the shuffle. The link Georgia posted will help lead you in the right direction for working breeders. One should not assume things. My children and I have been scouting rescues in my province and the state below me well before coming on the board. It's the first place we started over a month ago. We looked at two single litters of pups and two single young dogs/pups at three different shelters. I still am perusing the websites, but I am not finding any dogs or pups that would be appropriate for us. Where I am getting the idea that a rescue dog may not be such a great choice for my family is from this board. You are very fortunate to have met only animals that come to humans expecting good things. I have been on the backs of many horses that do not and believe me that is not a lot of fun, though most turn around pretty quick. This has also been my experience with dogs, cats and birds. I have also put out emails to the very few working dog breeders in my province and the state below. I had also been searching their sites before coming on this board. Let me assure you, nothing anyone is posting here is going to waste. I've read every thread and site suggested and many more. Will I make the decision you seem to want me to make? I have no way of knowing. I'm certainly a socially conscious kind of gal, but ultimately it comes down to the dog. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Flyer,Tell your DD that she can come over and help hose off then wipe 40 muddy paws (over and over again lately) any time she wants. and we have time for the boards because we've taught our dogs to have an off switch! J. Hey, you've been having rain?! Now that's a good thing isn't it? Very dry there this summer and fall. I was there for just over a week for a horse clinic around Halloween. On the border of NC ad SC. Beautiful country. Now that amount of paws might give my daughter pause. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Will I make the decision you seem to want me to make? I have no way of knowing. I'm certainly a socially conscious kind of gal, but ultimately it comes down to the dog. Flyer I don't want you to make any decision that you're not comfortable with. I went into this discussion saying first off that I have NO problem with anyone getting a dog from a good breeder (my next dog could come from one). Get whatever dog you want, and for whatever reason you want, I wish you all the best. I have only wanted to address the tired notion that rescue dogs come with issues, emotional baggage or some behavioral problem that makes them less desirable or second class. Whether or not it affects your decision or changes your view, it just might give someone else reading something to think about. OK, moving on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hey, you've been having rain?! Now that's a good thing isn't it? Very dry there this summer and fall. I was there for just over a week for a horse clinic around Halloween. On the border of NC ad SC. Beautiful country. Now that amount of paws might give my daughter pause. Flyer Rain *is* a good thing, especially since we've been in a drought for a few years and ended last year something like 4 inches below normal. I just wish the rain gods would space it out throughout the year rather than having it all come at once and put us under water (not to mention the MUD) and then leave us high and dry in the summer months when the grass starts shriveling. There comes a point when it no longer does any good and just runs off. Fortunately the sheep have high ground they can stay on, but I can't just not let the dogs out, much as I'd like that option right about now. You know it's bad when I was looking forward to coming in to the office today (I normally work from home) so that I could avoid the dog walks and the muddy results (and the endless washing of dog towels)! Where were you for the clinic? Personally I think western Carolina (mountains and foothills) is the most beautiful part of this state. J. Oh, and if you haven't figured it out already, there are lots of current and former horse people on this forum. It seems people who ride also have an affinity for border collies! If you do any trail riding, you can train your pup when it's older to go with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I have only wanted to address the tired notion that rescue dogs come with issues, emotional baggage or some behavioral problem that makes them less desirable or second class. Probably a little off topic here, but our local t.v. station did a story the other night about all the animals that have been dropped off at the Humane Society in recent weeks. They interviewed one of the workers there and he said in one day recently they had taken in 20 pets (mostly dogs), and a lot of them from people feeling the economic crunch--lost their job, couldn't to afford keep their dog or cat, couldn't take them to the new place, etc. He said not to assume that all the dogs were there because they had "issues." He suggested that before someone relinquishes their pet, they should talk with the Humane Society and they could help find pet friendly housing, tell them how to convince their new landlord to let them keep their pet, etc. Then they showed the video of the animals in their cages, looking so lost and forlorn. Poor things. Not their fault. It broke my heart. I wanted to take them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Where I am getting the idea that a rescue dog may not be such a great choice for my family is from this board. That mystifies me. Most of the fervor with which people have posted recommending rescue comes out of their very favorable experiences with their own rescue dogs. Haven't you noticed that? You've already said that you can recognize whether a dog comes to humans expecting good things or not, so just don't take a pup--rescue or otherwise--who doesn't. I don't really understand where all this sturm und drang is coming from. You're looking for a good family dog, and it sounds as if a pup from litter #1 will fill that bill very well--as would numerous other dogs, rescue or not, working bred or not, border collie or not. But you and your family have seen these particular pups and fallen in love with them. I'm sure they are nice, and certainly the advice their breeder has given you is excellent. You asked here for advice. Some people recommended rescue, out of concern for dogs who need a home, and out of first-hand knowledge that there are many, MANY wonderful dogs (including pups) in rescue. If you remain "really hesitant to get a BC at a rescue" (as you said at the outset) because of your "personal feeling . . . that a clean slate would be a safer way to go than retraining, especially since I have children," you are naturally not going to take their advice. If you prefer to get a pup from a breeder, people recommended buying from a breeder who breeds for livestock work, mainly for the sake of the breed, because supporting that kind of breeder is what will keep the border collie the wonderful breed it is. If you love the breed and are committed to it, you want to see it keep the qualities that make it what it is, and those unique qualities have been produced--and can only be maintained--by breeding for working ability. Often people see the point of that and are persuaded by it, but it's generally not to be expected that someone in your position--looking to get a purebred border collie for the first time--would have that deep a commitment to the breed itself. That kind of understanding and commitment generally comes further down the road, with more experience and familiarity with the dogs. It would be great if over time you came to see it that way and wanted to support those who breed for working ability and not support those who don't. But it's pretty clear you've already lost your heart to these pups. So enjoy your pup and let us know how things go. I feel sure you'll be giving it a great home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hi, Flyer, Everyone's done a good job explaining puppies, breeders, rescue dogs, etc.. Just my personal experience: I had read "A Dog Year" by Jon Katz about a couple years before I got my dog. (Don't mean to turn this into a Katz discussion by any means. Flyer, if you'd like to read numerous ranting threads about him, search his name! ) Having read that book, which is full of warnings about why BCs so often end up in shelters, why BCs aren't necessarily great pets for busy people, etc., etc., I had made a firm decision not to take in a BC. I work 8 - 10 hour days and I'm really not an athletic type. So, I went the Petfinder route, searching all dogs in local shelters. I knew I wanted an adult dog because I really don't have the time to train up a puppy. I knew I wanted a rescue dog, because I liked the idea of knowing a basic personality type right off the start. I distinctly skipped over all dogs whose listings said "BC." Then a little pretty dog showed up at a shelter near my sister's house. Black and white. Too small to be a BC, I thought, and besides, he was a Puerto Rican street dog originally - surely he'd be some random mutt. Went to the shelter, fell in love, and BAM, tossed him in the car to take him home. When I got home and took him out of my car, he suddenly seemed to inflate - to grow to about 1.5 times the size he was in the shelter. Guess he'd just stopped cringing. Then, a couple weeks later, I was looking at pictures of different breeds, and lo and behold, there was a tri-color BC who was a twin to my dog. I actually wrote my sister a sad, disheartened e-mail, saying, "I purposefully did NOT choose a BC because I can't handle it, and now I think I've got a BC!" I panicked, assuming I'd have one of those insane, neurotic dogs you read about. My sister's advice was good: Relax. With kids and dogs, you can't predict what's going to come in the future. You deal with what you get. Come to find out, my boy is a very calm house dog. He sleeps the 8 or 10 hours I'm gone in his little bed. Never needed a crate. Never chewed. Never really herded. (Took him to sheep once, and the trainer laughed at him.) Content to do a couple nice walks a day and occasionally play soccer or hide the toy. He's got none of that manic energy or drive that people fear in the breed. He does have his issues - but they're very much like the issues other dogs in here, who were brought home as tiny puppies, have. I really couldn't say whether the issues spring from his genetics, or are left over from his early days as a street dog. Doesn't really matter; I'd deal with them the same way regardless. Anyway - don't stress too much about the "crazy breed" hyperbole. My dog and I meet other BCs not infrequently, and the dogs are all pretty normal, typical suburban family pets. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am wondering what provence you are in? I am in Sask. and your few working breeders comments made me think somehwere around here. the reason I ask is because there is a breeder here who look great on the surface, her dogs look goods, she health tests and competes(in sports) etc.. to come accross her you would things nothing was wronge. its because she hangs arond with good breeders, she knows what to say, how to respond, what questions to ask and exactly how to make herself come accross as a knowlagable responsable breeder. all is not what it seems however, what she says and what she does are very very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Just got caught up with this thread! Flyer, I started on this thread in the same boat as you, although I was a lot more stubborn and less willing to recieve advice, at first. These folks do care, and as you can now tell, they get a lot of flack and sad stories returned back to them, so I'm sure you understand why defenses sometimes pop up. No one knows more about the world of working border collies than this crowd. Chat up about breeders and such, and you'll find a gem of a puppy with time. My breeder came recommended from several people on this board, and half a year later, my little guy is finally coming home on Sunday. As others have said, you're going about this the right way. Don't give up! We're all here to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I just wanted to add that in response to these........ "Looking to get a border collie! Advice please..., Help! Advice please, might have to give up my boy..., =(" I have only been a BC Mommy for a little over a year and a couple of months....rescued a 3 month old from the pound....I am outraged...my Baby Dixie doesnt even think shes a Dog.. she still uses puppy pads in the house ( really funny story ) and I would NEVER let her go!!! I am soo mad right now I could spit!! Sorry I just had to get that off my chest!! Thank you.... Here is a pic of my Baby at 1 and a half years old;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 You asked here for advice. Some people recommended rescue, out of concern for dogs who need a home, and out of first-hand knowledge that there are many, MANY wonderful dogs (including pups) in rescue. If you remain "really hesitant to get a BC at a rescue" (as you said at the outset) because of your "personal feeling . . . that a clean slate would be a safer way to go than retraining, especially since I have children," you are naturally not going to take their advice. I am very open to education. Yes, I came feeling that a clean slate would be better for my family. After reading many threads on this board I now think I was right about to feel this way. There is a lot of disaster talk on the board. Maybe it is that way on all dog boards. I don't know. I frequent a horse board and it isn't like this. The disaster posts and all the warnings feed into the place in me that is uncertain and worried about making a mistake and having my children hurt. We have had a number of very significant losses this year, our dog being one of them. However, I also understand from some posters that there are possible good matches in the rescues and as I have said upthread I peruse the websites daily. I have very good reasons for wanting a pup sooner than later. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 These folks do care, and as you can now tell, they get a lot of flack and sad stories returned back to them, so I'm sure you understand why defenses sometimes pop up. I do and that's just fine Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Where were you for the clinic? Personally I think western Carolina (mountains and foothills) is the most beautiful part of this state. J. Oh, and if you haven't figured it out already, there are lots of current and former horse people on this forum. It seems people who ride also have an affinity for border collies! If you do any trail riding, you can train your pup when it's older to go with you. Rutherfordton and yes, I want to take my dog on the trail too. One of my riding buddies has a standard poodle who sometimes tags along. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I am wondering what provence you are in? I am in Sask. and your few working breeders comments made me think somehwere around here. the reason I ask is because there is a breeder here who look great on the surface, her dogs look goods, she health tests and competes(in sports) etc.. to come accross her you would things nothing was wronge. its because she hangs arond with good breeders, she knows what to say, how to respond, what questions to ask and exactly how to make herself come accross as a knowlagable responsable breeder. all is not what it seems however, what she says and what she does are very very different things. No worries, I'm not in Sask. and I am looking at a very respected knowledgeable breeder, just not working dog. Not agility or AKC either. As I said before only three litters this year, one a mistake and I asked today when the last was before that. Three years ago. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I had read "A Dog Year" by Jon Katz about a couple years before I got my dog. (Don't mean to turn this into a Katz discussion by any means. Flyer, if you'd like to read numerous ranting threads about him, search his name! ) Having read that book, which is full of warnings about why BCs so often end up in shelters, why BCs aren't necessarily great pets for busy people, etc., etc., I had made a firm decision not to take in a BC. I work 8 - 10 hour days and I'm really not an athletic type. Funny someone told me about that book today just today. I'll have to peek at the threads. Nice to hear another good news story. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMack Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Winnipeg? http://bcrescue.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3149 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMack Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 oooh, look at this one: http://bcrescue.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4082 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 ...one a mistake... Don't like that.... Just had to say... Whatever. Flyer, I wish you luck. I certainly wouldn't buy a pup that seemed to have an aversion to being held and exhibited manic chewing etc., or whose dam wasn't reliable with strangers. I think you will go with your gut. But I am concerned with the fact the breeder you are considering has had an 'accidental' litter. Concerning the bigger picture here, not sure why there are so many people lately looking for pups that 'must' be from a 'good' (whatever their idea of that might be; 'respected knowledgeable' and yet with an accidental litter?) breeder because then they are a sure thing. There are a lot of charlatans out there pretending to be "knowledgeable" breeders. Maybe its just me ... IMO, if I'm not relying on this pup to grow up and work my livestock or going to pursue "herding" as a serious hobby (where I would then consult people in the working world, make contacts and know that great working parents are at least an indication that the pups *should* also be great dogs and workers), my primary motivation is to save a border collie, whether it be a pup or an adult, rejected simply because it was being a border collie ... Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Concerning the bigger picture here, not sure why there are so many people lately looking for pups that 'must' be from a 'good' (whatever their idea of that might be; 'respected knowledgeable' and yet with an accidental litter?) breeder because then they are a sure thing. There are a lot of charlatans out there pretending to be "knowledgeable" breeders. Maybe its just me ... IMO, if I'm not relying on this pup to grow up and work my livestock or going to pursue "herding" as a serious hobby (where I would then consult people in the working world, make contacts and know that great working parents are at least an indication that the pups *should* also be great dogs and workers), my primary motivation is to save a border collie, whether it be a pup or an adult, rejected simply because it was being a border collie ... Ailsa This will be the last time I defend the breeder and my choice. I think perhaps I am on the wrong board. Even though there are folks that have assured me I am welcome regardless of where I decide to get my dog there are an equal number that display a frank disdain. This is a "working dog bred" board through and through and that's just fine and honorable. I know numerous people who have known this person for many years. I know two people who have bought their dogs from her in the past five years and they have wonderful dogs. As far as the mistake goes there is no one who regrets that more than this person. I've certainly made mistakes in my life and certainly worse than this. Thank you all for your advice and stories. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 ... IMO, if I'm not relying on this pup to grow up and work my livestock or going to pursue "herding" as a serious hobby...my primary motivation is to save a border collie, whether it be a pup or an adult, rejected simply because it was being a border collie ... Ailsa I can think of several reasons... 1) We missed our Leila dog, whom we raised from a puppy & who had tons of herding instinct, based on the one time she got to work sheep. A rescue might not have that instinct. A big part of what we missed was her intensity and focus. 2) A puppy from a rescue is more hit or miss than from a good breeder. While there are no GUARANTEES with any puppy, one from a good breeder is more likely to be both healthy and well balanced. Mind you, we took the rescue chance with our Aussie pup, and it seems to be working out fine. However, the ODDS are better with a reputable breeder - and a puppy from a reputable breeder shouldn't end up in rescue at 3-4 months. The Aussie came out of a puppy mill - no idea how his health will hold up. But we adore him like he adores us, so we're together for the long haul regardless. 3) Frankly, a lot of rescues don't work with people. We were approved for a mixed-breed, lower drive dog. Not sure of the reason, but if we wanted a low drive dog, we wouldn't look for a Border Collie. Rescues too often have been soured by all the stupid, uncommitted people who get rid of dogs. Earlier tonight, I read an old thread (2007) about rescues and kids, with many rescuers saying they either wouldn't adopt a dog to a family with kids, or would be very choosy in doing so. Our previous Border Collie was fine with our 2 young kids, and later was fine with our baby. (http://www.vailbs.com/previous_dogs) The 10 week old Border Collie at my feet right now is a little nervous around our 3 year old granddaughter (whose parents won't let her play with the pup since she is too rough), and is fine with our 11 year old daughter. The new pup plays hard, but settles well. At 10.5 weeks, he had his first night loose in our bedroom last night. I expected to crate him after an hour...instead, he went thru the night with no poop, no pee, no chewed shoelaces...kind of scary, actually. And when I stop playing with him and start reading on the computer, he usually curls up next to my feet. Rescues know their dogs. They do NOT know my family. They do not know my commitment, experience, etc - nor did they seem all that interested in learning. They decided what was right for me. At 50, I don't need that. Maybe it would be different if I were 20, but I'm too darn old to have someone decide for me what type of dog I can own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I have had nothing but fabulous results with breed specific rescue and I wanted to point out that it should be obvious that people do not seek out information in quite the same obsessive manner when there is a good thing as when there is a challenge. Of course there are stories of dogs that have some issues more often than not. It is because we can only say... ooooh my doggy came to me today with a perfect recall AGAIN.... so many times, it doesn't really generate a lot of discussion. Frankly I think it is silly to assume a discussion board is all doom and gloom. If you were to actually read the threads and understand you would see the eternal optimism and positive nature of the stories and responses. People come on and talk about their dog having "issues" which may be no more challenging than learning how to stop them from eating poop or being reactive to sound. Both training issues and not signs of significant problems. ALL dogs have quirks and issues just ask the 8 week old pup we trained up... she has been handled with love from day one and yet has her own personality quirks. The responses are generally kind and informative and basically revolve around teaching novice dog owners basic training theory and common sense practices that seem to have been lost in our society. I get pretty irritated by all the rescue bashing that has been going on lately and I really wish people with an axe to grind could come with a disclaimer explaining their personal "issues" and not paint rescues and rescue dogs with the same brush/perspective. I really hope that people some day learn to look beyound stereotypes and keep open minds. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Maybe its just me ... --- my primary motivation is to save a border collie, whether it be a pup or an adult, rejected simply because it was being a border collie ... While that is a good and honorable motivation, it is not the motivation of everyone who gets a dog. Nor does it have to be. Besides, there are more than a couple members here who have bought their first BC, then gone through rescue for the next. Just something to think about - If the OP had come here anouncing they had just bought a pup from a reputable breeder, there would be welcoming arms with all sorts of requests for puppy pictures, followed by many comments about puppy breath and cuteness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Flyer, You're not on the wrong board. Opinions are just that--opinions. Hang in there with us. Take away what works for you and discard the rest. You just have to be careful sometimes when you ask for "advice." The members will be glad to offer plenty of it. LOL! And here comes a little more--stop agonizing over this. Did you let other people influence your decision to have children, and how to raise them? Get the dog you want, from whomever you want and enjoy it. I believe you said originally (it's been so long ago) that you were not a novice at this. You had another dog previously. Go with your gut. It will all work out fine in the end. Whatever dog or puppy you get will be lucky to have a good home with you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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