New and questions

[juliepoudrier]

It was stated repeatedly by rescuers in Ironhorse's "Trial by Fire" intro thread that the rescue's are full of second class dogs with problems bred by BYB's and puppymills.

 

I think you're confusing the intent here. I don't think anyone ever meant that dogs in rescue are second class dogs in and of themselves, but that such dogs are generally being bred for the wrong reasons, nor that all rescue dogs have problems. The fact that there are so many dogs in rescue is a direct result of the popularity of the breed, and thanks to supply and demand, BYBs and mills have stepped in to meet the demand. People want a border collie, get one (instant gratification) from less than stellar breeders, then find that they can't or don't want to handle the intelligent, active pup they bought and off it goes to rescue. As the philosophy of this board is that only dogs that have been proven as stock workers should be bred, it is natural that we would also give the impression that border collies bred for something else are somehow less. That doesn't mean that individual dogs owned by individual people are lesser, but that the pervasive attitude of breeding the dogs for something other than the purpose that was used to develop the breed will change the breed, and the border collie traits that attract so many people were/are established by continuing to breed for those traits (the whole working package), rather than for pretty colors, or good pets, or show dogs, or flyball dogs, etc. Individual dogs in rescue are generally good dogs--at least as good as any pup being bred by a breeder who is not breeding for the whole stockworking package. IronHorse's intro thread was a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, he was helping a mill by creating and maintaining her website for her, and once he joined this forum and realized what was going on with that particular breeder, he stepped in and did the right thing. That should have been the takeaway from that thread. I don't remember exactly what the woman was breeding, but I suspect it was for multiple colors and the like with no real regard for the whole package that makes a border collie a border collie. Does that mean that any dogs from her place that went into rescue automatically had problems or were lesser? No, it just means that her breeding practices weren't the best for the breed as a whole, and IronHorse took the steps necessary to make sure she didn't continue doing that.

 

It is also said that most normal families can't handle BC's.

 

If you consider that most normal families are more like the couple depicted in "Marley and Me" when it comes to their knowledge about dogs and the raising thereof, then that's correct. You are already miles ahead of "normal" (maybe the phrase "average potential dog owner who doesn't realize that work is required to raise a canine good citizen" should have been subsitituted for the word "normal") in that you are doing research and asking intelligent questions, so don't take that comment to heart for your circumstances. But if you stick around here long enough you will see all sort of amazing excuses that people relate for giving up their dogs, and most often it's just that the human didn't want to put the effort in that is required to raise and train a dog to make it a good family member. It's those types of people that are being described with the term "normal family."

 

Most of the rescues won't let you adopt if you have kids under 12. My son is 11.

 

And some will, especially on a case-by-case basis and in a situation where the child is close to the acceptable age. At any rate, most of the folks who have posted to this thread, while commenting in support of rescue--largely in an attempt to dispel the misconceptions about rescue that you admitted you might have--have also stated that if a puppy is what you really want, then a puppy is what you should get. They just also cautioned that pups are unknowns, and so getting a puppy gives you no guarantees, a true statement that isn't meant to turn you off puppies but rather to make sure you understand that no matter what you see of the parents, etc., there are no guarantees that the pups will be just like that.

 

Then I read another rescuer in the "Why are BC's so neurotic" thread say that you can live in an apt. and give a BC a great home and yet the website is very cautionary and sounds quite the opposite.

 

The reason for this goes back to the "normal families/people" comment above. Any dedicated owner can make any living situation work. When you visit rescue sites, they are likely to imply that certain situations aren't ideal because for the average pet owner who doesn't have the time or dedication to make it work such situations *aren't* really ideal. When you're talking to the masses as it were, it's better to err on the side of caution than to offer an overly sunny view of how easy it is to take care of a border collie, or any dog for that matter. None of this stuff is written in stone in other words.

 

Wanting a border collie and having children that want a border collie is proving to be a challenging thing. Like Ironhorse, three yrs. ago, I really love this person's dogs.

 

You have to do what your heart tells you to do. While many of us may disagree with you about your choice of breeder (and Ironhorse ended up rescuing the dogs as far as I know, but certainly if he bought one he did so before knowing what she was), no one is going to drum you off this forum once your choice is made and in fact I'd guess that most folks would continue to offer advice and encourage you to post pictures, etc. once you have a pup home. We often respond to threads like this to reach a larger potential audience than just the person (iin this case, you) posting, which is why people will bring up the issue of breeding responsibly, etc.

 

I think the searching for a pup is also tapping into our grief over losing Piper and so we are all a little needy in the I want it now dept. Seeing and playing with those pups brought a great deal of joy and comfort to all of us and remember we had visited at least five litters of other breeds and mutts in the weeks before this.

 

Remember, it's your decision. I would just caution against a "I want it now" approach from anyone looking to buy a puppy. As long as you are looking at those particular litters with your eyes well open and not buying out of impulse because it's there in front of you and you must have it now, then that's all anyone can really ask. We can hope you'd look further, but what you do is ultimately your own business.

 

ETA: I was interrupted in the middle of my post and I see that others have since addressed your comments as well. I'm leaving this here anyway since I took the time to answer.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

It was stated repeatedly by rescuers in Ironhorse's "Trial by Fire" intro thread that the rescue's are full of second class dogs with problems bred by BYB's and puppymills.

 

It is also said that most normal families can't handle BC's.

 

Most of the rescues won't let you adopt if you have kids under 12. My son is 11.

 

Then I read another rescuer in the "Why are BC's so neurotic" thread say that you can live in an apt. and give a BC a great home and yet the website is very cautionary and sounds quite the opposite.

 

If you ask different people, you're going to get different opinions. I don't remember or haven't read the "Trial by Fire" thread, but just because some rescuers feel that way, doesn't mean that we all do. "Second class" dogs? I don't even know what you mean by that. I have 3 rescues and certainly wouldn't consider them second class. I bet none of us with rescues do, so I find it hard to believe that that is really what was being said. But, that's just me. Only one out of my three has "issues" and honestly, who knows where they came from? As it has been stated before, getting a puppy from a breeder (or a puppy, period) is a crapshoot. You can do your best raising a dog and still end up with "issues", there are no guarantees.

 

Again, no problem if you want to go to a breeder. But I am so tired of hearing how rescues MUST have something wrong with them, they come with baggage or issues, etc.

 

As for rescues not adopting to homes with children or to people living in apartments, that will be up to the individual rescue's policies. Trust me, if you wanted to rescue, you CAN find a border collie and adopt it regardless of the size of your house, or the age of your children. All rescues do not have the same policies.

 

And Angie and I both already pointed out that puppies are available in rescue. Going the rescue route does not mean you can't still get a puppy.

 

BTW, the last rescue I pulled from a high kill shelter? 12-15 weeks old. Adopted by a family with two young children. *shrug*

 

ETA: I'm so slow that I see Julie and Tania addressed this much better than I did, before I did. Oh well, what's one more?

 

ETA again: Outstanding post, Julie! *claps*

[bsms99]

If you want to see why folks here get pretty intense - and if you can handle some heartbreak - read these old threads:

 

Looking to get a border collie! Advice please..., Help!

 

Advice please, might have to give up my boy..., =(

 

However, you seem like a vastly more level-headed person - by a couple of orders of magnitude! I'm sure you'll make a good decision for you and your family. Whichever route you go, stick around...there are some very intelligent & knowledgeable folks here. And then, there are the rest of us!

[kaos]

I would just like to point out that rescuing a possibly BYB dog is FAR better than purchasing it from said "Breeder". When you purchase an animal you are in effect telling the breeder, not only that you condone their breeding practices but also that they have found a viable market, thus encouraging them to continue producing more dogs. By getting a dog from rescue whether BYB or not, the breeder has not made any money and may not continue in that shameful line of work.

 

You speak with your wallet. If you are certain you would like a puppy and wish to demonstrate how delayed gratification works when making an informed and well planned purchase, to you son, then the board members may be able to privately pm you about respectable breeders that have litters available or are expecting.

 

An interesting way to illustrate your current dilema would be to ask the board members to raise their hands if they feel guilty about having supported poor breeders in the past and why they now hold with better principles.

 

Sara from Ontario

[flyer]

Oh I'm way ahead of you Bob. I just finished reading Ironhorse's second thread "My decision". I had to wipe the tears away to find the keyboard to post this.

 

Absolutely devastating. I am so sorry all concerned had to suffer through that, Ironhorse, those who assisted you, the breeder and most of all the dogs. Heartbreaking.

 

On that note I want to assure folks that this breeder only bred three litters in 2008 and that one of these that I am looking at was a mistake. Yeah, yeah, I know but it happens. Breeding puppies is not the first line of business for this person. Though dogs are.

 

That said I am the kind of person who will be wracked with guilt if I don't now buy from a working dog breeder because of what I have read here. And that said I may still do it and get over it as the dogs were really some of the nicest dogs I've seen and "felt". Very clear animals.

 

I will keep you all posted and I do hope to continue on with the board, though you're a tough crew!!

 

Flyer

[PSmitty]

Flyer, please read the links that bsms99 posted. It has nothing to do with Ironhorse, and I think they go a long way in explaining why many of us feel the way we do. It's a two parter, read it in the order he listed. Very enlightening.

[PSmitty]

On that note I want to assure folks that this breeder only bred three litters in 2008 and that one of these that I am looking at was a mistake. Yeah, yeah, I know but it happens. Breeding puppies is not the first line of business for this person. Though dogs are.

 

That said I am the kind of person who will be wracked with guilt if I don't now buy from a working dog breeder because of what I have read here. And that said I may still do it and get over it as the dogs were really some of the nicest dogs I've seen and "felt". Very clear animals.

 

I get the feeling you've already made up your mind.

 

What do you mean by "very clear animals"? Just curious.

[Jedismom]

That said I am the kind of person who will be wracked with guilt if I don't now buy from a working dog breeder because of what I have read here.

 

Perhaps you have looked at the link below already, but if you're serious about a working dog, I guess this would be a good place to start.

http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/breeders.html

[flyer]

I get the feeling you've already made up your mind.

 

What do you mean by "very clear animals"? Just curious.

 

Oh Gosh, no. My friends would laugh at that. I'm one of those people that sit on the fence for awhile while looking into every nook and cranny, examining something from all sides, see everyone's point of view, go back and forth a few hundred times and then make the decision that my gut was telling me to make in the first place. I have very tolerant friends. I'm just preparing the way in case I do decide to go with this breeder.

 

What I mean by very clear, without wanting to sound flaky, but here goes anyway, is they seem to be open, willing animals even the more serious ones. They've had no bad experiences and come to a human expecting only good things. They are very present. I've been around horses as well as dogs for years now and you can just feel the baggage they carry from not so great interactions with humans.

 

There was only one other litter of pups that we looked at of the other mixed breeds that were like this. We almost took one of those. BC X's but then we visited these purebreds before we made up our minds and there was no doubt in any of our minds how we felt about the purebreds. Of course that is just feeling and that's fine for the kids. My head, though is doing it's usual dance and thus the research.

 

Flyer

[Ooky]

Hi flyer,

 

First off, good luck to you in your search for the new family member. I certainly understand being needy in the “I want it now” dept. I got my first dog, my BC Odin, in a similar state. I had lost my cat and life partner for 13 years almost a year prior and was very depressed. My landlord had not agreed for us to have a dog for that entire time, and I had finally got him to agree. Not only was my own long-term grief and depression playing a part, but I also had this feeling that if I didn’t do it soon, he would rescind the permission. It was intensely difficult walking away from the few litters I was able to find before I found a breeder I liked (more on that below). But my husband used to work for a shelter, so I knew in each of those cases that I not only should walk away, but needed to. Yet it only ratcheted my irrational and needy feelings each time.

 

I tried rescue as well but had little luck there. If it had worked for me, or will in the future, I would love to go rescue - I agree the idea they are all "damaged" is pure bunk. My story is that I didn’t have my heart set on a BC, but the competition for medium-sized breed pups of ANY sort were so intense in my area at the time that rescues were essentially keeping approved applications on file so you couldn’t apply for a specific animal or even litter. My husband was adamant that he get to evaluate the puppy and hopefully at least one parent himself before adopting, though, so I couldn’t just put my name in and hope a great match would come along – any hesitation or “demands” on my part meant they moved on down the list to the next potential adopter. (Which is fine! I’m glad they had so many potential adoptees!) Many breed specific rescues had a “previous experience” rule or guideline that obviously I couldn’t meet, this being my first dog, although I'm sure some of them might have waived that. Also, many rescuers indicated they would not adopt a puppy to me for various reasons that DO make sense, such as my inexperience, cats in the house, etc. etc.

 

But my heart was definitely set on a puppy for my OWN reasons, and I do not regret getting a pup for a second. There are many upsides (already discussed in this thread) to adopting a young adult, and my 10-month old pup sure is getting to be a LOT of fun right now. J However, what I’ve learned about dogs while raising him has been absolutely invaluable to *me*. Additionally, while people here are totally right that a puppy is a crapshoot, and Odin changes weekly, I personally feel you have a better chance of getting animals to get along if they are raised with the other animal - in this case my two crazy cats, one who MUST be dominant in our little pack, and both of whom are far from normal by any sense of the word. (I also needed some biological clock stopping, if you know what I mean.)

 

We knew many of the things people told you here (from lurking and my husband’s previous career) for what to look for in a breeder and what to look for in a BC breeder. I.e, no multiple litters on the ground, bred for livestock working instead of color or sports, wanted to see the dog after adoption, eye and hip checks, 1st vaccinations and worming done at breeder, etc. But I still didn’t understand all the hallmarks of a really good BC breeder (one who trials at ISDS-style trials and has breeding stock at Open level or similar). Nevertheless, we found a livestock working breeder who also bred for family-oriented temperament and could not be more happy with our resulting family member. The pups were mostly as you describe the first litter being, especially Odin, the one who picked us. There was one little hellion we were told was not for us, thankfully.

 

As for whether your family can handle it, only you can know. Do you get obsessed with your pets? Are you willing to spend more time training your dog than most of your other hobbies put together (at least in the early years)? I don’t mean to make it sound like a chore – it’s not! He’s fun, rewarding, and a star pupil. But he needs training and stimulation and “me” time for a different reason than most dogs. Most dogs, as far as I can tell, are mainly trained to have good manners and follow a few basic commands. With a BC, you need to keep them stimulated so they won’t destroy your house while insane with boredom. They are NOT goofy energetic, they are I’m-bored-so-I-think-I’ll-figure-out-how-to-open-the-fridge energetic. This is combined with a breathtaking athleticism. While your son can certainly help with the pup and may very well be great friends, you should also consider that the dog will probably be YOURS as your son has school and other duties, and like raising a child, taking care of a BC is a near full-time, long-term commitment.

 

But I am so happy to have found this breed (actually, my husband was pushing for a BC the whole time and it took a while to convince me!) I don’t think we would ever get any other type of dog now. I am doing it with no real yard to speak of and no training experience, so it CAN be done by even the least likely (seemingly) of homes. But you have to really want it. My brother just got a puppy at the same time I did, and as much as I love him, he is more of a normal dog/pet person than me. I know for a fact that if he had adopted Odin, Odin would be in rescue right now. Their dog is a goofy lab-thing, and all they talk about is waiting for her to calm down with age. Odin is better and better trained as he gets older, but he is NOT “calming down”. Nor would I want him to. We are just getting started.

 

Anyway, good luck to you again and sorry for the length!

[flyer]

Ooky,

 

Thank you, what a beautiful story. I needed that after all the doom and gloom I am reading.

 

I think Odin is very lucky.

 

Flyer

[flyer]

Well, I've read those two threads Bob posted for me.

 

Had to laugh when I read this:

 

"You're right. I do hope, though, that when the next discussion comes up about someone wanting a puppy and folks point the person to rescue only to have others come on and say "Why do you all always promote rescue when the person clearly wants a puppy and has the right to one?" that someone will post the links to this thread (and the original one) to make the point."

 

So Border collie pups are puppies from hell or Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

Or Border collie pups are puppies from hell and Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

This just gets worse and worse.

 

I don't mean to be derogatory but I understand why so many people say BC's are crazy and neurotic. Where is the balance?

 

Flyer

[Shetlander]

I don't mean to be derogatory but I understand why so many people say BC's are crazy and neurotic. Where is the balance?

 

Chose your dog wisely (educate yourself).

Commit to the dog you choose, making him an important part of your life for all of his life.

Train your dog well (an ongoing education with any type of dog and definitely with smart ones like Border Collies).

Give your dog structure, exercise and companionship so he can thrive.

Deal with the hardships, hopefully few, and reap the benefits, of which there are many, when you have a special dog like a Border Collie.

 

I do not see Border Collies as crazy or neurotic. At least not the ones I know. I think they can do well in a wide variety of environments and homes. But they are not for the casual owner. They can be a huge challenge as puppies and if they are not properly socialized, exercised, mentally stimulated and trained they can be very difficult dogs. I sometimes cringe when people comment on how mellow Quinn is. I always tell them Border Collies can be fabulous companions if you have the time, energy and commitment to give them. Again, they are not for the casual owner. That doesn't mean you need to give up your life to have a Border Collie, but you may need to make some changes in your daily schedule and activities to do them justice.

[aljones]

So Border collie pups are puppies from hell or Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

Or Border collie pups are puppies from hell and Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

Although I don't have time at the moment to re-read those two threads, I did follow them closely at the time, and my memory of the problem is something like this:

 

Poorly bred border collie pups are puppies from hell, and Ryan's situation did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy border collie.

 

Folks with better memories--feel free to correct me!

[bsms99]

...So Border collie pups are puppies from hell or Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

My vote - Border Collie puppies are fine. There are a lot of silly people who want one for a silly reason, but you aren't one of them.

 

We didn't 'know' that Border Collies were weird when we got our first purebred. She was a farm puppy. The breeder didn't ask us a ton of questions, other than did we want papers with her - that would be extra. We lived in a 1200 sq ft house with a tiny yard and two active kids. We treated her like any other dog we've owned. She did fine. A very intense dog, but always controlled. She played hard, monitored the house, adored my wife, was quiet when appropriate - a joy to raise & own. To the day she died, it never occurred to me that Border Collies need 'special' families. They just need families that will love them & train them - which sounds like any other dog.

 

We're one week into our second Border Collie puppy. So far, he's doing fine. We're treating him like a dog, not a psycho. He plays hard, loves everyone and sleeps when appropriate. He is acting housebroken for the last 3 days, sleeps through the night and seems...well, a lot like a puppy dog. He is sleeping on my foot as I type.

 

If you really want to freak out, read a bunch of threads on feeding. You'll find: normal dog food is fine. Or it kills dogs, and you need super premium. Or super premium will give cancer, and you need to feed raw. Or BARF. Or some other strange sounding variation.

 

It isn't Border Collies who are weird, it's their owners. Unlike anyone on these boards, you've seen the puppies and environment. You alone know your family. Take all the advice for what it is worth and do what is best for your family.

 

On rescue: I tried that route. The rescue I talked to pretty much decided my family needed a mixed breed, low drive dog. That was because...well, we didn't get a reason. As a family, we talked it over and got an Aussie puppy instead. Now we have a Border Collie from herding parents. I'm not worried. I'm 50 years old, and can make my own decisions.

 

The guy on the links I posted never sounded very mature or committed. You do. I'm sure you'll do fine.

[afrancis]

So Border collie pups are puppies from hell or Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

Or Border collie pups are puppies from hell and Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

This just gets worse and worse.

 

I don't mean to be derogatory but I understand why so many people say BC's are crazy and neurotic. Where is the balance?

 

Flyer

 

Don't be a-feared, Flyer!

I agree with Shetlander that I don't think bcs are necessarily crazy and neurotic.

You may also want to read this thread to find out a bit about balance:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=20675

Crazy long, I know, but it will really test your stay-with-it powers and is such a good discussion of bc temperament, etc.

 

I think bc puppies can be puppies from hell if you don't know what you're getting into. Just the combination of bc puppy zoomies, the dreaded double-whammy crouch'n'stare, and the more insistent, pay attention to me you-know-ya-wanna-ya-know-ya-wanna!!!!!!!!! .... can be a *little* intimidating to the un-forewarned And the superficial and naive interpretation of 'border collies need a*lot of exercise' translating into playing with that dog 24-7 can be the worst thing for it, i.e. no off-switch.

 

But seeing as you're being forewarned, not to mention scared silly, I think you'll be fine.

Ailsa

[Carlasl]

Well, I've read those two threads Bob posted for me.

 

Had to laugh when I read this:

 

"You're right. I do hope, though, that when the next discussion comes up about someone wanting a puppy and folks point the person to rescue only to have others come on and say "Why do you all always promote rescue when the person clearly wants a puppy and has the right to one?" that someone will post the links to this thread (and the original one) to make the point."

 

So Border collie pups are puppies from hell or Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

Or Border collie pups are puppies from hell and Ryan did not provide the necessary ingredients for a healthy BC.

 

This just gets worse and worse.

 

I don't mean to be derogatory but I understand why so many people say BC's are crazy and neurotic. Where is the balance?

 

Flyer

 

Flyer-I just wanted to write a short note, telling you I went through very much of the same thing you are going through about 2yrs ago. After my 10yr old dog passed away, I had my heart set on a border collie puppy. I was an active person, and I wanted to get involved in agililty so a border collie seemed like a fairly good fit. I came to this board asking questions and pretty much got the same response. At first I was a bit taken aback and was a little indignate. All my previous pets were rescues, I was a animal trainer (former zookeeper) and a stay at home mom with very dog savy kids. A HUGE backyard and me and my husband love to mt bike. How could I not be the "perfect" home for a border collie puppy. Then I started looking at litters and I found it was very difficult to find a truly "working" dog in my area, most of the puppies I looked at (and could afford) were BYB....so I did start looking at rescue and I did find my girl and she is AWESOME, she was 5mo old, and she is everything I could have dreamed a companion could be, she is laidback, but loves to play, is ready to bike or play ball or just run around playing chase, but when we are inside she is OFF, she lays around like a lump, she doesn't destroy anything. We go to agility classes and just have fun together.

 

I am not saying what you should get (puppy or rescue) just sharing my own story, as I know it can be depressing hearing all the bc are holy terror stories.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide

[stockdogranch]

this breeder only bred three litters in 2008

That sounds like a lot to me...

 

And the thread Alisa linked to--FABULOUS!!! A must-read, although it is very lengthy,

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

flyer,

Border collie puppies are not neurotic and crazy in general, assuming they are well bred and properly raised. What makes border collie puppies crazy and neurotic is clueless owners that don't give them the structure and guidance they need to make them into good dogs. Owners who refuse to believe that raising a border collie really does generally take a special sort of person and a special sort of commitment. The whole point of someone pointing you to Ryan's threads was as evidence that we aren't overreacting or just being elitist when new folks come along saying they're looking for a border collie puppy and we give the responses we do. Here was a person who supposedly wanted advice from experienced border collie owners, chose to ignore a good part of it, and in the end posted seeking to give the dog up. Why? Because he wasn't prepared to listen to well-meaning advice in the first place. And the dog was what, 10 months old or something? About the same age as many pups that end up in rescue.

 

Please don't think that anyone is saying we think you'll do the same--it's just that we're trying to give you some context for why you're getting the sort of responses you're getting now. It's not because we're trying to make you feel bad or because we want to convince you not to get a border collie puppy but because Ryan's scenario has been repeated many times over here, and probably magnitudes greater times out in the world in general.

 

As I said in a previous post, no one is going to persecute you for whatever decision you make, even if your ultimate decision doesn't square with what *some* of us believe.

 

P.S. I agree with Anna that three litters seems like a lot, but I do know some working breeders who breed that many, so I suppose it's something of a grey area. I don't like the idea of two litters at once, and I wouldn't look at one year to gain an overall picture but would look at the number of litters produced over a period of time like several years.

 

J.

[bc4ever]

Flyer,

 

Chill. We got Scooter when he was a puppy. Gasp. LOL! At the time, it was the best decision for us. My husband had never owned a pet other than a parakeet when he was a kid and was a little unsure of "our" ability to handle a dog. It's turned out fine. Better than fine. Scooter had his share of tantrums, dry wall eating, etc. , but I'm glad I didn't miss a minute of it. It was exhausting at times, but we laughed more than we cried. He just turned four in December and he's such a joy! Maybe we just lucked out--he doesn't seem to have a lot of the quirky phobias that some people write about. I think some of it is just his personality/breeding, and some is good training. I guess what I'm trying to say, and probably badly, is that there are no guarantees. Before we got Scooter I too had done a lot of research and read all the horror stories about Border Collies and their manic personalities. A very nice gentleman from my church had two Border Collies (he recommended the breeder) and during the course of one of our conversations I mentioned that I knew that BCs were pretty high energy and could be a real handful and he simply said, "They don't have to be." And he was right. Scooter has plenty of energy, but he has an Off Switch, loves kids, hasn't ruined one piece of furniture running through the house during one of his zoomies attacks. It's kind of like raising kids. You get out of it what you put into it. Not every Border Collie is the same, thank doG. Isn't that what BC owners like about and want to keep in the breed? Their uniqueness? Now that we've raised a puppy, we'd love to be able to have another Border Collie, and it wouldn't have to be a puppy this time. We'd be more receptive at this point in time to take a rescue. You sound like an intelligent, level headed person and I know you'll make the right decision. With your head and your heart. You've read all you need to, and it's scared the bejeebies out of you. Don't be afraid. LOL! Enjoy the ride--you won't regret it.

Whew! There.

[IronHorse]

My vote - Border Collie puppies are fine. There are a lot of silly people who want one for a silly reason, but you aren't one of them.

 

We didn't 'know' that Border Collies were weird when we got our first purebred. She was a farm puppy. The breeder didn't ask us a ton of questions, other than did we want papers with her - that would be extra. We lived in a 1200 sq ft house with a tiny yard and two active kids. We treated her like any other dog we've owned. She did fine. A very intense dog, but always controlled. She played hard, monitored the house, adored my wife, was quiet when appropriate - a joy to raise & own. To the day she died, it never occurred to me that Border Collies need 'special' families. They just need families that will love them & train them - which sounds like any other dog.

 

We're one week into our second Border Collie puppy. So far, he's doing fine. We're treating him like a dog, not a psycho. He plays hard, loves everyone and sleeps when appropriate. He is acting housebroken for the last 3 days, sleeps through the night and seems...well, a lot like a puppy dog. He is sleeping on my foot as I type.

 

If you really want to freak out, read a bunch of threads on feeding. You'll find: normal dog food is fine. Or it kills dogs, and you need super premium. Or super premium will give cancer, and you need to feed raw. Or BARF. Or some other strange sounding variation.

 

It isn't Border Collies who are weird, it's their owners. Unlike anyone on these boards, you've seen the puppies and environment. You alone know your family. Take all the advice for what it is worth and do what is best for your family.

(Top notch advice imo)

On rescue: I tried that route. The rescue I talked to pretty much decided my family needed a mixed breed, low drive dog. That was because...well, we didn't get a reason. As a family, we talked it over and got an Aussie puppy instead. Now we have a Border Collie from herding parents. I'm not worried. I'm 50 years old, and can make my own decisions.

 

The guy on the links I posted never sounded very mature or committed. You do. I'm sure you'll do fine.

 

Bob;Excellent post

[IronHorse]

Flyer,

The best advice I can give you is to do what your doing,follow your head and your heart.

After all it is what brought you here in the first place and I cannot help but to believe that the dog that you bring into your family will enjoy a wonderful life full of love and care.

 

My own path that brought me to these forums started out rather rough but I would not trade the results for anything.

A great many dogs are enjoying wonderful quality lifes due to the imput that I recieved here that gave me the resolve to make hard decisions that were unique to my paticular situation.

I chose to openly share a great deal of that experince so that perhaps others could benefit from it.

I can't imagine my life without BorderCollies in it,they amaze me on a daily basis.

 

I look forward to hearing how your adventure unfolds.

[flyer]

You people are funny!! Bob, I love that you didn't "know". bc4ever, afrancis, Carlasl, you were a zookeeper and felt challenged by the board? Oh thank goodness. Shetlandr, wise advice. Julie thank you for presenting the facts, sharing your beliefs, and having such an open mind. I understand you're in no way condoning.

 

My DD (14) has been reading this thread too and she says the dogs can't be all that much work given everyone has so much time to be on the board. I'll remind her of that when it's pouring rain and her turn to walk the dog. You said they weren't that much work, na na na na.

 

I am cheered to read these encouraging posts.

 

You know what I was told by this breeder about the dogs when I called and she interviewed me is what you folks are all saying. They are energetic, extremely intelligent. There is an on off switch, but you have to train it in by not playing frisbee for four and 1/2 hrs. That'll do is that'll do. Always and forever. People make the mistake that physical exercise is the be all and end all when it is relationship and mental stimulation the dog requires. Consistent training without harshness as they are ultra sensitive. They need to be a family member not an adjunct. If one isn't into training then a BC is not for them.

 

This board is a lot like boarder collies I think. One minute it's giving you the eye and the next it's playful and zoomie.

 

I hope to stick around. Do you know how many times it's been mentioned how intelligent I am in this thread?! Now there's a reason to get a boarder collie right there. So I can keep posting on the board.

 

Flyer

[flyer]

Flyer,

The best advice I can give you is to do what your doing,follow your head and your heart.

After all it is what brought you here in the first place and I cannot help but to believe that the dog that you bring into your family will enjoy a wonderful life full of love and care.

 

My own path that brought me to these forums started out rather rough but I would not trade the results for anything.

A great many dogs are enjoying wonderful quality lifes due to the imput that I recieved here that gave me the resolve to make hard decisions that were unique to my paticular situation.

I chose to openly share a great deal of that experince so that perhaps others could benefit from it.

I can't imagine my life without BorderCollies in it,they amaze me on a daily basis.

 

I look forward to hearing how your adventure unfolds.

 

Thank you.

[Maralynn]

My DD (14) has been reading this thread too and she says the dogs can't be all that much work given everyone has so much time to be on the board. I'll remind her of that when it's pouring rain and her turn to walk the dog. You said they weren't that much work, na na na na.

 

LOL! Our dogs are our lives... And beware - it could happen to you, too!

 

Honestly, I took job because my dog was welcome to come with me. My hobbies include farm work with my dogs and wilderness search and rescue. The dogs ride along on about 75% of my errands (if I don't have them when going to the local TSC, people ask me if they're OK). I've take Missy along to 2 out of state family weddings, and Kipp to one.

 

This board is a lot like boarder collies I think. One minute it's giving you the eye and the next it's playful and zoomie.

 

That's a pretty good analogy! I fell in love with the breed when I realized that my Missy was a dog who was willing to try and always ready give me 110%. And a breed like that deserves an owner with an equal commitment. If you're willing to make that commitment, than the breed is right for you.