opinions on this issue

[ShoresDog]

I would be very upset if my dog was attacked by hers but I still would blame the owner not the dog. She hasn't been fined so I don't understand why the dog is being punished.

Maybe you could look at some old threads and read about the long-lasting effects on LizP's Sage from an unprovoked attack by another dog, for an example of what can happen on the receiving end. Wendy (Lenajo) meant it when she said:

 

A dog like that can ruin your dog for life. It doesn't matter if the owner pays the vet bills.

It really is a big deal.

[Amelia]

Hello all. Assuming truthfulness on her site, this dog, a shepard/lab mix named Brindi, was found tied to a porch in a box with some puppies, then spent 2 years in a shelter before her current owner adopted her. I can only imagine what this dog's life was like before it's adoption. Not good. Hard to place?? Well, you rescuers out there can answer that one far better than I.

 

Unfortunately, some of the compassionate people who are inclined to adopt hard to place dogs do not have the type of personality necessary to rehabilitate them into obedient pets. But, we can't have it both ways. We can't criticize the fact that dogs are bred while shelter pets die and criticize the ones who adopt when they demonstrate less than optimum ownership skills and responsibility.

 

If I were the city of Halifax, I would give her a specific amount of time to complete another odedience class and build a fence around her yard, then release the dog to her. She says she can't see her dog! Why? So, let me get this straight, we allow alleged and convicted child molestors to have supervised (or not) visitation with their children, but this kind woman can't hang out with her dog?

 

I know what it's like to be caught in the tangled web of a municipality's clutches where up is down and black is white. It's a helpless, otherworldly feeling where common sense is non-existent and narrow-minded people imbued with the tiniest shred of the most limited power get off by watching you twist in the wind. I signed the woman's petition with the caveat that she build a fence and attend a class.

[Lenajo]

I signed the woman's petition with the caveat that she build a fence and attend a class

 

I would hazard a guess if you were walking your good trial dog near this women's home and her dog took your dog down you'd be less benign in your opinion.

[Liz P]

Maybe you could look at some old threads and read about the long-lasting effects on LizP's Sage from an unprovoked attack by another dog, for an example of what can happen on the receiving end. Wendy (Lenajo) meant it when she said:

It really is a big deal.

 

Sage has been attacked twice by loose bully breed dogs. Different dogs, different owners. After the second attack he shut down. He is still not fully functional despite months of rehab and medication. My bills to date are over $2500 and the owner of the second dog is hiding and refusing to pay anything, even the bills for the immediate aftercare. He is a recluse, requires meds just to function at a minimal level and will almost certainly never fully recover. He has PTSS and still screams and panics if reminded of the attack by a touch, sound or smell.

 

My dog is ruined. He may not have been killed, but multiple unprovoked attacks have left him scarred for life.

[Amelia]

No, I would beat it over the head with a stick as I did the nieghbor's guardian dog that was shaking my best trial dog like a rag doll one day when I was out working. It's not my intention to argue with anyone here and I agree that everyone should be able to safely walk their dogs. I just believe that there's some way to educate the woman, restrict Brindi and keep other dogs safe. At least I sure hope so. Now, before I work in that field, I let the neighbor know I'm coming and he pens his dogs.

Cheeers all,

[MrSnappy]

I lived with a dog aggressive dog for nearly 11 years. In that time, I can count on one hand the number of times he actually fought with another dog, because I was acutely aware of his issues and took great pains to prevent fighting. However, despite my best intentions periodically he'd manage to fight with someone, because I didn't do enough to prevent it.

 

That's in a ten year span mind. This woman had hardly had her dog any time at all and the dog has gotten out or gotten loose and gone after other dogs multiple times - almost as many times as Briggs did in his whole lifetime. How many chances do you give someone like this?

 

It's sad that Brindi may lose her life, because of her owner's irresponsibility, but the world is crawling with dog-aggressive pit bull mixes that are mismanaged by their humans. Arguably, the rest of the community should not have to go on paying for this woman's right to mismanage her aggressive dog. Someone is going to lose and the blame rests pretty squarely on the shoulders of the woman who did not do enough to keep it from happening.

 

RDM

[BustopherJones]

This may be a bit cyncial, but I have to ask the question. If the owner gets the dog back and does NOT take the necessary steps that have been so clearly and eloquently suggested in this thread, what guarantee exists that this dog will not get loose again and next time attack a small child? Even if the dog is "rehabilitated", what assurance exists that it will not snap again in the future?

[MrSnappy]

This may be a bit cyncial, but I have to ask the question. If the owner gets the dog back and does NOT take the necessary steps that have been os clearly and eloquently suggested in this thread, what guarantee exists that this dog will not get loose again and next time attack a small child?

 

Probably common knowledge that dog aggression and human aggression are NOT the same thing.

 

The problem is not the possibility that the dog will escalate to other forms of aggression, the problem is what guarantee can the owner give that the dog will not get out and attack yet another DOG.

 

Fear mongering doesn't help.

 

RDM

[BustopherJones]

Fear mongering doesn't help.

I thought I asked a reasonable and rational question. Condescending comments such as this are precisely the reason that I am becoming increasingly reluctant to even post on this board.

[Root Beer]

I just believe that there's some way to educate the woman, restrict Brindi and keep other dogs safe. At least I sure hope so.

 

I hope so, too. This really would be the best way for the situation to turn out and I truly hope it can happen.

[WildFlower]

This is a really hard topic.

 

My previous Border Collie, Casey, was attacked by three dogs in our neighborhood one summer evening while walking her. The dogs, supposedly, charged through an "invisible fence" and wrestled my 11 year dog to the ground. Without thinking I knelt on the ground hunching over her pushing the dogs away from her while my mom pulled them off from behind. All while the (in shock) but absolutely useless male owner stood in his yard watching. Fortunately, Casey made it away with a gash to the neck and several small punctures to the mouth. However, I think that I made her already arthritic hips worse by doing what I did - hunching over her. The owners paid for the vet bills and my medical bills (small bite on the hand) - no questions asked. We never reported the incident because the owners said that the one "lead" dog had attacked their own oldest dog a couple of times before and they decided to have him put down. (FYI - we did not ask this to be done.)

 

While I think that it is unfair that the dogs suffer because of a human's lapse in judgement or carlessness - I do not think that it is fair that I should be afraid to walk my dog in my neighborhood. My mom is still terrified to this day to walk in her neighborhood.

 

My own personal opinion is that people who are irresponsible with their dog should not be allowed to own another one. (I haven't thought out how that would be enforced - but if the people are the problem then they should be punished.)

[MrSnappy]

I thought I asked a reasonable and rational question. Condescending comments such as this are precisely the reason that I am becoming more reluctant to even post on this board.

 

Oh for crying out loud, grow a pair.

 

It IS fear mongering. Isn't the original issue bad enough? The dog gets loose and attacks other people's innocent dogs, which is tragic and terrifying for the dog and the owner of the innocent dog. No need to drag little children into the fray, since the dog has never shown a propensity to be aggressive to people. But Brindi is a serious problem for other dogs, and that in and of itself is a real cause for concern.

 

RDM

[vanillalove]

I thought I asked a reasonable and rational question. Condescending comments such as this are precisely the reason that I am becoming more reluctant to even post on this board.

 

I didn't think RDM was being very condescending. She simply has lived with a dog aggressive dog and knows first hand that there is a difference between dog and human aggression. My Pete pulled one of those twisted stakes that is attached to his long line out of the ground and took down a Jack Russell in front of my house. No damage was done but as aggressive as he can be potentially to other dogs (and I say potentially because I manage him), he would NOT hurt a child or any other human and I could rest my life on that unless there was some serious heckling or something on the human side.

 

If the owners of the Jack said, "It could've been a child." I would've been tempted to slap them across the face. It doesn't help the situation because she's already dealing with a lot with her dog and fostering those ideas just works against the dog even more. I would never let someone take Pete away from me on the basis of "it might be a child", but I could at least understand if Pete had several incidents like Brindi and it would happen again if I slipped up. It might never be a child for Brindi and by fostering that fear and euthanizing a dog because of something that hasn't happened yet and may never happen is unfair.

 

I still think it's unfair for her dog to be PTS because of the dog related incidents, but there is a good chance it will happen again at any slip of management by the owner (and I know this from personal experience). She isn't fit for her dog, even though she loves her so, but euthanasia may be the only real solution unless miraculously someone offers to help. I would hate myself if I was the reason for something like what happened to Sage, and it very possibly could be the outcome for another dog if Brindi stays in the care of her owner. Reality is that no one is probably going to want to adopt this dog and be able to manage her, so it might be time to say goodbye, as painful as it is.

[lrayburn]

RDM's comment is true - dog aggression and human aggression are not the same thing. However, an attack on a pet dog could certainly result in a human being injured. It is not likely the dog would turn and target a toddler if it has not shown human aggression before but chances are good that someone could be injured trying to protect their pet.

 

I have heard of at least one horrific incident where a man and woman were mauled by two dogs when the original target of the attack was a pet dog. The woman made the rather unwise choice to cover her dog with her body and was mauled severely. The man became the target of the dogs' aggression when he stepped in to protect the woman.

 

I don't think it matters what the dog's background or breed is - it is the owner's job to behave responsibly wether the dog came from a breeder or was adopted from a shelter. What is most unsettling about this situation is the total lack of responsibility taken by the owner. She had several serious wakeup calls and chose not to act proactively to protect other dogs and her own. There is little indication that her behavior and thus the dog's situation is likely to change should the dog be returned to her. How many swings does she get before she strikes out?

 

Lisa

[juliepoudrier]

I just believe that there's some way to educate the woman, restrict Brindi and keep other dogs safe.

Amelia,

I might have agreed with you except for the fact that the woman was ordered to keep her dog muzzled when out in public (a muzzle is a pretty effective restriction, don't you think?) and couldn't even manage then to prevent the dog from escaping her house unmuzzled. I'm not sure how a fence would help--the dog could just as easily escape through a gate as it could through a door, again unmuzzled because with a fence the owner might reasonably feel the dog could go out in its own yard unmuzzled, since that's not really "public." I also believe that like with many things, until a human can admit responsibility for events that happen as a result of the human's actions, no amount of re-education will work. This person can't even admit that she's largely at fault. How is requiring her to take the dog to an obedience class going to fix that? Will it suddenly make her more careful when she opens her door (or the gate to her yard)? Will it make her pay attention to what other dogs are around before she opens a door or gate? Until she recognizes the gravity of the situation and her own role in it and resolves in her mind to do everything within her power to prevent her dog from ever having the chance to attack another, she and her dog are just an "accident" waiting to happen.

 

J.

[BustopherJones]

Definition of Ad Hominem Abusive:

Ad Hominem Abusive: A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

 

The defense rests its case.

[Shetlander]

But, we can't have it both ways. We can't criticize the fact that dogs are bred while shelter pets die and criticize the ones who adopt when they demonstrate less than optimum ownership skills and responsibility.

 

So someone who adopts from a shelter should get a free pass as far as responsibility for their dog's behavior? I'm not following the logic.

 

She says she can't see her dog! Why? So, let me get this straight, we allow alleged and convicted child molestors to have supervised (or not) visitation with their children, but this kind woman can't hang out with her dog?

 

All I'll say in response to this type of argument is we should keep in mind we have exactly one side of the story and even with that one side, there is almost certainly minimizing and slanting going on. The owner's cluelessness (however kind and well intentioned she may be) seems pretty obvious, at least to me.

[Krambambuli]

The fact that the dog has gotten away from the woman on several occasions is what I don't quite understand. After the very first time, I would have been extremely careful and strict about the dog never being off the leash and dashing out the door. It's pretty easy to keep the door closed until the dog is safely on leash (and muzzled). I don't have a fenced yard and I know my dog will run after critters or cars, and her recall is, let's say, poor, in those situations. So she is always leashed prior to going out, end of story. If I have to open the door for visitors, I always make sure I know where the dog is (she's afraid of visitor so I don't really have the dashing-for-an-open-door problem), just in case. How hard are these little security measures really? Not hard at all!

 

It would be sad for the dog to die in the end, but I am not sure I'd give it back to the owner. Maybe someone else. Tough call.

[Shetlander]

If the owner gets the dog back and does NOT take the necessary steps that have been so clearly and eloquently suggested in this thread, what guarantee exists that this dog will not get loose again and next time attack a small child?

 

Everything I've read in studies shows that animal and people aggression are not linked. In fact, I'd almost bet good money it is much rarer to find a dog with both types of aggression rather than one or the other.

 

Moving into anecdotes, I had a horribly animal aggressive dog many years ago. He also was by far the friendliest, most forbearing dog I've ever owned when it came to people. Never met a person who wasn't his long time best friend. Absolutely bombproof with children. But literally wanted to kill any dog or cat, puppy or kitten he didn't know. When he started going after my other pets, I made the heart wrenching decision to put him down. One of my nightmare scenarios was that he'd get loose (never did), attack someone's dog or cat (also never happened) and when they tried to save their pet, they got badly bit. The thought always made my blood run cold.

 

Even if the dog is "rehabilitated", what assurance exists that it will not snap again in the future?

 

There are no guarantees for that sort of thing -- in people or animals. You go by level of risk and danger in those situations.

[BustopherJones]

Everything I've read in studies shows that animal and people aggression are not linked. In fact, I'd almost bet good money it is much rarer to find a dog with both types of aggression rather than one or the other.

A rational and reasonable response; thank you for the insight.

[Ooky]

Everything I've read in studies shows that animal and people aggression are not linked. In fact, I'd almost bet good money it is much rarer to find a dog with both types of aggression rather than one or the other.

 

Yes, I see how this would be true. But I think there is an argument to be made that once any "aggressive" animal is in that place where they've lost their mind, they're biting and angry/fearful, and all they see is red, they are more likely than any dog who doesn't ever get worked up that way to inadvertently injure a person. Especially a person trying to intervene in the attack. So the real trigger might only be other dogs, but I could see how practically speaking, this could leave you with a dog that is more prone to hurt a human because they have a definite trigger, likely to be in public, that sends them into the no-control zone.

 

BTW, I know every dog and other living creature has some stimulus or trigger that will make them lose it and it doesn't mean anything about their general safetly or livability. I can just see how the two types of incidents (dog and people injury) could be at least statistically related, even if the two types of aggression are actually quite distinct.

[bc4ever]

Oh for crying out loud, grow a pair.

RDM

BTW, I know every dog and other living creature has some stimulus or trigger that will make them lose it..

Obviously.

[Laurae]

To be fair, it does seem like every time we have a discussion about what should be done about dog aggression, someone invariably warns us that "a child might be next!" I never understand why some folks keep trotting out this dire proclamation when the fallacy that dog aggression = people aggression gets corrected every single time. It's tiresome and may explain impatience on the part of the people who take turns setting the record straight.

[JohnLloydJones]

One of my nightmare scenarios was that he'd get loose (never did), attack someone's dog or cat (also never happened) and when they tried to save their pet, they got badly bit.

 

This is one of those scenarios that is always in the back of my mind. Here's an example of how things can go horribly wrong.

 

We are in the off-leash area of the dog park. Sennca spots a dog that looks like fun so she comes up to the dog (who is on a leash) and starts to initiate play. The leashed dog thinks this is fun and tries to respond. The person at the other end of the leash gets agitated and screams to me to control my dog because she is attacking his dog. As I try to break them up, this gentleman starts kicking wildly with aim at Senneca, who of course, is ten times faster than the person, so I was able to grab her and pull her to safety. Now, if he had actually managed to hit her, I really have no idea what might have happened. She is gentle and submissive, but responds furiously if another dog snarls in her face. I don't think she would have appreciated getting a direct hit from this guy's foot. Even a snarl and a nip would be interpreted as aggression by the clueless.

[Eileen Stein]

It's tiresome and may explain impatience on the part of the people who take turns setting the record straight.

 

Nothing justifies RDM's remark. A dog whose threshhold or trigger for snapping was that low would be in serious trouble.

 

There's little point in deleting the remark after it's been quoted so extensively, but I don't want to see any further references to it, or any further remarks of that kind.