flyer Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Flyer: snip> Maybe don't think about it so much, just let it be, Gee, no one's ever said that to me before. Oh and no worries about anyone going off topic to respond to Mojo. Post away. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Dear Flyer and Anna, Thank you both very much for the kind thoughts. Honestly, I did not mean to derail this thread, and no one need offer any additional sympathies or thoughts on the subject of Godiva and/or Mojo. The subject of rescue vs. breeder dog is really just touching a bit too close to home for me right now because I am obsessively trying to figure this issue out for myself for the future, just so I am clear what I want in my own mind, even though I already know I am not yet ready to have another dog at the moment. By posting, I had just tried to illustrate the only two cases of breeder pup vs. rescue dog that I've ever personally experienced from an owner's perspective, and how both, in the end (although, of course, we certainly do hope that Mojo has much further to go before he reaches his end) turned out to be pretty much the same, in my opinion--i.e., heartbreaking, despite all the effort and thought I had put into my choices--which I guess was my rather long, roundabout way of coming to the conclusion (as Anna noted) of the simple fact that we will (most likely) outlive our dogs, and as both Flyer and Anna noted, all dogs get old and sick, and as I've learned so dearly in recent months, that losing them hurts. Very much. **No matter where they came from.** Watching them have to suffer through illness also hurts, very much, but as I have also learned, that is apparently the price that one must pay if one wants to live with--indeed--the gift of a wonderful dog in one's life. I'm sorry for going on about this, but I obviously have not accepted Godiva's death yet, and yes, I am in very bitter denial, anger, guilt, sadness--the whole nine yards. I have been told and told that those feelings will eventually--WITH TIME--change over to the warm, happy thoughts of the wonderful memories we had together that Anna mentions, but it is all still too fresh in my mind, which is why I have stated that I already know that I am not ready for another dog, but I just can't stop myself from thinking about it at this point. I already know and realize that what I lost cannot ever be found again, but I really can't help but look, anyway. What really pains me now is that I HAVE tried somewhat to get on with my life and not neglect the dog I still currently have, and even treasure him, which is how and why I started actively prepping for agility again with Mojo, and renewing our training and competitive plans....only to be struck down by the new, devastating fact of career-ending hip dysplasia just two months after losing Godiva. Honestly, I can't imagine a worse fate for an active dog NOT to be able to be active, and never having had a dog with hip dysplasia I really don't know what's in store....so, really, it is all just a little too much for me to handle right now. Believe me, I am trying to look on the brighter side and be grateful for the lovely dog I still do have, hips or no hips, leash or no leash, herding instinct or no herding instinct, and adjust my life accordingly--once again--to suit his needs, but it is darned hard not to question the lot that we were assigned when I rescued him from the street! I thought I was doing a good thing, and thought I was giving a nice dog a good home, but I really had no clue at the time as to how difficult a task it was that I had taken on. As Flyer said, what would life be without challenges--and we HAVE worked SO hard together to conquer his leash reactivity--with, really, the sole goal of being able to compete in agility, which we BOTH love (or, at least, Mojo USED to love before he started to hurt)--only to have all that vanish in the instant that x-ray was taken on Tuesday. It's pretty darned disappointing, to say the least. So, for my next dog, if there should ever be one, I certainly am trying to decide what would be the best possible way to circumvent as much heartache as possible. I already know and realize that goal is NOT at all feasible, but I still can't help trying to think and think about it. In any case, thank you both again for your kind thoughts and encouragement. I really do appreciate them. Flyer, I am also truly sorry for your own recent loss. To get this somewhat back on topic, I have a question I did want to ask: from what I have learned on this Board, I know that if I want a BC, and ***if*** I decide that I want a pup from a breeder, I should only go to a reputable working breeder who registers only with ABCA, competes in USBCHA, etc. But if I mainly want to do agility, and am interested in working stock secondarily (i.e., as a weekend herding warrior, although I really do have a fairly keen interest in stockwork), I also have always kind of felt that a well-bred pup would be "wasted" on me, since I would not have the expertise or abilty to get that pup to the level he/she might be able to achieve with someone more experienced (as I would only be taking lessons weekly/monthly, etc., and do not own my own farm), and thus that pup would not get to do the level of work that he/she was originally bred for (not to mention that I have absolutely zero desire for an intact dog, so the pup would definitely have to be spayed or neutered, which could potentially be a waste there, too, if the pup actually did turn out to be an outstanding worker, despite me). Given that situation, is it then only right that if I want to do agility with a BC, even with stockwork as a secondary goal, that I should ONLY consider adult rescues (and wait for one to turn up with established working ability)? Is it ever appropriate (and I am really asking the working people here) for a person who does not have a working farm whose *primary* intent is not to work the dog on stock to have a well-bred, working-bred pup? I know that this is a judgment/opinion call, but I am definitely interested in knowing the general stance on this topic in this community, as it will definitely guide my future thoughts on a future dog. Thanks in advance for any replies. [Eileen, please let me know if I need to start my own thread, or if this is on-topic enough to stay here.] P.S. To Flyer: Bichons are awesome. Frankly, I think they are the most delightful breed there is. The only reason I don't think I can get another is because he/she would remind me too much of Godiva, but I certainly am considering other small, fluffy breeds (Shih Tzu, Havanese, Lhasas, even Westies, etc). I really do wish your DD's friend much luck with that Bichon pup!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is it ever appropriate (and I am really asking the working people here) for a person who does not have a working farm whose *primary* intent is not to work the dog on stock to have a well-bred, working-bred pup? In a perfect world, every single pup I ever bring into the world would go on to a really serious working home, with hundreds or even thousands of head of stock to work, day in and day out, working with a talented and fair handler, and then also be able to curl up next to the fire in the house to sleep at night. But that's not going to happen. There just aren't that many homes that fit that description out there. At least a few, with any luck the majority, of the litter would, I hope, go on to homes where they will be trained up (in stockwork) to a high level by a competent trainer/handler--afterall, that's why they are bred. The reason to want them to go to working homes is to see if the breeding lives up to the expectations of the breeder insofar as contributing something worthwhile to the breed. But it's also entirely possible that there might just be one or two pups left from that litter, and if the breeder knows of someone who is a knowledgeable dog owner and is committed to sharing a great life with that pup, I have no problem with that pup going to that home, where it might do agility and some "hobby herding," and where I know it will have a great life. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 ...Is it ever appropriate (and I am really asking the working people here) for a person who does not have a working farm whose *primary* intent is not to work the dog on stock to have a well-bred, working-bred pup?... I'm not a breeder, but I'll pass on the responses I got when looking for pups. I made it clear I just wanted a pet...at the time, I hadn't even heard of dog sports. I won't mention names, since I don't have their permission to discuss transactions in public. I always emphasized that we had previously owned a Border Collie, that she was strictly a pet, and that the puppy wouldn't have a chance to work stock. There were 3 places I talked with. A working ranch about 50 miles from me had a 2 year old female who worked stock, but they were willing to sell her to a pet home. Presumably, she wasn't a particularly good worker. I didn't ask for details of her working. Since we really were after a puppy, we passed. I also was concerned about taking a dog who worked stock regularly and limiting her to being a pet. I sent an email to a guy in Idaho who raises/trains dogs for trial. He didn't seem surprised or offended. He said he didn't have any puppies right then, but knew of a litter in the works in Oregon - he had a dog from the same cross, and it was a good worker & good house dog. He was polite and helpful, and I very much appreciate his advice. I contacted the lady in Oregon. She had a litter coming in a month. Of the previous litter, 4 went to places that trialed dogs, and "The fifth was placed in a family and she has not ever been tried on stock." Our agreement with her was that she would pick the puppy she thought most likely to be a good pet. Jack, the result, has been with us 2 weeks. He's housebroken, and has spent the last 4 nights loose in our bedroom at night with the other dogs. I suppose you could add a 4th - the farm where we got our first purebred Border Collie. The farmer sometimes had litters from his own dogs, and most went to farms nearby. However, any pups unspoken for were welcome to go to a pet home, provided the family was committed to keeping & caring for the dog. When I was looking last summer, I also contacted the ABCA. They gave me the names of a couple of folks who didn't breed dogs, but who might be able to help me. By that time, I already had a good lead, so I didn't follow up. No one batted an eye at being asked for a working bred puppy to go to a pet home. The only concern was commitment. I'm sure the same would be true, only more so, for an agility home. When I asked the lady in Oregon about agility (after I heard about it), she said she thought the cross would make good agility prospects. EVERY working dog person I talked to was helpful & polite. NO ONE acted like I was a 'second class buyer'. I'm certain you would get no objections, if you want a puppy bred for work. Given my reception, I can't imagine any agility home being looked down on...unless they wanted to register with AKC. That might cause problems. I don't know if that is important for doing agility, or how breeders would feel about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Given my reception, I can't imagine any agility home being looked down on...unless they wanted to register with AKC. That might cause problems. Yup. That's the one thing I forgot to mention. For me, a pup going to a "pet home" would also go with a contract basically specifying that the dog would never be registered ACK, and would go with a NB status, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is it ever appropriate (and I am really asking the working people here) for a person who does not have a working farm whose *primary* intent is not to work the dog on stock to have a well-bred, working-bred pup? Yes, it is only appropriate that for even a person who does not own or work livestock that they get a well bred working pup. The name "Border Collie" is much more then just a black and white dog with a pedigree. Its a high quality of breeding for work, ability and intelligence. If I am buying a Border Collie, it better be able to do what the breed standard calls for and that is work. I for one, want nothing but the best when I am buying something and with Border Collies, that is dogs/puppies from proven bloodlines. For what that is worth, I do have rescues who are just as nice as my quality bred dogs, a few even better in the household as pets. No questions, no argument on that one. But they are what they are, they are rescues who need help because of the people who carelessly bred them, not dogs who should be purchased to incourage more breeding of puppies (which turn into dogs) like them. No pun indented. Just the way I see it. BTW not to harp, as I can into this late but I have owned a intact female from the age of 9 years old. I am 21 now (going to be anyway, Happy Birthday to me, Happy Birthday to me! lol) and still own the same female and never once had a mistake litter. I know it happens but I question when it does. So just watch out for little things like that. I know of mistake litters and they are from good breeders but more often then not, when you hear of one its not because the breeder is anyone you'd want to be buying from. Just some food for thought! Best of luck getting whatever it is you decided on! I bet you can hardly wait! I wanted a puppy so bad and knock on wood got myself a 8 month old foster. Little shit head is going to meet a family today which might be a nice fit for him and he wakes me up (after I've been up and fell back asleep on accident!) chewing on my lovely dresser dated the late 1800s. Whoooo was I mad, so I will be sticking with older rescues for now on. haha Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 My two cents on several things: 1. Even pups bred by responsible breeders, who trial at the highest level of the USBCHA and who carefully research the mating can end up with a problem. I know, I bred such a pup. Trust me, it's devastating to fiind out as a breeder that a pup you bred has a health issue. It makes you sick, really. But the real point is that even the most carefully researched litters can have pups with health problems, hence the oft-repeated comment "no guarantees." 2. I have said on the board many times that I would rather a pup of mine go to a good pet or sport home than a working home that doesn't meet my standards of dog care. I imagine there are lots of others just like me. I would never breed a litter with the expectation of selling to pet homes primarily, but I would not exclude excellent pet homes just to get a pup into *any* working home. Obviously working homes are ideal because otherwise, as Anna said, you have no way of knowing whether the cross you made was a good one, but a pup or two from a working bred litter going into non-working or occasionally working homes isn't a huge issue. 3. When my sister's last Irish Wolfhound (rescue) died she and her daughter went to the pound and got my niece a beautiful shepherd mix. They thought that with a mutt they'd have a better chance of getting a pretty healthy dog. It was their unlucky choice that this particular dog, Blade, ended up with some sort of intestinal tumor that cut his life short. As you can imagine, my niece, who is just now 13 (and this was a few years ago), was devastated. But neither she nor her mother allowed that one instance of bad luck to color their opinion of the value of taking in a stray or rescue dog. My niece ended up with a rat terrier who needed a home, and the most recent rescue dog they took in was a great dane who had lived her life on a chain producing puppies. That dane has also had to have a tumor removed. Even that bit of bad luck hasn't turned them off rescue. 4. The whole accidental litter thing is I think generally a non-issue. Sometimes things happen even when you're being as diligent as you can be. I have a friend who has a dog that has silent heats. Now there's an accident waiting to happen. One of my best working dogs was from an accidental breeding, which also happened to be a good cross, just unplanned. I wouldn't hold one accident against anyone--I'd be much more inclined to look askance at a bunch of planned litters than one accidental one. 5. On the CHD thing, it's neither a death sentence nor a sentence to an inactive life. One of my retired successful open trial dogs has severe CHD. And yet as long as she stayed well-muscled and active she was able to compete at the top levels and do well. Now she's 12 1/2 and is fully retired, and so has lost some of her muscling. I can see problems associated with the HD that just weren't apparent when she was a bit younger. If you had your heart set on agility, then I can see where finding out your dog isn't suitable for the activity could be upsetting, BUT you rescued this dog off the street. Maybe I'm making a wild assumption here, but the whole point of rescuing the dog wasn't to find yourself the perfect agility partner, was it? Wasn't it to save a dog's life? Even with CHD, Mojo can be a loving companion. And there are other activities you can do together that won't strain his hips so much. I'm wondering if some of your reaction to this latest news isn't being colored by your loss of Godiva. I almost get the sense from your posts that you are now completely disappointed and disillusioned with Mojo, and I'm having a hard time understanding that. I have several young working prospects here and would love for them all to be top level open trial dogs, but if any of them turn out to be complete duds, I won't love them any less. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I almost get the sense from your posts that you are now completely disappointed and disillusioned with Mojo, and I'm having a hard time understanding that. I have several young working prospects here and would love for them all to be top level open trial dogs, but if any of them turn out to be complete duds, I won't love them any less. If I died and came back as a Border Collie, Julie would be my first choice for a loving, sensible, caring owner. I have often felt disappointed because something about my dogs has not turned out like I wanted it, but I don't love them any the less. They are themselves and while we can train and support them the best we can, neither they nor we can change certain things. I hope all we are hearing here is the grief talking, and that that will lessen with time and healing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 In a perfect world, every single pup I ever bring into the world would go on to a really serious working home, with hundreds or even thousands of head of stock to work, day in and day out, working with a talented and fair handler, and then also be able to curl up next to the fire in the house to sleep at night. Anna, I honestly think that I would dearly like to be adopted into that kind of home, too!! Seriously, what you describe sounds like a life I would definitely love having...someday, hopefully. Thank you for posting your kind opinion regarding the types of homes you envision for your pups. I completely understand everything you stated in terms of needing to "test" the quality of the breeding by finding homes where the pups will have the opportunity to be trained up to a high level in order to see if they can become successful--all of that information makes total sense; however, it is also helpful to know that in any given litter, there may be an available pup or two because there aren't enough of these ideal homes to go around, and in that case, a non-working home such as mine might not be excluded on principle depending if I could demonstrate the appropriate commitment. Thank you again for clarifying all this for me. Bob and Anna, I definitely would understand and expect that in my case, if I were to have a working pup, that any reputable breeder would insist that it could not be registered with AKC, which is fine with me, since I happen to prefer USDAA (for agility) anyway, AND I do support NOT supporting the AKC in terms of Border Collie breeding/showing/trials/registrations. As I stated previously, I also have no interest in maintaining an intact dog, so I would PREFER to have an NB contract. Katelynn, thanks so much for providing your perspective, as well. The sentiment that you described (i.e., getting the very best available representative of the breed) is really how I feel, as well--i.e., that ***if*** I was going to purchase a BC pup from a breeder (which, again, for anyone new to this thread, is still a big question), that I should ONLY support reputable working breeders who are breeding the BC to the betterment of the breed--but again, I was just worried that if my home is not a real working home, that such a pup would be wasted on me, and that if wanted a BC with which to do agility, I should only consider rescues, and/or consider another companion breed entirely that does not have the working vs. non-working breeding divide that the BC faces today. Really, Anna, Bob, and Katelynn, thank you all of this valuable information. It is good to know that I would not be considered a "second-class" buyer for the most part. Julie, thank you for trying to respond to my questions. In regards to your point #1, yes, I completely understand and agree. Again, my reason for posting at all was to illustrate the simple point that in my opinion, no matter what dog and no matter his origin, there is always a risk that something will go wrong in terms of health or temperament, no matter how careful one is before making a commitment to that dog. As I stated in my original post, when one opens one's heart to loving someone or something else, one only sets oneself up to be hurt. Obviously, all of us here, by choosing to own dogs, have demonstrated that we would rather "love and lose" than "never love at all," so, yes, again, I think everyone in this thread agrees on this point. In regards to your point #2, thank you for confirming the sentiments that Anna posted. It is nice to know that this open-mindedness to pet homes exists in the working world. In regards to your point #4, I guess I would not consider the fact of an "oops" litter to be an absolute red flag if I were trying to choose a breeder, but it certainly would give me pause, and I would want to know more about the situation. This is just my personal opinion, but I would never feel comfortable taking a pup sight unseen, period--if the breeder were not local, I would want to travel to where they are in order to spend some time with the breeder, see their operation, get to know the sire/dam (both, if possible). see them work, observe their temperaments in different situations, get to know some of the offspring, view the health clearances, etc., etc., so I think by that point it would become pretty obvious what type of breeding operation it was, and whether or not I would feel comfortable obtaining a pup from this breeder, and in return, by talking with me, whether the breeder would feel comfortable selling a pup to me. In regards to your point #3, thank you for posting your own personal anecdote. I am honestly very sorry that your niece had to endure the loss of two loved pets, one right after the other, at such a young age--that certainly is very bad luck. I am impressed that despite that tough experience, your sister's family went on to adopt two more rescues, and I do hope that those dogs will remain in great health for them for many more happy years to come. As I have repeatedly stated, the future health of my next dog is a very large concern for me based on the heartbreak that I have personally gone through with the only two dogs I have ever had. Despite that, I fully realize (once again) that no matter HOW much I try to plan, there simply are no health guarantees with ANY dog or puppy--whether from a rescue or a breeder--only probabilities, and that is just the risk one has to assume if one wants to have a dog, period. But that certainly hasn't stopped me from pondering how best to go about this issue in my mind, ad nauseam, because I cannot help but subscribe to the concept of free will, and am loath to resign myself to leaving *everything* up to fate. Again, at this point, I honestly do not know where I plan on getting my next dog, including what breed or mix of dog I want, or even if I am going to get another dog at all, so all I am really doing now is just that--trying to plan, and gather information. I really do appreciate everyone's kind efforts in responding to my posts here and trying to answer my questions. I have also previously stated that if I *had* to come to a conclusion right now, I think that in MY ideal scenario, I would get a rescue dog from a known background--not only so I could pick a dog with the right adult temperament and athletic ability for dog sports if I wanted to do competitive agility with him/her, but also in order to assure the best possible probability of our being able to have long, happy, healthy lives together by knowing the health of his/her relatives, while also still being able to feel good about saving the life of that individual dog...but as I have stated again, it seems that the problem with this breed in particular is that I think it seems fairly difficult to find a BC from a REPUTABLE WORKING breeder in rescue, especially an individual dog with working ability, at least from my own limited experience with BC rescues.....WHICH IS NOT TO SAY that if that is what I decide I want--i.e., a working BC--that I would not look in rescue first; as I have also previously stated, I actively foster for rescue, so of course, I support rescuing in general. That does NOT, however, mean that I do not support obtaining puppies or dogs from reputable breeders. A number of the rescue people I work with have absolutely no objections with buying nice puppies from reputable breeders (and are even breeders themselves--though not of BCs, for the record)--in fact, I have already been encouraged to do so, if I feel that any given puppy/young dog and breeding would be right for my family. I certainly am in no rush to decide anything, and when I do decide, I sincerely doubt I will be in a rush to select a particular dog--precisely because I am FULLY aware of the 15+-year commitment that any dog comes with, and that such a decision should not be taken lightly. As I think is evident by my journey with Mojo, once I decided to make the commitment to him, I made it permanently, for better or for worse, and thus I have done everything within my power to do the best I can for him, and I will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Just as I did for Godiva. In regards to your point #5, I did not feel that my reasons for deciding to keep Mojo needed to be explained in great detail because they were not relevant to this thread, but based on the (erroneous) assumption you have made, I will elaborate my past and current motivations now: For the record, yes, I can certainly relate to your sister's hope that a mutt stood a much better chance of being healthy. I am sorry that for both of us, the concept of "hybrid vigor" did not happen to hold true in the case of her Blade and for Mojo. At the time that I found Mojo, Godiva had already been diagnosed with kidney failure for almost a full year, AND we had recently struggled through and survived her severe pancreatitis and superimposed colitis, so with so much already on my plate, frankly, not only did I feel that the very last thing I needed was another dog, but I really did not feel that I could *emotionally* handle another chronically ill dog......I am strong, but I am definitely not a saint. Mojo, however, certainly seemed healthy and happy at first, and I could not help but like his personality, and it was all the more endearing that he immediately latched on to me as his rescuer, AND he and Godiva appeared to take to each other immediately. So (after I took him to the vet and had him checked out and they felt there was no reason to quarantine him for more than the 2 days I already had), I figured there would be no harm in allowing him to stay with us until his owner could be found. It wasn't for another week or two, when he happened to see another dog for the first time when I happened to be holding him out in our driveway on a leash, that I first discovered how leash-reactive he was when he hit the end of that leash with all his weight, snarling and growling and barking like a wild tiger, which obviously completely shocked me, since he had been so good with Godiva to date in the house, and had met her for the first time ON-LEASH....and so, that marked the beginning of my seeking professional help for him, as well as my sinking feeling that he was going to have to stay with us simply because there was nowhere else for him to go. To answer your direct question again, as I have already stated, NO, I most certainly did not adopt Mojo for agility. I wrote this in my first post: If you had to ask me, knowing what I do now, if I would have still picked up Mojo from the street, of course I would say that the answer would still have to be YES--I just don't think that I could have lived with myself knowing that one dog's demise was the direct--or even the indirect--result of my not doing what I could to help him. It had honestly never once occurred to me to do agility with Godiva in the 13 years prior to Mojo's arrival, as she was never very active, and as an exemplary member of a breed that has been bred solely as a companion dog for centuries, she was always very happy and content just to snuggle against me wherever I went. Sure, she knew a few tricks and all her obedience commands (I am not the type to have a badly behaved, spoiled dog, despite her fluffy cuteness), but she never NEEDED anything remotely resembling competitive dog sports to feel fulfilled. Mojo, however, IS very active, and it became very clear early on that he REALLY needed a job to do, and that he not only enjoys, but THRIVES, on learning new tricks and commands--as many as possible!--and working with me as closely as possible, and, most importantly, he LOVES FEELING USEFUL. I have never known a dog before who needed so much to be NEEDED, which is why I always thought that despite his mixed-breedness, somewhere in there, there must have been some kind of working dog. Agility (and, later, working stock, once I learned more about it) seemed like the perfect mental and physical outlet for his energy, and once I started doing agility with him in earnest, not only did HE seem to love agility, but I found that I really enjoyed agility (and working stock), too, probably because it reminds me so much of showjumping horses, which is how I mainly and enjoyably spent my youth before I switched to dressage as an adult--and I could clearly see how much more confident and happy Mojo was being able to learn, accomplish, and succeed at clear tasks. For the human, having Mojo around in general was certainly a pleasure in that he had such an eager mind that, like a sponge, seemed to soak up and absorb as much as I could throw at him--limited only by the bounds of my imagination--training him was, and is, a great thrill and challenge, and so of course I really enjoy working with Mojo, at least as much as he enjoys working with me. As for agility, despite the fact that I had never once thought about doing agility prior to Mojo, I think many here can attest to how addicting agility (and working stock) is, especially if one is even the slightest bit competitive--and I freely admit that I am darned competitive; I wouldn't have gotten to where I am today by taking things easy! But now I had a dog whose ability to learn and perform seemingly matched my desire to teach him everything I could, so it really seemed like we were going places! That doesn't mean that I thought we were destined for World Team competition...but hey, I was keeping my mind open! If he wanted to take us there, I certainly wouldn't say no! Realistically, however, based on his other issues, I honestly would have just been ecstatic if we could have made it through ONE fun run (Show 'n Go) without him lunging at another dog when he was not on course, whether we "Q'd" or not. Again, I really did not think that I needed to get into this level of detail about Mojo and his problems in this thread, but since the unfortunate(ly incorrect) main sentiment that you (Julie) have apparently derived from my posts is that I am "completely disappointed and disillusioned" with Mojo, I will take the liberty of continuing to explain: Over time, I realized that Mojo's leash reactivity mainly stemmed from his being so anxious and insecure about just about everything when he is not at home with the family, probably because of natural reserve with strangers combined with extremely poor early socialization, and at some point in his past, he had obviously learned that the tightening of a collar around his neck in combination with the frustration of being trapped/constrained by a leash served as a trigger for that anxiety. Since this could easily turn into a multi-page discussion, I will try to be as brief as possible: Mojo is basically hypervigilant and hypersensitive to his surroundings, so any sudden changes in the environment (i.e., a new person or dog walking across his field of vision) make him completely freak out barking (i.e., if I do not do anything to reassure/redirect him, of course). At heart, however, as we see daily when he is at home, he is a sweet, gentle, devoted, and even quite friendly and curious dog, who IS able to relax, and he even thoroughly enjoys the company of other dogs and people when he is OFF-LEASH in public in designated dog parks, at the beach, etc.--but his partially learned, partially inherited neuroses really cloud his ability to think when he gets too worked up at being on-leash. So, when it really comes down to it, our "REAL" single goal has been to help him live a more calm, normal life with much less anxiety (e.g., he is on amitriptyline, a tricyclic antidepressant for anxiety), so that he does not have to live with so much stress all the time, because, frankly, it must be terribly unpleasant to be on the constant lookout for danger, and that goal DOES include his being able to be walked on-leash in public like a normal dog, and everyone who has seen me work with him believes that this is a perfectly reasonable goal for him (remember, he is not fearful). Thus, combined with the main bulk of our leash work (counterconditioning, desensitization--all the positive reinforcement techniques I use would require many more pages to explicate), I believed that competitive agility could have been another bridge to that goal: i.e., it was something he could easily do, was good at, enjoyed, and thus was something at which I felt he could easily succeed, which would help to boost his confidence and reduce his insecurity, and thus, by combining those positive feelings with the presence of leashed dogs, it seemingly provided a way for us to be around other dogs in a focused manner such that he could realize that other dogs (when he is leashed) are No Big Deal. Because, again, as long as Mojo is OFF-leash, he is as friendly with other dogs as could be. Notably, he is not fear-aggressive at all--he completely loves other dogs in "his space." He has never gone after another dog as long as he is not leashed. In fact, if you saw him off-leash, you would never know that he has any issues at all. Even if he is ON-leash, even when he is in the middle of flinging himself at the end of the leash like a fish caught on a line, if the other dog should actually approach and get right in his face, Mojo IMMEDIATELY stops lunging, suddenly starts wagging his tail, and goes right around to the back of the other dog to sniff its butt. It is definitely a bit of a weird problem--the first time that another dog (accidentally) ran into us as we turned a blind corner when Mojo was on leash, I was sure that there would be an awful fight, but exactly what I described above happens....happy tail-wagging and a completely normal greeting!! So, Mojo really has no bad intentions whatsoever, but he just gets so worked up with anxiety (and desire?) at the impending "meeting" whenever he sees another dog at a distance that it manifests visibly as frustration, which then morphs into seeming aggression, that suddenly drops right back down to friendly curiosity once the other dog is in range. Obviously, it is not appropriate for him to be be allowed to meet every single dog, and so, again, our leash goal is for him to be able to see other dogs on-leash and walk right by them when asked. We HAVE succeeded in this goal to a large extent, to be honest, which is why I was even thinking about competing last fall. But again, we have had no shortage of qualified professional help--e.g., we are avid devotees of the Control Unleashed philosophy, and are currently working with a CU trainer; among other things, we are also members of a chartered obedience/agility club, where twice a week I dutifully take him to obedience and agility practices where I walk him on-leash around the other dogs and work on his focus and his being calm, etc., etc., and of course we work in our neighborhood on his leash issues daily, and I take him for multiple weekly off-leash hiking opportunities with other dogs in the many dog parks in our area for remedial socialization. I am saying all this just to make clear that I am NOT seeking training help here; I am perfectly happy with how his leash reactivity is progressing (or, receding, if you will). To get back on topic, I just felt that being able to COMPETE in agility--to go to a trial, and walk around the field LEASHED around other dogs while waiting for his turn, and then getting off the field without any incidents, would have been a TANGIBLE marker of our progress in reducing his leash reactivity, and would represent a really enormous step in terms of how calm/relaxed he could be in a public environment, and if you want to extend it to this, that I was doing a good job for my dog's general mental well-being. Yes, surely, I completely admit that I came to love agility, and the more I did it with Mojo, the more I loved it.....BUT I ALSO love my dog for who he is, despite all his anxiety and hypervigilance, which are, by anyone's standards, negative characteristics that make it hard for him to live a calm life in normal society. He also has plenty of good characteristics that make him easy to love that I do not feel are necessary to enumerate here. I do certainly realize that not being able to do agility with Mojo is not the end of the world, AND that there are other things I can do with him to fulfill his need to have a "job"; you must not have seen what I wrote earlier: Essentially, now I still have a VERY active dog, both physically and mentally, except that I no longer have an agility outlet to expend that energy....so I really have no choice now but to focus on obedience and rally and tricks, except of course that we will never get beyond Novice since we won't be able to do the jumps in Open. And that is if we ever get over his leash-reactivity in any sort of reliable fashion. Don't get me wrong--I love Mojo to death, literally, and he will always have the best possible home with me for the rest of his natural life--but trust me, it has NOT been easy keeping him or training him, nor has it been cheap. I will, however, stand by the fact that I think it is perfectly reasonable and right for me to be freaking disappointed that we can't do agility anymore due to the unexpected diagnosis of hip dysplasia, ESPECIALLY after ALL the hard work we have put towards that end. I don't think it's really quite fair for you to assume that anything I have written indicates that I am "completely disappointed and disillusioned" WITH MOJO. It certainly is not HIS fault that he has bad hips....it is the fault of whoever bred him irresponsibly, and whoever irresponsibly bred his parents. It is not HIS fault that he is rampantly unsocialized and has leash reactivity issues and severe social anxiety.....it is the fault of whoever irresponsibly bought him from his irresponsible breeder, irresponsibly raised him, and then irresponsibly dumped him in the street like a sack of garbage. I love him, I am committed to him, and I think it is completely fair, reasonable, and right that I am completely disappointed with how THIS SITUATION is unfolding, period, and I am indeed disillusioned with the process of getting a new dog, because I DO have valid, founded fears that if I ever get another dog, that a similar heartbreaking thing will happen, no matter how carefully I make my choice or how hard I work, because LIFE, in GENERAL, seems to be disappointing me of late.....but I am not disillusioned WITH MOJO. And I think I have a perfectly justifable reason to be feeling so disillusioned IN GENERAL. Mojo's bad health news has indeed come rather hot on the heels of Godiva's death, about which I am still VERY depressed, and still cry on a nearly daily basis, and now with Mojo to worry about just when I was trying to get my life back on track, YES, I do feel as I've gotten more than my fair share of the short end of the stick in recent months. Please see this statement I wrote previously, as well: What really pains me now is that I HAVE tried somewhat to get on with my life and not neglect the dog I still currently have, and even treasure him, which is how and why I started actively prepping for agility again with Mojo, and renewing our training and competitive plans....only to be struck down by the new, devastating fact of career-ending hip dysplasia just two months after losing Godiva. I hope that I have made it abundantly clear that just because I am wallowing in grief and disappointment at the moment, as I feel that I have every right to do--that none of that means that I hate Mojo and am disappointed in HIM PERSONALLY, or even with rescues in general. I hope I have clarified this matter adequately. Thank you again to all for all your responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 To get back on topic, I just felt that being able to COMPETE in agility--to go to a trial, and walk around the field LEASHED around other dogs while waiting for his turn, and then getting off the field without any incidents, would have been a TANGIBLE marker of our progress in reducing his leash reactivity, and would represent a really enormous step in terms of how calm/relaxed he could be in a public environment, and if you want to extend it to this, that I was doing a good job for my dog's general mental well-being. I think your feelings here make perfect sense and that your instincts are correct. I like agility, but I've never been in LOVE with the sport and having been away from it for a while I don't miss it that much. My major motivation for doing agility with Solo was that he adores doing agility, and because it was a good mental and social outlet for him. In the structured environment of agility training, he was able to come to terms with having other dogs and strange people in close proximity (indeed, he quickly learned that anyone in the training facility was OK and was about as good at making human friends there as he has been anywhere) and being able to take him to trials and make it around the course without incident was always a major high for me. I don't know how bad Mojo's HD is, but I don't think that a diagnosis of HD means he can't do agility ever ever again. I mean, really, agility class once a week, you spend most of your time standing around waiting your turn anyway and your dog is running maybe a total of 5-10 minutes tops. Which is fine, since it gives you plenty of time to work on behavior mod the rest of the time -- that's what I was always doing at agility class with Solo. If I were doing agility now with Jett (which I do plan to do when she is more physically mature) I would still be taking Solo too. He's got one very bad hip, and pre-Adequan had a pronounced limp, but now that he is on Adequan and in better physical condition (i.e., thinner) he is getting around perfectly well enough to go do agility once or twice a week as long as the jumps are set low. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I understand the position that you are in very, very well. I've mentioned her here before, but my dog previous to Solo was a Pomeranian named Harley. Harley had no flaws of any kind. I took her EVERYWHERE. Harley was a perfect dog, and she was my heart's dog, and a part of me. She was only 7.5 years old when she died. Harley had lymphangiosarcoma and there was no viable course of treatment so I decided to let her go. Harley's Eulogy Solo sort of fell into my lap a mere 11 days after Harley's death and it took quite some time for me to stop comparing him to her. After my heart opened and I fell in love with him I was able to embrace him, and all of his flaws, but Harley was a very, very tough act to follow and I was feeling pretty raw from her death. It is totally understandable that you feel disillusioned and a bit sorry for yourself. I don't mean that in a bad way, I know what it's like to feel sorry for myself and wonder why I had to lose the most perfect dog in the world only to find myself dealing with so many Solo-related dog problems. It's a very human response. I did eventually come to treasure Solo and accept him and all his flaws. I now know that he is the dog of my lifetime. This is not to take anything away from Harley, as she truly was my heart's dog and will always be the standard by which I judge all other dogs, of all breeds. Harley was mine, but she didn't need me and would have been fine without me -- she was so good, so outgoing, and so popular that it was kind of like she was the world's dog, if that makes any sense. Solo is My Dog and I know neither one of us would be what we are without each other. Solo needs me. That makes our relationship very, very different. Solo's Got Day Time will help, but you know that already. ETA: fixed second link to lead to correct page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Okay, I don't want to get into some long drawn out thing here, and I did read everything you wrote, but was reacting to your overall "tone" and not specific words, which is why I also noted that perhaps some of what I was reading into what you wrote was because your writing is colored by your current state of grief. I did see where you said he really needs a job and now you no longer have agility (at least the jumping part) as an outlet, and then you went on to say that you've put a lot of time and money into training. Those comments were precisely why I mentioned my dog Jill, who despite bad HD, still competed at the highest levels in sheepdog trialing. CHD is not some sort of "death sentence" when it comes to sports or activity. Pain can be managed, arthritis can be managed. Hips can be held well in their sockets with good muscling. A dog can still have a *very active* life. That was the point I made in response to your original comments about how Mojo can no longer be active and which you seem to have overlooked. Melanie has confirmed that her Solo, who also has a bad hip, can still do agility. I don't see how Mojo's agility career is completely ended--you just will have to take a different approach and work around his limitations, at least for now. Another point I'd like to make is that if Mojo wants a job, give him one other than agility. Teach him to do service dog stuff. That won't necessarily get him out and around other dogs so you can work on reactivity, but service work is a job that takes brains, and that kind of work will tire even a super high energy dog. Teach him to alert you to the phone ringing. Teach him the names of objects and have him get them for you. Teach him to pick up things that you drop on the floor. Agility isn't the only job out there that he can learn to do. And a service type job can have some real lasting benefit for you later on. I went back and looked for your comments regarding pups with good hips from parents and grandparents with good hips but couldn't find it again. I'm sure you know this, but for anyone else reading I want to point out again that even if you breed pups from dogs with generations of good hips you can still get a dysplastic puppy. No guarantees. You can stack the odds in your favor, and we all try to do that, but sh*t happens. Regarding taking a pup sight unseen, I did just that with my Lark. Of course in that case I did know the breeder and the dogs involved (sire/dam) and the dam is closely related to my best working dog, but beyond that when my friend said there was a smooth-coated tri female in the litter, I said "I'll take her" (the caveat was that I would do DNA testing to determine that the sire was who she thought it was--it was). That little dog is not quite three, and works sheep, cattle, and poultry. She's pretty much ready to move up to open, but I already have two open dogs and many trials don't allow the option of a third dog, so she's waiting in the wings. Granted, your scenario included a lot more unknowns than mine did, but this pup was from unproven (working/trialwise) parents without all the health tests, and yet I knew the genetics behind those dogs and decided to take a(n) (informed) chance. I'm not sorry I did. Oh, and on the money and time spent on training that you have mentioned--well, that's what I alluded to when I mentioned my young prospects who could turn out great or not. In the stockdog world, you might have dogs who clearly will not cut it, but for many of them the only way to find out if they have what it takes is to put the time (often several years) and money (lessons, clinics, trials, perhaps even the cost of owning sheep). It's no less heartbreaking to spend several years training a youngster only to finally come to the conclusion that the dog isn't going to make it as a top trial dog. This has nothing to do with health, of course, but there are parallels. Unfortunately, whenever we undertake a sport (or real work), we take a big chance that the time and money we put into a particular dog will pay off. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I'm not trying to minimize what has happened with you and Mojo, but if you've spent a lot of time in the horse show world, as you indicate you have, then you surely understand that one can just as easily end up disappointed as not when you start with a blank slate (horse or dog) and a dream. There are no absolutes in any of this, as much as we might like there to be. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Mojo, I have to agree with Julie re: the general tone with which you write about Mojo and it most likely being a product of severe grief for loss of Godiva. I think my (originally my husband's) cats Benway and Lobo, in hindsight, were not treated all that well by me for a few months following Mesto's death, who like your Godiva had "always" been with me and was perfect; my familiar, partner, and confidant. I think I very strongly felt Benway and Lobo were physically and mentally *nothing* like him, even if all three are cats. They are actually really different from him, but at the time it's like this very fact put me off and therefore I couldn't really take any comfort they would have given. I remember actually resenting time spent cleaning after them, calculated the money they had caused me breaking all the things they break, etc. I wasn't that nice to DH either, for a bit, come to think of it. Obviously I love all three of them to pieces. I'm not suggesting you do not still love Mojo and continue to give him great care, it's just that what I glean from your writings is that Mojo's diagnosis was almost as if deep down you he's failed you. I know you are deeply in mourning and also know you can't actually believe any such thing - grief makes us totally irrational. I hope you can see past this diagnosis to all the things you can do with Mojo, whatever those may be. Don't discount agility yet, but realize there have to be many valid options beyond that even if it isn't a possibility anymore (which you don't know yet!) And if I can offer one last piece of totally unsolicited advice, I would wait a bit longer to get a pup by any means if I were you. I understand why the research feels soothing now, and did read the statement where you said you didn't even know if you would get a puppy, period. Obviously people get new pets very soon after their other pet dies and can have excellent experiences like Melanie. To me it just sounds like your grief is pretty raw and it would be hard to bond properly from your end. I hope that you can give yourself time to heal and to give Mojo an honest appraisal of what his diagnosis really means - in the grand scheme of a lifetime of mutual training and companionship I think it means less than you are feeling right now. Ok, I'll stop meddling - and really wish you all the best. --Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Mojo, I've contacted three working dog breeders now and two have said they would sell me a pup if they had one suitable and one has no interest in non-working homes for their dogs. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 wow. I just read through this entire thread...and so I had to go back to the OP. Our 17 yr.old BC X husky passed away You had a 17 yr. old dog? That speaks volumes in my world. went out to view five litters and a couple of single pups but no one was jumping out at us until we went to look at purebred BC's. You took a lot of time to research a lot of options The dog would certainly be a member of our family and loved by all, but would mostly be with me. I work at home part-time. We live in a suburb in our own house with a good sized back yard and near a river with miles of trails that we took our Piper to at least four times a week for a five K walk and swim. She had lots of other walks as well. We take our dog most places including the barn three times a week. Couple this with the 17 year old dog, and you sound like a potential good owner to me. I have a couple of questions regarding choosing a pup since going to look at a couple of litters. If you read below, I think you will see you already know some of the answers The dogs we fell in love with were at a professional's who had two litters a week a part. Her dogs are working dogs though not herding dogs. Her dogs have to work with many different people so she breeds with temperament in mind. We met a number of her dogs and all of them were happy, obedient and had a lot of character. There were a few pups we liked, but we went to look at another litter of BC's to compare. You could have just bought a puppy right away. You chose to look further and compare...good for you! This time a woman who bred her family dog/bitch for the second time. though the female was very friendly with us we were told she does often growl at strangers. Oh dear. You already saw this read flag. The six and 1/2 week old pups were non-stop chewers. It felt like a den of anxiety. Not one of the dogs wanted to be in our arms, squirmed to get down. It was a little disturbing. Now would this be because of the way these dogs are being socialized. Too many kids picking them up too much and letting them chew on them or ...? Another red flag you have already recognized. Who cares why it happened; it is what it is. At the 1rst breeders where we will choose a pup I noticed that the dogs we were attracted to, my husband and I especially were the pups that came up to us, sat and looked right into our eyes as if to say, so now what? It was almost like you could think at them. Our dog was like this. So you're back again to that first litter that you already said you liked. I am also drawn to a more serious dog, but would a more light hearted dog be more appropriate for the family? Any suggestions as to what to look for to know you have a softer dog, that really tunes in? Are the more serious dogs as good with strangers? Any other advice in general? No one seems to have addressed these questions. Only you can know what kind of personality will be best for your family. I think when you find the right puppy, you will know it. Anything you question means you are not sure...and when in doubt - don't. I don't think you're as confused as you think you are. You seem to be a good dog owner and have successfully raised a dog to 17 years...so trust your instincts. You've already established problems you've seen with the other comparable puppies. Regarding this board: sometimes a lot of input is good...and sometimes it makes the situation more confusing. I recently had a question that I wanted an opinion on...but I knew if I posted I would have 50 different opinions and for that situation, I didn't want that. So I picked one person on the board that I thought would be the most knowledgeable on my question and who I respected as far as knowledge of the subject went. I got a very detailed and informative personal response that really helped me decipher where the problem was coming from. Sometimes 50 opinions are wonderful (even if they are conflicting) and sometimes one respected opinion is more of what you need. Either way, the people on this board here are dedicated, opinionated, and a great way to educate yourself. But don't let all the smoke get in your way...I think you probably see things more clearly than you think. My best to you...have fun finding the right puppy! B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMack Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Flyer, More adorable puppies needing homes: http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...petid=12733949s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Flyer,More adorable puppies needing homes: http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...petid=12733949s Ooooooooooooh!! I LOVE them! They remind me of my three original dogs all rolled into one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I don't think you're as confused as you think you are. You seem to be a good dog owner and have successfully raised a dog to 17 years...so trust your instincts. You've already established problems you've seen with the other comparable puppies. Regarding this board: sometimes a lot of input is good...and sometimes it makes the situation more confusing. I recently had a question that I wanted an opinion on...but I knew if I posted I would have 50 different opinions and for that situation, I didn't want that. So I picked one person on the board that I thought would be the most knowledgeable on my question and who I respected as far as knowledge of the subject went. I got a very detailed and informative personal response that really helped me decipher where the problem was coming from. Sometimes 50 opinions are wonderful (even if they are conflicting) and sometimes one respected opinion is more of what you need. Either way, the people on this board here are dedicated, opinionated, and a great way to educate yourself. But don't let all the smoke get in your way...I think you probably see things more clearly than you think. My best to you...have fun finding the right puppy![/i] B Thank you so much for your encouraging post. I think I know what I'm doing but what one reads about border collies makes one re evaluate at every step. It's been a very enlightening experience looking at various litters. The dogs that appeal to us are always the dogs the breeders are keeping and that's before we know that fact. I love how The BC's look into your eyes so intensely. Like they are reading your soul. I am relieved and excited to say that I think we've found our guy. Having him vet checked this afternoon and if all is good, he's the one. Whew! I will post pic's once we take some on a new thread. I just want to say once again that I really appreciate all the posters who contributed to this thread. All your words were a tremendous help. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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