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Autumn, it's my understanding that the only reason to show a dog in conformation is to prove that it's the best candidate to be bred? So why bother? What is your motivation?

And quite honestly, if the amount of money invested is directly proportional to the need to show...I've got a Pit mix that should take Best In Show.

 

Maria

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I wish I'd seen this sooner! I wanted to have a betting pool for how many posts it would take for the first conformation-type dog owner to get her panties in a wad and take it all personally!! Bummer.

 

RDM

 

We can still have a pool about how long it will take for a new junior member to sign on that has working dogs who show too..... :rolleyes:

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Geez, when will I ever learn that by responding to these types of threads I'm only stepping into the trap. I should know by now that you people only want to bash conformation people.

 

"I would ask you the same thing.

 

 

QUOTE(Liz P @ Feb 13 2008, 03:28 PM)

Autumn, if you show your dog in the breed ring then you ARE supporting breeding BCs for show because you are supporting the system that produces them."

 

I don't see how showing my BC for fun is supporting breeding BCs. As when I bought Ghost (As I have stated before :rolleyes: ) I didn't know any better, and I didn't know it was such a horrible thing to BREED BCs for show purposes only. It is the same thing as people who buy from BYBs. (And from what I've heard, many people on this board have done this) They learned later on that it wasn't the best thing that they've done, and they won't do it again. But if their BC happened to turn out show quality, I wouldn't sneer at them for showing it in the breed ring, simply for fun.

 

"You typed:

 

 

QUOTE

Now that I have him, and have put at least $2000 into him, I sure as hell am going to SHOW him.

 

 

Yet several posts later

QUOTE

I never said that the money spent on him MADE him showable.I have put a lot of money into getting show supplies for him, paying for training lessons, going to classes every week. I'm not going to throw all that down the drain.

 

 

Make up your mind please.

 

Excuse me, but I don't see where I said anywhere that paying that much made him showable. Simply that I have put a lot of money, time and effort into getting him show READY. I have made up my mind, and haven't gone back and forth, maybe you should reread my posts.

 

And there is a lot more to buy then "A brush? A comb? shampoo? a leash?". You are forgetting the grooming table, straight and thinning shears, and the dryer, gas to get to the show, show entry fees and hotel room fees, to mention just a few.

 

And I have taken him to obedience class. :D Along with agility, rally, herding and handling classes.

 

jdarling, all I have to say is.... wow. I think I know myself better than you know me. (Considering we've never met)

 

And on your other post, I'm not out to prove anything. I enjoy conformation showing, but obviously the BC isn't the best dog to get into this sport seriously with. So I am looking for another breed that I can show in conformation without being constantly attacked for my views. I plan to still keep BCs (But no longer show/sport bred), and I would love to eventually trial, which I know is a long ways off. That is my goal, I'm not "out to prove" anything. I do what I do because I enjoy it.

 

Maria, as stated before, I show because I enjoy it. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

And MrSnappy, yes, I do want to show dogs, as I've stated before, another breed after Ghost. I am showing Ghost for FUN and experience.

 

And yes, I would like to be accepted by the people here, as I really love border collies, but I don't think that's going to happen simply because I have different views.

 

I guess I can expect lots of nasty looks on the field when I go out with Sierra, who I would really love to trial with.

 

Don't fit in with the pure conformation people, don't fit in with the working people. Yay, I guess I'll just be lonely off by myself and completely give up on my dreams.

 

I hate my life.

 

Autumn

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I don't see how showing my BC for fun is supporting breeding BCs.

 

Autumn, when you enter Ghost into a show, who do you make the check out to? (Simple question. No trap. Should have a very simple answer.)

 

Don't fit in with the pure conformation people, don't fit in with the working people. Yay, I guess I'll just be lonely off by myself and completely give up on my dreams.

 

I hate my life.

 

C'mon now ... we can leave the drama out, right?

 

Jodi

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And on your other post, I'm not out to prove anything. I enjoy conformation showing, but obviously the BC isn't the best dog to get into this sport seriously with.

 

Sport? It's a sport?

 

What's fun about conformation, exactly?

 

Anyway, look - for someone who has been on these boards for nearly 3 years, you shouldn't be surprised by a. this thread and b. the issue people take with your statements. I shouldn't have to remind you to read the sticky and remember what these boards are geared toward, and you should know better than to espouse the joys of conformation.

 

Seriously.

 

RDM

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Autumn, when you enter Ghost into a show, who do you make the check out to? (Simple question. No trap. Should have a very simple answer.)

 

 

C'mon now ... we can leave the drama out, right?

 

Jodi

 

That would be the breed club who is hosting the show. (Who BTW do many other things then just promote breeding for conformation)

 

And no, can't leave the drama out, cause that's what this post is about isn't it? I need to find the definition of troll somewhere. I think that would fit this thread nicely.

 

Point I was trying to make is, you all are driving off a whole group of people who simply show for fun. Shame.

 

And it's convienent how you just skipped through the whole middle of my post.

 

Autumn

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Sport? It's a sport?

 

What's fun about conformation, exactly?

 

Anyway, look - for someone who has been on these boards for nearly 3 years, you shouldn't be surprised by a. this thread and b. the issue people take with your statements. I shouldn't have to remind you to read the sticky and remember what these boards are geared toward, and you should know better than to espouse the joys of conformation.

 

Seriously.

 

RDM

 

Some people would argue that they find nothing fun about trialing. You would disagree most likely, but that doesn't mean their feelings are any less valid.

 

And I may have joined this board in 2005, but I wasn't even active, I may have read a thread, maybe two. I only started to get active on this board about a month ago.

 

I'm not espousing the joys of comformation, I, personally, enjoy it. But I don't go around telling everyone how wonderful conformation showing is.

 

Autumn

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Autumn:

 

Good for you for doing what you can with your dog. I'm not sure why some USBCHA-er's need to be looking over the shoulder of the "other guys" so obsessively. The split was made; NB is established.

 

BTW: can someone point me a pedigree decipher-er? I'm interested in an arcane fact, which is the percentages of nationality in the dog's lines. Example:

 

Scottish: 15%; Welsch: 37%; English: 21%; Irish: 0%; Continental: 0%

 

(numbers are only representational in this case.)

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Autumn:

 

Good for you for doing what you can with your dog. I'm not sure why some USBCHA-er's need to be looking over the shoulder of the "other guys" so obsessively. The split was made; NB is established.

 

BTW: can someone point me a pedigree decipher-er? I'm interested in an arcane fact, which is the percentages of nationality in the dog's lines. Example:

 

Scottish: 15%; Welsch: 37%; English: 21%; Irish: 0%; Continental: 0%

 

(numbers are only representational in this case.)

 

Thank you :rolleyes:

 

And my friend linked me to www.anadune.com You need to register, but it provides details of dogs hip scores, tns, cea etc scores, pedigree, number of offspring, and wins.

 

Autumn

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And the breed club then turns around and writes a check to who in order to be able to have the show sanctioned?

 

That would be the AKC (Who BTW do many other things then just promote breeding for conformation)

 

.... I feel like we're going around in circles here.

 

Autumn

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That would be the AKC (Who BTW do many other things then just promote breeding for conformation)

 

.... I feel like we're going around in circles here.

 

Autumn

 

Nope that's just you chasing your tail as you yell "I'm not chasing my tail; I'm just running in circles and it's in front of me!"

 

It's the same thing Autumn.

 

Quit complaining about being dirt poor and what you plan to spend for an activity you've agreed has no value for the breed or you dog. It's offensive to those of us who work everyday with those that are really poor...as is no food, can't keep a dog because they really can't afford to live themselves.

 

All I see you doing is making choices. You want us to approve of your choices, and we don't, so you whine and bluster. Grow up.

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Frankly, Autumn, you need to relax. I've been in your shoes, I started out with a half show-bred dog, and I thought every comment in regards to show dogs was a direct attack on my Dakota. It's not. Frankly, those dogs ARE fat. Not Ghost, not all dogs with show lines behind them, but those dogs in that video.

 

Dakota's a half-brother to your Ghost, and he is a hell of a good dog. He (along with my folks' dog, Dash) is probably "show quality", but I choose not to show him because I don't care to support that industry and those activities with Border Collies. Dakota wouldn't like standing still in a ring, he likes to do agility, do goose control on golf courses and move sheep and ducks around on occasion. There are so many other fun things you can do with your dog that you both will enjoy more. Agility, obedience, some very basic stock work... Something that requires more out of the handler and dog than looking pretty. You'll feel so much more satisfied when you are successful at something that requires effort and brains from both the dog and handler!

 

Conformation shows are supposed to be an evaluation of breeding stock. What's the point in showing if you aren't going to breed the dog in question? It's not that much fun, really. It can be quite hurtful, and I say this because if you are taking this thread personally, what are you going to do when a judge dumps your dog or says he's a bad example of the breed based only on his appearance?

 

I can vouch for the fact that showing in conformation is quite expensive and time consuming. Why not do something more fun with your time and money?

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That would be the AKC

 

And who has a breed standard in place to which breeders do their best to breed to? The AKC, correct? So any money you give to your breed club goes directly to the corporation who promotes a standard to which breeders need to breed to in order to win in the conformation ring. That standard has nothing in there about working ability. It is based solely on looks alone. So in an earlier thread, you were asking how you were supporting the breeding of conformation dogs simply by showing your dog for fun. You are doing your part to keep the AKC in business. If Border Collie owners would stand up and say, "This isn't right. These dogs should be bred based on their working ability, not on how they look," then the AKC would have to change things in order to keep/get the support of the BC community, no? But that's not what's happening. The AKC community thinks they all have crystal balls and can tell if a BC will work simply by how its ears lay, or how short its back legs are, or how heavy the coat is, or how white the collar is. And don't forget the "flying trot." Gotta have that.

 

So go ahead and show your dog. Give the AKC your money. But please do not deny supporting the breeding of conformation dogs, and then claim that you believe that dogs should be bred for working ability. It doesn't work both ways.

 

Jodi

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Conformation shows are supposed to be an evaluation of breeding stock. What's the point in showing if you aren't going to breed the dog in question? It's not that much fun, really. It can be quite hurtful, and I say this because if you are taking this thread personally, what are you going to do when a judge dumps your dog or says he's a bad example of the breed based only on his appearance?

 

I can vouch for the fact that showing in conformation is quite expensive and time consuming. Why not do something more fun with your time and money?

 

That's an excellent point! I've felt as if my own dogs were bashed here on the board but recently I took Wentworth (he's from a working farm...Mom is a working dog through and through but dad is unknown) to some classes and someone with a conformation bred BC looked at Wenty and said he had nothing of a border collie....unlike hers who has international champions behind him. She added that Wenty would not even be allowed near a show ring and I heard her whispering to her friend that his long gangly legs were "unattractive". Pissed me off to be honest, not because he wasn't show quality, but simply because she was judging my dog! And to me he's perfect. Just like my show bred dogs are perfect..because they're mine. If you put yourself out there to be judged, you need to learn that you're not always going to hear what you want....and in life, sometimes even when you don't put yourself out there!

 

Maria

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bluegrassclassic2008sm.jpg

 

'

Any of you care to guess how this dog is bred? Quite frankly I think I was more concerned with the 'fluffiness' of a great many of the handlers than the dogs...

 

Don't know...but Patrice does lovely work! Can't resist plugging her talent!

Maria

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You know what, I'm done with this thread.

 

You all aren't right all the time, and neither am I. But simply because I have a different point of view I'm told I CAN'T have it! That is ridiculous. Get off your high horses. I have a show/sport bred BC, I'm going to show him in conformation shows, agility, rally and herding. I don't support the breeding of BCs for show only, and I will never buy another BC bred that way again. (Putting my money where my mouth is, and have been all along)

 

I don't believe that calling other people's dogs fat is going to help ANYTHING, except get people pissed off, and push them further away. I thought the point of this board was to educate people about WHY BCs should be bred. I guess if they've made some "bad" choices in their life, and maybe have some ideas that are different from yours they just all get lumped in with the pot.

 

There's no point in talking to most of you, because you don't want to learn. You don't want to acknowledge that there is another reality seperate from your own, and if someone trys to say that there is you all band together to tar and feather them just so you can go to sleep at night with your delusion alive and well.

 

Sorry, but I don't see the world through rose-colored glasses.

I see life as it is, take it as it comes, and try to make the best of it.

And I will never look down on someone simply because they have views seperate from my own.

In fact, I learn from such people.

 

I'm sorry if I offended some of you, that was never my intention. But I couldn't stand by as it happened.

It isn't right. Not right at all.

 

Autumn

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Little Bo Boop ... Lovely artwork! I imagine there's probably one of two reasons your asking. 1) It's a working bred dog out of some very nice working lines with a lot of coat; or 2) it's a show bred dog. I'll go with 1.

 

Autumn ... no one is telling you that you can't have an opinion. I understand that when you're 18, you feel you know everything, and it's great that you think you do. It gives you the skill to tackle the world and not take no for an answer. It's a wonderful quality to have. Sometimes, though, you run into people with a bit more experience than you, and they may have travelled a long ways down the road that you have just turned on to, and listening to them for the shortcuts might save you a lot of heartache, instead of telling them they're wrong because you have a map in your hands and you know better. Good luck to you. I hope you can figure out what you believe in, stand for it, and go for it, rather than sitting on the fence.

 

HDS, who are you talking about? And what is a "pure ABCA dog"? And more importantly, what's the relevance behind the statement?

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Little Bo Boop ... Lovely artwork! I imagine there's probably one of two reasons your asking. 1) It's a working bred dog out of some very nice working lines with a lot of coat; or 2) it's a show bred dog. I'll go with 1.

 

Autumn ... no one is telling you that you can't have an opinion. I understand that when you're 18, you feel you know everything, and it's great that you think you do. It gives you the skill to tackle the world and not take no for an answer. It's a wonderful quality to have. Sometimes, though, you run into people with a bit more experience than you, and they may have travelled a long ways down the road that you have just turned on to, and listening to them for the shortcuts might save you a lot of heartache, instead of telling them they're wrong because you have a map in your hands and you know better. Good luck to you. I hope you can figure out what you believe in, stand for it, and go for it, rather than sitting on the fence.

 

HDS, who are you talking about? And what is a "pure ABCA dog"? And more importantly, what's the relevance behind the statement?

 

 

Jodi my dear, that dog is a straight AKC bred dog without a lick, and I do mean a lick of working stock in her pedigree, nothing, nada, zip ;-) She actually works pretty nice. You're not going to run her in Open, but she'd get around a Ranch course or possibly an Open Ranch course. Her image/this pic, will be on the caps and t-shirts for the Bluegrass ;-) Just goes to show there are no absolutes :rolleyes: well aside from death and taxes I guess....

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I actually love this yearly discussion... it always amuses me and I adore watching the tangents occur. I think the best part is watching the people who were new the year before try to help the newbies and ending up getting told off and lumped in with the rest of the pack as Know-it-alls. Ahhh the circle of life, Hakuna Mata indeed.

Sara

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And yes, that red dog, having to have its muzzle held while the judge touched him/her, was a bit scary.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that the dog has "issues". It's along the line of when you control the head you control the rest of the dog. Maybe the dog moves around too much when the judge examines him, maybe he's not one that a piece of bait is enough for him to focus on, so that little pressure on the muzzle is a reminder to keep still while the judge does his thing.

 

I notice no pic of Best of Breed was posted this year. Could it be because the dog would look like last year's, and the year before and the year before that and the year before that -- well, you get my drift.

 

The outfits -- Group judging at the Garden is an evening affair, so you dress in evening attire -- you know, just the the shepherd's did years ago.

(slap slap. My bad)

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