New and questions

[bsms99]

bc4ever: when I previewed my post, I saw yours. You said it better! Dittos!

[Dixie_Girl]

Hmmm......well, I got a pup for a "sure" thing. Knew the parents, watched them work, both open dogs, excellent blood lines. Respected person in the Border Collie working world. My sure thing could care less about sheep, actually is skeered of them! Has several "issues", and a serious Napoleon complex. None of these things showed up when he was a pup. My other Border Collie didn't have quite the excellent blood lines, was the goofiest pup you ever met, made our house look like a beaver convention met here, loves everyone and thing he meets, and does a complete 180 when he gets to work sheep. So, yeah, a pup is a crap shoot. And thinking a pup growing up with younguns around them will make them love younguns, is giving you a false sense of security. I don't care whether you get a pup or rescue, just don't go into it believing getting a pup will give you just what you want in a dog. Remember, they are only pups 18-24 mos., but they are dogs for 12-14 years.

[Nepsa]

I will be frank here...

 

When I got my 1st BC...I was young and stupid. BUT I was lucky that the BC I got was a good match with me. The reason I said young and stupid was because I didn't do any research at all on the breed itself. It could have easily been a disaster story. I would think my story is very rare since I went into it without knowing what I was getting into and I lived in a place that didn't allow dogs either and had to move out. But I had my BC for 12 long years....she moved to every home with me. I moved around a lot and she moved with me. She was a great dog. There were no regrets there and no thoughts to give her up. I even bought a place when I moved to a dog unfriendly town that won't rent out to ppl with dogs just so I could keep Aspen.

 

Now I have a pup; Asker. My husband never gotten over Aspen's death. He loved her to pieces. He wanted to get Asker and I wasn't ready; so Asker is more of his dog. I miss Aspen but I'm grieving for her in my way. My husband got Asker three months after Aspen passed. He loves her to pieces. The difference is now we are older and wiser and we know what we are getting into. We do have 5 kids and the youngest is 2 and oldest is 10. Asker is a good match for our family even though our kids are under 12. We do a lot of hiking, camping, etc. Our lifestyle is very physical and we pretty much travel with the dogs in the summers and we go to dog friendly places too. We are going to enroll Asker in flyball next year when she's full grown. Asker loves Frisbee so I can see the potential in her to play Frisbee as well; she's a BIG jumper for sure. And one of my boys doesn't like dogs; but he loves Asker. She worked her way into his heart. He decided he likes border collies better; typical. He's hyper child.

 

I have to admire you for doing a lot of research.....I believe you know what you are doing and you know what is best thing to do and just follow what feels right. You can just weed thru the advices and decide from there....you can't just please everyone..not even me!

[sandra s.]

Concerning "disaster talk"...people on these boards enjoy a scare and a good worst-case-scenario . Mostly to warn people of existing risks, but it gets a bit one-sided.

 

Depending on one's interpretation of the stories posted here, one might also think that "loose dogs" generally have a mentality like Begbie out of "Trainspotting"; intact dogs are raving, drooling killers with bulging...erm, eyes; most dogs cannot survive without being crammed into tiny cages half the time; the roads are full of suicidal maniacs and the world is out to get us all .

I'm getting rather colourful myself here (because it's a pet peeve), but you get the picture! I don't know why things come across this way on the internet, they just do.

Plus, a lot of people come here specifically because they need help.

 

I could tell you for hours about my two "perfect" rescue dogs who have never let me down, even though I generally just dump them into new situations without any preparation or "research". I can't think of a single instance where either of them refused to (at least try to) comply with a serious expectation of mine. Of course they needed a bit of training (very little actually) to figure out what IS expected of them, but so does any pup. I don't fully understand why people resent the need of training in rescue dogs when pups need so much more of the same. But I think you've had enough of that kind of talk already, so I'll leave it at that.

[PSmitty]

Sorry, edited to remove post. Just never mind me.

[juliepoudrier]

Flyer,

Stick around. Do what you want to do with regard to a new dog. People are passionate here. That just shows that we all care about our personal dogs and the breed as a whole. I give you much credit for coming on and asking and listening--that's way more than a lot of other folks would have done. I will only reiterate that any dog, especially a puppy, takes commitment from the owner to make things work and to make the pup grow into a good canine citizen. You already know that, but lots of people don't, which is why you're getting so much of the "they're super energetic, blah, blah, blah." People who have been involved with border collies for a long time really do care about the breed, and much of what you consider "over the top" type comments here is just their concern and passion coming through. Get your pup and come back and share with us. (Maybe you'll get so involved/enamored with the breed thanks to that puppy that you'll end up being a rescue supporter too!)

 

J.

[afrancis]

Flyer,

 

Sorry if you have felt that this Board is not for you because of the 'doom and gloom', but I imagine you would also find the same tone on a dalmation board after 1001 Dalmations came out and everyone ran out and bought a dalmation puppy for their child . Many more than I can tell you that border collies have become very attractive dogs because of their intelligence, zest, energy and beauty and often wind up in homes with people that can't commit to their demands.

 

But, that's not you. You are an animal person and have had a dog before. You are committed enough to come and research, to read suggested threads, and to keep the discussion going. I really do commend you for that. The more a person speaks online, the more the existing community gets a sense of their situation, committment level, common sense, etc. Many come and go, but often not before a final thread dealing with having to relinquish their dog because it has developed into a source of frustration, anxiety or inconvenience for them and their family. Now multiply that by hundreds more that people involved in rescue deal with personally and you are left with a tone that may be somewhat guarded, skeptical and yes, even fear-mongering. (Last summer on a weekend trip we took to Kingston, we were sitting at a sidewalk cafe with Skye lying on the other side of the railing, when a family with two children approached and remarked how well behaved and calm our border collie was and how they must be great dogs for children. I felt the need to explain to them that they weren't necessarily so at all and that I had done a lot of training with her to ensure she was friendly, calm, well-behaved, etc. So if I kept them from purchasing a border collie because they thought it might be an easy family dog, I am glad.)

 

You came looking for advice about the breeder your first saw with the dogs that you liked, and any other general advice we could give. Lots of people here have spent lots of time sharing their opinions and experiences with you.

 

What you got was:

 

(i) Multiple suggestions to go the rescue route, even for a puppy, since many here do rescue and/or recognize that these dogs are not in loving homes (i.e. shelters) and need help.

 

(ii) Alarms that the breeder you were suggesting was breeding too many litters, was not breeding for 'working ability' (the only reason, in many peoples' eyes, that border collies should ever be bred -- you have acknowledged that you understand this) and had an accidental litter. You didn't mention whether this breeder was doing testing on the parents before breeding, to ensure their eyes, hips, hearing, etc. were not compromised.

 

(iii) Explanations that puppies are 'crap shoots', wherever you buy them from, hearing specific stories from individuals who have acquired puppies from excellent lines.

 

(iv) Recommendations that a young adult dog that is being fostered through rescue might be the way to go since they have fully formed personalities and can be matched well with your famiily.

 

(v) De-bunking the myth that rescue dogs are not necessarily 'damaged', require re-training or are all old.

 

(vi) Advice not to make a sudden decision because of grief (I did this when I got my Skye a week after my Riley died -- like parents, we suggest not doing things we've already done ourselves so I'm guilty here)

 

(vii) Numerous requests for your location (never answered - that's ok ), so we could better steer you to other local breeders or rescues that may help you with your decision.

 

(viii)The a-ok that we'll still talk to you no matter what you decide (that may or may not mean anything to you ) and to share your journey with your new dog, wherever it comes from and whatever age it happens to be.

 

Ailsa

[bsms99]

Explanations that puppies are 'crap shoots', wherever you buy them from...

I'm going to disagree somewhat with this. A crap shoot is pretty much pure chance. If puppies were pure chance, NO ONE would go to a 'reputable breeder', since breeding would mean nothing.

 

Puppies are more of a poker game. Skill mixes with chance, but the more skill, the better your chance. A puppy from a puppy mill/purebred rescue has a greater chance of health problems/personality disorders than one from a good breeder.

[PSmitty]

*sigh*

[afrancis]

I'm going to disagree somewhat with this. A crap shoot is pretty much pure chance. If puppies were pure chance, NO ONE would go to a 'reputable breeder', since breeding would mean nothing.

 

Puppies are more of a poker game. Skill mixes with chance, but the more skill, the better your chance. A puppy from a puppy mill/purebred rescue has a greater chance of health problems/personality disorders than one from a good breeder.

 

I'm no expert in craps or in poker for that matter, and genetics are something that I must have slept through in science class , but I would agree that if you have no idea of a pup's genetic heritage (several generations, not just one), then whatever that pup's inheritance is in terms of health and temperament will be unknown to you until it is revealed later in life. But a breeder who is doing so casually (i.e. is only aware of the outward temperament and basic health of the two parents, and not any further down the line), will have litters that may or may not be anything like the parents. This breeder could be considered a 'reputable' one because the dogs are considered pets, they are living in the house with the family, they are well fed and taken care of, only one visible breed is being reproduced, they are nice people and there are never more than one litter at a time (with a small number of litters per year). So a pup from this breeder will be well fed, well groomed, apparently healthy and sound, well socialized with people and no doubt, in the owner's and prospective buyer's eyes, a real winner. But not necessarily so; and you won't know until you begin to raise the pup, see how it responds in your environment and how well you are equipped to socialize and train it, and see what DNA it is in fact carrying and how that manifests itself in both behaviour and physical condition.

 

OTOH, I don't think you can lump puppy mills and purebred rescues together like that, no more than you can say all border collies are the same. Sure there are characteristics that are common to border collies (and that is part of the reason why we love them and others, perhaps, couldn't even entertain having one), but not all border collies in rescue are the same. Many (I'd even hazard to say, most) rescues, especially puppies, are happy, friendly dogs whose owners could not or would not keep them (that's my Skye, relinquished at 6 1/2 weeks after a rush purchase that lasted one week), while some others appear to be crazed little monsters, who would need a very firm hand to manage. In contrast, puppies from puppy mills are usually the product of parents that are so badly compromised, both in body and spirit, you are almost certainly going to get a dog that is infirm and/or behaviourally unhinged. And, it goes without saying that the people who rescue those dogs deserve a special medal for compassion and dedication.

 

So yeah, if you were to go to a breeder of border collies that someone from these Boards recommended (one with a proven track record in terms of health, temperament, skill, and soundness, who had been breeding for generations, and had consistently tested for genetic defects, etc.), that would certainly increase your chances of getting a sound dog. But there is no guarantee it would be the dog of your dreams, or even the dog you were hoping for. However, I think one of the things that makes this road more attractive is that these quality breeders will stand behind their litters and take dogs back if they're not the right fit. So a safer bet if things go wrong. But if you look at a dog from rescue, where its' beginnings are unknown, you may equally get a sound dog, or, quite possibly, the dog of your dreams. And no, I don't think the odds are stacked against rescue dogs if you don't know its background and there are no obvious signs of health or behaviour problems.

And we haven't even begun to talk about the role of environment versus genetics But let's not

Ailsa

[bsms99]

"...I don't think you can lump puppy mills and purebred rescues together like that..."

 

I'm told my Aussie pup came from a puppy mill. I'm assuming a well-bred puppy wouldn't end up in the Humane shelter at 8 weeks, so presumably my Aussie is not a well-bred dog. Yes, I understand that dogs do give birth in shelters, so some of the puppies from a shelter could have good breeding. Happily, Rusty seems to be both physically and mentally sound. At 5+ months, he's active and a charmer. Maybe I'm lucky. And maybe in 2 years he'll show signs of arthritis or genetic problems, and we'll have to deal with them.

 

When you get a young puppy from a shelter, you take a greater chance than if you actually meet the parents.

 

"...if you have no idea of a pup's genetic heritage (several generations, not just one)..."

 

The more generations of history you have, the better your odds. There is always an element of chance, but the odds of a screwed up puppy from 6 generations of good dogs may be 1/500, vs 1/60 for a single generation of knowledge, and 1/10 for a puppy mill dog. (I'm making up figures...the trend is right, but the actually numbers probably are not.) The actual numbers would also depend on how complex the genetic roots are of whatever you consider "screwed up".

 

When a pro-rescue person says puppies are a crap shoot, that overstates the case for rescue. It all depends on what odds you are willing to take.

 

When you talk puppies within a single litter, then I agree - it is all chance at that point. But the better the breeding, the better your odds. And someone who wants a puppy instead of an adult dog MAY choose to accept the chances (as I did with Rusty), or improve their odds (as I did with Jack). That is something the individual has to weigh and decide.

 

I believe in the work rescuers do. I support them. I'm glad Arizona Border Collie Rescue exists, and I value what they do. I just wish folks would also understand why people sometimes choose to get a puppy from a good breeder.

[Eileen Stein]

Yes, I came feeling that a clean slate would be better for my family. After reading many threads on this board I now think I was right about to feel this way. There is a lot of disaster talk on the board. . . . The disaster posts and all the warnings feed into the place in me that is uncertain and worried about making a mistake and having my children hurt.

 

I've been reading on these Boards for ten years now, and while people do disproportionately bring their dog problems here (not surprisingly), I have never read anything to suggest that those problems are commoner or greater with dogs gotten from rescue as compared to dogs gotten from a breeder. I say that not to try to push rescue on you, because--as I hope I made clear in my earlier post--I consider that a dead issue. I say it only out of fairness to rescue.

 

I think perhaps I am on the wrong board. Even though there are folks that have assured me I am welcome regardless of where I decide to get my dog there are an equal number that display a frank disdain.

 

That is a decision only you can make. If what you're taking from this thread is that half the people posting here disdain you, then I can see why you would not want to stay. I am sorry and very surprised, though, that that's the way you're reading it.

 

I do think that there's not much more anyone here can do to help you in making your decision about getting a pup.

 

--Eileen

[Pippin's person]

...I just wish folks would also understand why people sometimes choose to get a puppy from a good breeder.

 

It seems to me that the evidence on this thread (and others) suggests overwhelmingly that "folks" do understand this point pretty well, really.

 

So, I don't quite get your point here.

[ThunderHill]

Flyer -- It sounds like you've assessed your personal situation and done your research, and narrowed your options down to all good choices for your current circumstances. That's a great place to be, apart from getting the final decision made. :-) If your instincts are telling you that you'd prefer a puppy with a known background, by all means go for it! And if there's a particular puppy (or litter) that speaks to you more clearly than the other(s), I would listen and be guided by that. If you and the pup start your journey together with a mutual attraction, it'll be that much easier to get over the occasional rough patches that invariably come along.

 

I've been owned by a number of breeds and mixes and rescues over the years, and I've acquired my companions and working partners in a number of different ways. All of them have been good dogs. Three of my best performers (two purebreds, one cross bred -- all from totally different sources) have been from "oops" litters. But at the end of the day, my own personal preference (arrived at through experience, not theory) is that yes, I myself do prefer raising my own dogs (of any breed and background) from puppies.

 

And yes, when possible, I do also prefer to know where they came from. Just my personal preference.

 

It is possible to get a good pup from a known background from rescue. But to be honest -- they're rare.

 

There are some additional considerations in getting a pup from a known source, apart from the working ability gamble.

 

You know the dog's real birthdate/age. You have humans you can ask about the pup's parents/littermates, and their health and temperaments. You have a chance of getting to know other littermates and their owners. You have someone to go to with brags, as well as questions and concerns. (One of the great joys in life is sending off a Your Pup Growed Up And Done GOOD! message.) It can work out well even with mixed breed pups, if you're lucky. If your pup is a purebred, the amount of information potentially available to you (if you're interested) expands greatly.

 

Also, as far as comparing puppyhoodlums, I don't think Border Collie puppies are all that terrible, compared to other breeds. The two sheepdogs in my house now were both reasonable pups. The easiest pup I ever raised was my very first dog, an all-American Yellow Dog from the local dog pound. The Jack Russell/Bull Terrier cross (BYB's oops), the American Eskimo/Australian Cattle Dog cross (sloppy rescue's oops), and the two purebred Australian Cattle Dogs (devilspawn by intention) -- those were more of a challenge. <G>

 

Good luck to you, and may whatever you decide bring you and your family great joy.

 

Liz S

Gift, Joss, The Deuce & Baxter

[afrancis]

In contrast, puppies from puppy mills are usually the product of parents that are so badly compromised, both in body and spirit, you are almost certainly going to get a dog that is infirm and/or behaviourally unhinged. And, it goes without saying that the people who rescue those dogs deserve a special medal for compassion and dedication.

 

Okay, so its official. I am truly insane. Responding to my own post.

 

Just wanted to clarify --

I'm making a distinction between puppy mills (those nightmare scenarios you see on 60 Minutes or Oprah, where conditions resemble torture, dogs are found dead, and those still living, horribly inbred, etc.) and bybs (naive individuals pursuing breeding on a small or medium scale because they have a dog or two they really like and want to have puppies from and end up selling most of the litter through newspaper ads, friends and acquaintances -- not evil or delusional, but misguided and cavalier). But then again, this is just semantics really. I imagine the dogs rescued from horrific scenarios who are not adoptable (more than infirm, really, more like debilitated and possibly 'unhinged') are either euthanized or rescued by animal sanctuaries (like the one RDM profiled). The animals that do make it to the fronts of shelters and rescue groups are all considered healthy enough in body and mind to be adoptable - the only difference between their behaviour in a cage and in someone's home is simply a loving, caring owner. But then I think of Vick's pitbulls and how the vast majority of those dogs have bounced back and found loving permanent homes or are doing well in transitional foster care.

Anyway, that's it for me Couldn't let that go by...

Ailsa

P.S. Thanks Eileen. Agreed.

[Root Beer]

The debate between the merits of getting a rescue vs. getting a puppy from a breeder is interesting.

 

I have done both. I raised a puppy that I got from a breeder (yes, I was a newbie to Border Collies who had no clue and I not only survived, but raised an awesome dog!) and I have three rescues.

 

My reflections here are based solely on my experience with my own dogs.

 

1. There is something extremely special about raising a puppy from scratch, to know that the dog has never lacked for anything in his life and he is blissfully ignorant of the pain of sudden loss and separation from family/pack, to have the birthday, to have the papers, to know the dog's history, to have met the parents and know some things about them, etc.

 

I learned that raising the puppy myself does not mean I will have an issue-free dog. My breeder dog has emotional and mental issues - which are due to his brain chemistry, not anything I did. I learned that just because I raised the puppy and in some ways I did mold him into what I want, he is still an individual creature and he's not perfect just because I raised him.

 

Still, it's been a great experience having raised a dog from a breeder. I certainly hope to do so again someday

 

2. There is something extremely special about giving a dog from a shelter or rescue a home and a fantastic life. I absolutely love that I have had the privilege of making my rescues a part of our family and household and that they are able to have the best of lives. Yes, there are challenges. None of my rescue dogs are perfect, but truly, none is any less perfect than my breeder dog! And on some level I know for a fact that they understand that they have it really good!

 

I miss knowing them as puppies. I wish I had actual birth dates. I wish I had been able to raise each of them in the same way that I raised my breeder dog, but I am deeply grateful that, in spite of that, each of them landed with me later on in life. There is something unique about the bond I have with my rescues.

 

Yes, I've had to un-do other people's mistakes with these dogs. And, yes, there are some things I can't un-do and have to accept as part of the package. But I made mistakes with my breeder dog that I had to un-do and there are things I can't un-do with him, too.

 

Right now, I have a very deep appreciation for both choices. I absolutely think that those who choose Border Collies from breeders should do so with as much education as possible.

 

I can understand why, in spite of the overpopulation problem, people want to get dogs from breeders and raise them from scratch. I have this desire in my heart right now and I truly hope that one day in the future I will have the chance to do this again.

 

But I also understand why those involved in rescue encourage those who are looking to get new dogs to at least thoughtfully consider rescue. (I'm not saying that the OP didn't). And I understand why those in rescue vigorously stand up for rescue dogs. They are not issue-laden, hopeless dogs who can't bond or love or perform as well as dogs from breeders can. Rescue dogs can be phenomenal companions and sport partners. I will always have at least one rescue dog in my group - probably more. My home would just not seem right without them.

 

So, I "get" both sides since I'm kind of on both sides at the moment!

 

Flyer, this is a great board!

[JohnLloydJones]

I miss knowing them as puppies. I wish I had actual birth dates. I wish I had been able to raise each of them in the same way that I raised my breeder dog, but I am deeply grateful that, in spite of that, each of them landed with me later on in life. There is something unique about the bond I have with my rescues.

 

Puppies are adorably cute; which is just as well, because they have a tendency to leak at both ends, scream like a banshee and chew everything they can reach. Even if I could survive raising one, I doubt if my wife could -- and she was the one who was eager to get a puppy, not a rescue.

 

I am OK with not knowing Senneca's birth date -- we have her gotcha day to celebrate. I do wish I knew how she left what I am very certain was a good home (based on her temperament and house manners) and end up in the pound. She has told me that she traveled in the AC vehicle (the sight of which used to scare her witless). I wish I knew why she is seriously anti-smoking (she gets extremely agitated when she sees someone light a cigarette). I wonder how she cracked her upper left canine tooth (extracted at the shelter).

 

Whatever her past life, I am grateful that we found each other. Does she have issues? Yes, and I'm sure, if she could talk, she'd say the same about me! After a year and a half, it feels as if we have been together for ever; sometimes it feels as if our minds overlap -- subtle body language is the clue. Is she a perfect dog? No, there's no such thing, but she fits wonderfully into our lives.

[flyer]

I had to step back and breathe, but I want to respond.

 

JLJ you brought a tear to me eye. Your love for your dog is palpable.

 

Eileen said: "I have never read anything to suggest that those problems are commoner or greater with dogs gotten from rescue as compared to dogs gotten from a breeder. I say that not to try to push rescue on you, because--as I hope I made clear in my earlier post--I consider that a dead issue. I say it only out of fairness to rescue."

 

Two things here. 1. I think rescues are great!! My last dog was from a shelter and as I said twice now on this thread I have been checking the shelters daily for well over a month.

 

2. I think you're right about the fact that dogs can come with issues (nature) or develop issues (nurture) whether from the best breeder or a rescue. There are many stories on this BB to confirm this theory.

 

That is why I am looking in all the following places, working dog breeders, rescues and the breeder I have mentioned. I want a pup and I want a pup that fits our family as best as I am able to tell with clues from the breeders or rescue people. I agree it's a poker game. After my experience with one BYB I am not inclined to checkout any more of these as I don't think they can read pups as well. I know that's a huge generalization but it's just a hunch. I'd rather deal with a pro with years and years of experience.

 

Thunderhill, I give you credit for taking on the mixes you did. Holy crap and thx for the wishes for luck. Sounds like a little of that is needed.

 

I want to say again that I don't mind the pushes to rescue, (I HAD A RESCUE DOG, REMEMBER?) I don't mind the education on the working breed only and I don't mind the do you really want to deal with a puppy stuff. (I'm with you, eek;) When one comes to a community they don't know for advice and they are met with statements such as; beating a dead horse; oh, whatever; that's a dead issue anyway; look bad breeder made a mistake, one is apt to take those statements as personal attacks and not want to return to the board. It is only through reading other threads, other posters and pm's that a newcomer might come to understand why this "attitude" is hitting them. I understand and deeply respect the passion and good will behind the frustration of years of trying to save the breed or individual dogs, but I don't appreciate that frustration coming my way and quite frankly it can back-fire. To people who don't know this board or who don't have a context, it can come across as fanaticism or know-it-all ism and that can often make people dig in and want to do the opposite to be as far away from that as possible.

 

I'd like to stick around. I'd like to get a BC. I'd like to get a pup. I figure I'm going to need support and some help along the way. I also love the passion, wealth of knowledge, pic's and stories that folks are sharing. Where else can you talk about your wonderful dogs forever and ever?

 

JMHO,

Flyer

[bc4ever]

I had to step back and breathe, but I want to respond...I'd like to stick around. I'd like to get a BC. I'd like to get a pup. I figure I'm going to need support and some help along the way. I also love the passion, wealth of knowledge, pic's and stories that folks are sharing. Where else can you talk about your wonderful dogs forever and ever?

JMHO,

Flyer

I'm glad you decided to stay. You're going to be a good addition to our family. You've been "adopted."

[Mojo]

Flyer, I am going through a very similar decision-making process as you, so I am finding this thread both helpful and interesting since it covers many of the same questions I am raising in my own mind.

 

My Bichon of 15.5 years died in November. I currently have another BC mix, Mojo, that I rescued from the street as a stray 2 years ago. I don't actually believe I am ready for another dog at this point or even any time soon, and possibly even never, but I certainly have been thinking, looking, and researching the possibility out of my own grief and desperation over losing Godiva, which is partially why I've been reading this Board of late and happened to see your thread. In my case, much like you, I'm not sure if I am ready for (or want) a purebred BC, and if I did, I'm not sure where I would get one...like you, I have considered dogs straight from kill shelters, dogs from breed rescues, and dogs from breeders. I am considering both pups and adult dogs. At this point I have no idea what I want to do, and frankly, I am still not really even sure what breed or breed mix I want (i.e., another small fluffy lap dog, or another active herding-breed dog, or something else entirely, like a terrier)--but I certainly have given the subject of a new dog a lot of thought.

 

In any case, I wanted to add to this thread by telling my story, since I think it fairly presents this "crapshoot" to which everyone is referring....and, thus, what can happen despite the best-laid plans, when one simply has bad luck with BOTH a breeder puppy and a rescue. I think I must just have bad dog luck, which is also why I am hesitatingly strongly about adding another dog in the future at all.

 

Basically, these last few years have taught me that anytime you take in a living thing, and open your heart to loving it and caring for it, you just set yourself up for heartbreak.

 

1) I bought my Bichon as a puppy from a very reputable breeder, from champion lines, after seeing many litters over years of researching the breed and waiting for the right breeder, the right parents, and the right pup. Everyone who ever met Godiva loved her--we must have given dozens of referrals back to her breeder. I eventually showed Godiva myself in conformation, and we won the two classes we ever entered, and she also got her CGC. She had the most bombproof temperament anyone could ever ask for--good with dogs, cats, children, adults, baby birds, you name it. She never growled once in her life at anyone or anything--she was supremely fearless, confident, and naturally good-natured. She was even smart, trainable, obedient, and loyal--really, she was the perfect first dog for a child, as I was thirteen years old when I bought her. She had no major health problems during her lifetime, until she turned 12.5 years and was diagnosed with kidney failure. From that point on, I spent close to $20,000 on her health care, and completely redesigned my career and personal life around monitoring her 24/7. This past November I had to put her to sleep for end-stage renal failure AND a new brain tumor that gave her intractable grand mal seizures, so it basically was the most awful and heartbreaking end you could ever imagine. Even now, I feel that losing her is the single most difficult thing I have ever gone through, and yet, I still would give anything to have her back--despite the heartbreak, despite the sacrifices, despite everything.

 

2) I found Mojo wandering down the street in late 2006. We thought he was about 4 years old at the time, and so he is about 6 years old now. As a mixed-breed, he could not possibly have come from a reputable breeder. He certainly SEEMED and LOOKED healthy when I found him, and although smart, loyal, very biddable and very devoted to me, he definitely arrived with major behavioral issues: i.e., he is EXTREMELY leash-reactive with other dogs, and extremely suspicious of human strangers. I have pretty much been in constant self- and professional training with him once I discovered the problem, and multiple professional trainers have told me that they were impressed by my perserverance, since most leash-reactive dogs are not reactive to the "extreme" that Mojo is (i.e., he is completely and totally fine with everyone once he is off-leash, but when that leash goes on, it's like a light switch flips). Anyway, once I discovered this, I knew that no rescue would take him because of his aggression, and if I put him in the shelter, he would have been swiftly euthanized. So, I really had no choice but to keep him (although I did advertise for his owner for 3+ months to no avail, but it was pretty obvious why he had been dumped--no one could deal with him). Nevertheless, as Godiva already had kidney failure at the time, in order to TRY and avoid further heartbreak by adopting another chronically ill dog, before I officially decided to keep him, I went ahead and tried to protect myself by getting a COMPLETE blood panel, urinalysis, and spine/hip x-rays, as once I found out how easy he was to train and how agile he was, I intended to do agility with him (and compete, if we could ever get over his leash reactivity), and thus have him be my first agility dog. All medical tests came back normal, including his hip x-rays.

 

Four months later, he started having strange seizures--that, after a multi-thousand-dollar workup, turned out to be very rare non-epileptic seizures called "paroxysmal dyskinesia" that are apparently only found in purebred Chinook dogs, which Mojo is most assuredly not, and as there is no approved treatment, there is nothing we can do about the seizures--but admittedly, he has them infrequently (one seizure every 2-3 months). Two months after that he came up lame in the left front leg, and a new orthopedic workup of his front assembly revealed minor arthritis in the left front carpal joint. I rested him 6 weeks and he did not go lame in that leg again, and so we continued agility (in PRIVATE lessons at $60/lesson because of his leash issues with other dogs) and that seemed to be doing well. We made it through the winter of 2007 into the spring of 2008, at which point our trainer thought we were ready to compete. So, I added group agility classes to try and get him used to the environment of being around other excited dogs, and because of all the other counterconditioning we were doing outside of agility, we were actually doing okay with that and things were looking promising for fall/winter trials!

 

Then, in mid-2008, he suddenly became apprehensive of going to agility class, and we assumed it was because of his emotional issues, since he could run/jump as fast as ever if he was at home, in the dog park, or anywhere but agility class. Shortly thereafter Godiva started to go seriously downhill in terms of her health, so agility with Mojo was forced to take a backseat to Godiva's care, and I also figured that resting Mojo from agility might help with whatever issues he might be having. After Godiva's death in November 2008, I started re-focusing my attention on Mojo, so I took him to a chiropractor and also started doing hydrotherapy with him *just in case* there were some new physical issues that were causing him to be hesitant about agility that were adding to his emotional stress. After several sessions, the chiropractor CLEARED Mojo for agility...that was two weeks ago.

 

This past Monday, I took Mojo to his first full agility practice in public since the end of last August (i.e., we have some equipment at home, too, and he was fine with doing those obstacles), but after doing the weaves 3 times and going over 3 jumps at the practice for about 2 minutes, Mojo suddenly ran off course, INTO HIS CRATE, and WOULD NOT come out. Obviously I was alarmed, decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and rushed him straight back to the chiropractor on the next day, Tuesday. She was surprised to find that his pelvis was completely out of alignment despite his seemingly being fine the previous week, and so we decided it was time for new hip films. Guess what? Tuesday I found out that Mojo has HIP DYSPLASIA IN BOTH HIPS, with the right worse than the left, DESPITE his previously fine films in 2007, and although the dysplasia appears to be mild on x-ray, he obviously exhibits pain during the physical exam when both hips are extended, and so in one fell swoop, after all of our hard work, it looks like agility is now permanently out of the question for him. Bascially, the dear boy tried to weave, run, and jump for me as long as he possibly could until he just couldn't do it anymore--he was just so tough and eager to please that he really didn't show it until now. Imagine the guilt I feel.

 

So, in total, I have probably spent another $10,000 on Mojo these last two years for his various orthopedic issues and seizure workups. This number, of course, does not include what I have spent on training/lessons/equipment, and doesn't even include other strange health occurrences (like the UTI--in a neutered male dog!!--that he developed in November, 2008) that still remain unanswered questions, and who knows what the future will reveal in terms of those answers?

 

If you had to ask me, knowing what I do now, if I would have still picked up Mojo from the street, of course I would say that the answer would still have to be YES--I just don't think that I could have lived with myself knowing that one dog's demise was the direct--or even the indirect--result of my not doing what I could to help him. But by anyone's standards, I unwittingly signed up for a LOT when I decided to keep him, despite my best efforts to avoid problems in terms of long-term behavioral and chronic health issues. Considering that I have only known about his hip dysplasia for the last four days, I still don't even know how I really feel about all this except that I am still in shock, and devastated that all of our hopes for agility have been dashed, and that his promising agility career ended before it ever really begun, and I am fearful as to how his dysplasia will worsen over time and how that will impact his quality of life. Essentially, now I still have a VERY active dog, both physically and mentally, except that I no longer have an agility outlet to expend that energy....so I really have no choice now but to focus on obedience and rally and tricks, except of course that we will never get beyond Novice since we won't be able to do the jumps in Open. And that is if we ever get over his leash-reactivity in any sort of reliable fashion. Don't get me wrong--I love Mojo to death, literally, and he will always have the best possible home with me for the rest of his natural life--but trust me, it has NOT been easy keeping him or training him, nor has it been cheap.

 

In short and in conclusion, it is all very heartbreaking. Both my two dogs, a breeder pup and rescued stray, have both been heartbreaking to date. But admittedly, Godiva was problem-free, both in terms of behavior and health, for 12.5 years before all of her medical issues began, while Mojo was a problem from the beginning with his leash reactivity and his rapidly developing health issues.

 

Nevertheless, I have to say that, for the record, I DO feel that if I do go the rescue route with a future dog, I am confident that I have the skills and instinct--given the choice, rather than having a dog suddenly thrust upon me, as Mojo was--to be able to select an adult dog with a temperament that would suit me and my family--I really have no doubts about that at all. As I have enjoyed trying to go herding (work stock, whatever you want to call it) with Mojo, if I were to get a BC, even from a rescue, ideally, I would want one with working instinct/ability, and I do think that if I wait long enough, that dog can be found. I am, however, genuinely and seriously worried about the potential health issues that may crop up with a dog whose background is unknown. As I stated, I found Mojo as an adult--in seemingly great health--and I paid for a complete workup for Mojo in 2007 that seemed to prove that thought--but in 2008, only 1 year later, everything has already gone to heck....so, as has been repeatedly stated, there ARE no guarantees--only probabilities, and at this point, I have no idea what to bet on in the future.

 

RESCUES ASIDE, as has been previously stated, it is ludicrous to think that a BYB-bred puppy would have the same chances of being healthy (and having a good temperament) as a puppy from a reputable breeder--or else, why not buy from a BYB? Obviously, BYBs are not supporting the goals of the BC as a breed (in terms of selecting for working ability), and in terms of responsible dog breeding in general, it is also doubtful that the majority of BYBs do hip/eye clearances on their breeding stock, and also may not be selecting for off-switches, stable temperaments, etc., etc., etc. Obviously again, this is why no reasonable person supports buying a pup from a BYB......but if that BYB-bred pup should end up in a rescue--because one could possibly also assume that an uneducated puppy buyer who bought from a BYB may not have the commitment to see that pup through the rest of its natural life, and might be quick to turn over the pup/young adult to rescue when the going gets too tough--suddenly, adopting that pup or young adult is encouraged, IF IT IS THROUGH RESCUE....but the pup has already been bought and paid for and the BYB has made his money, and that pup is still, at the end of the day, the same BYB pup that it was when it was bought. Of course, THROUGH RESCUE, one is saving a life, and that is the most important thing, but that still does not change the fact of that pup's BYB heritage, nor does it make it any easier for the family that will adopt that pup, love that pup, and then *possibly* become heartbroken if that pup should have the bad luck to grow up to have the very problems for the reasons that people are warned about with BYBs.

 

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING ALL RESCUE DOGS HAVE PROBLEMS--far from it!! I also do fosters for rescue, and it is extremely rewarding, and I can swear up and down that the recent foster I had was one of the most delightfully temperamentally stable dogs I have ever personally known--DESPITE coming from an irresponsible situation. But since it cannot be stated that irresponsible situations make good dogs, the only way of looking at it is that through sheer LUCK of having great genetics, this dog happened to be a wonderful dog--not because he was raised properly or bred properly. But who knows where this dog will be in terms of health, 5, 6, or 10 years down the road? How could anyone honestly say that a well-bred pup from a reputable breeder that comes from long, long lines of dogs who all lived to 17+ years and were still actively working sheep to the day they died has the same chances of developing health issues as a dog who was born in hoarder's yard, as my foster was??? It's not to say it doesn't happen--I'm more than quite certain that it does--but as with everything, once again it really seems to come down to luck, and to date, by anyone's standards I have been horribly unlucky with my dogs, so I am doing my best to try and make the right decision now, to SPITE my bad luck.

 

In an ideal world, I would like to find a puppy or dog with a KNOWN background from a rescue. But again, how many reputable breeders let their puppies end up in shelters or rescues? In the 2 years I have casually/intermittently browsed Glen Highland's BC rescue site, I have only seen one reputable working-breeder dog listed by name, and I think it was only because the breeder had died and thus could not take the dog back. I just don't know. I think what is GOING to happen is that no matter how much I plan or agonize over the decision, I am going to get suckered in by the first sorrowful face that desperately needs me when the time is right--i.e., when I am emotionally ready to have a new dog again--and I can only hope that fate will see fit to give me at least a FEW blessed behavior-and-health-problem-free, agility-filled years before that dog becomes old and gets sick. At least I hope.

 

I don't know if that helps you any, Flyer, but that is where I'm coming from. I certainly wish you a LOT of luck with your decision--at least more than I've had myself.

 

--Koi

[flyer]

I don't know if that helps you any, Flyer, but that is where I'm coming from. I certainly wish you a LOT of luck with your decision--at least more than I've had myself.

 

--Koi

 

Koi,

 

I think you might still be in the midst of grief and not yet seeing how incredibly lucky you were with Godiva. She developed health problems in her senior years. Don't we all? My Piper was leaky by 12, deaf and arthritic by 14 and blind by 16 and I have to say that dog never had a grumpy day. I medicated and supplemented her for her pain issues as directed by the vet and I helped her through the transition periods when she would be a little stressed and needed my constant presence and comfort, i.e. when her final eye went she wouldn't go for walks anymore, but then she would still go out in the yard and walk the fence line for twenty minutes or so a few times a day. We do the best we can and it sounds like you did so much to help Godiva through.

 

With Mojo, you did all the right things too but that was just damn bad luck!! Life is like that. Quite a few people, one very recently, have said to me, it's how we deal with those challenges that make our lives what they are. I don't think Mojo will miss the agility. he's made that pretty clear. He will be happy to be loved by you and have his exercise.

 

Take your time. You'll know when you're ready and I think it sounds like you know where to look so that you will feel most confident and not worry. A reputable breeder. I think that is the thing really and Bob alluded to it when he said no one but you can know your family. We all have to do the best thing for our situations at this point in time. In five years when my kids are in university I may start fostering dogs for rescue. I think I would enjoy that but my kids could not handle that and so not now.

 

BTW, as I write this my DD's friend's 5 mos. old bichon pup lies at my feet. We get to babysit him quite often. What a little smartie he is!!

 

Flyer

[flyer]

I'm glad you decided to stay. You're going to be a good addition to our family. You've been "adopted."

 

Pshaw.

 

Thx,

Flyer

[Eileen Stein]

When one comes to a community they don't know for advice and they are met with statements such as; beating a dead horse; oh, whatever; that's a dead issue anyway; look bad breeder made a mistake, one is apt to take those statements as personal attacks and not want to return to the board.

 

Okay, once again I have to say I just don't get it. I'm the one who used the phrase "a dead issue." I said it because I wanted to make it clear that my post, though it discussed rescue, was not pushing rescue. This was after you had repeatedly said you "feel" and "think" that rescue is not right for you here, and had posted, "This will be the last time I defend the breeder and my choice." I took "my choice" to be a statement that you had settled on taking a pup from Litter #1, which confirmed the strong impression I had derived from the entirety of your posts. You have every right to make that choice, as people have repeated over and over again. How my saying "a dead issue" in that context -- or how any of the other statements you cite above -- can be read as a personal attack on you is absolutely beyond me.

 

I really hesitate to post this, because I don't want to do anything to prolong all this, but I am proud of the patient, informative and respectful efforts that posters made to be helpful to you in this thread, and I don't like to see their efforts disparaged.

[stockdogranch]

This is slightly OT, and I guess directed at Mojo more than anyone:

 

Life is a total crapshoot; there are just no guarantees in any of it. I understand your grief over Godiva; I truly do. However, and maybe I'm just a Pollyanna here, but rather than be bitter or upset or sad or mad or whatever the word is over the bad luck you've had with the past 2 dogs (and, really, Godiva just became ill as a senior, which, as noted, we all will probably do), why not just appreciate the time you've had with them? Didn't you have some really great times with Godiva? Haven't you and Mojo created some wonderful memories? When we take on a dog, we know going in that we will outlive them by a LOT--it's just one of the rules of the game. But I prefer to look at the animals that share my life as a gift, and I figure I must have done something at least reasonably OK for the Universe to have allowed me to share my life with them. I appreciate each day I have with them, and am thankful for having them in my life to teach me all that they do.

 

Flyer: You'll end up with the right one, however you decide. Maybe don't think about it so much, just let it be,

 

As for all the other, I have nothing more to add.

 

So much for my philosophy...

A

[flyer]

Okay, once again I have to say I just don't get it. I'm the one who used the phrase "a dead issue." I said it because I wanted to make it clear that my post, though it discussed rescue, was not pushing rescue. This was after you had repeatedly said you "feel" and "think" that rescue is not right for you here, and had posted, "This will be the last time I defend the breeder and my choice." I took "my choice" to be a statement that you had settled on taking a pup from Litter #1, which confirmed the strong impression I had derived from the entirety of your posts. You have every right to make that choice, as people have repeated over and over again. How my saying "a dead issue" in that context -- or how any of the other statements you cite above -- can be read as a personal attack on you is absolutely beyond me.

 

I really hesitate to post this, because I don't want to do anything to prolong all this, but I am proud of the patient, informative and respectful efforts that posters made to be helpful to you in this thread, and I don't like to see their efforts disparaged.

 

 

I don't want to keep going around this either, but I do want to be understood. I'm sorry I didn't make what I meant by "my choice" clearer. I meant any choice that I make. Since I had posted repeatedly that I was looking at rescues, working dog breeders and the pups we had already seen I thought this was clear. I can't explain why I felt my opinions and choices were being judged and rudely dismissed anymore than I have tried to in my last post. Maybe I'm just a sensitive one that works best off little pressure.

 

I certainly hope I have not disparaged any of the patient, informative and respectful efforts that posters have made. I have expressed my gratitude many times over.

 

Respectfully,

Flyer