Did you see how the handlers were dressed?

[Laurae]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Autumn. As Danielle already said, it ain't their coats that's causing each side of their wide backs to rock and roll with each step taken...

 

And you can only tell if he is clearly fat by actually laying your hands on him.

 

Autumn

[MaryP]

Would it be better to call them "weight challenged"?

 

 

I have a weight-challenged dog, but his problem is hypothyroidism. Even so, he is more trim than the dogs in that video.

[Lenajo]

You can't say something like that unless you've actually HAD your hands on the dog.

 

Actually you can, because its a known and proven fact that most show dogs are deliberately kept overweight. Well known performance vet and author Christine Zink gave an estimate that most "show weight" dogs need to lose at about *15 POUNDS* before they attempt sport or working training.

 

It's the same way in American horse "halter" (conformation) shows for former "working" horse breeds like the Quarter horse. Those horses are "bulked" up, keeping them semi fit and coating the muscles with fat so they give a big beefy look. To work those horses under saddle they sometimes need to loose 2-3 hundred pounds.

[Lenajo]

And you can only tell if he is clearly fat by actually laying your hands on him.

 

Autumn

 

If you have to lay your hands see that a dog is obese then you don't know what your doing.

 

Even the dog food company Purina has a weight chart that you learn to *look* at a dog to see if it is overweight.

 

Rolling topline, no tuck up....fat dog

[Lenajo]

I never said that I was going to breed Ghost. I got him as a show prospect before I knew that much about the whole show vs. working thing. Now that I have him, and have put at least $2000 into him, I sure as hell am going to SHOW him. But will I breed him? No, he is going to be neutered after his show career is over.

 

Autumn

 

What the...? Since when does money spent on a dog make him showable? make it right to show him? change the politics and ethics of the whole game?

 

If money spent on the dog means its showable then I've got 2 Westminster BOBs sleeping at my house right now. Heck forget just WKC...these guys have financially qualified for Crufts and Eukanumba too!

 

And when he gets that championship and somebody's standing there with 2k in hand to breed their own champ to him what will you do?

 

Sometimes I forget how money changes everything. Silly silly me.

[Kate@JIm]

These are NOT border collies!!!

 

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=216651

 

Very very sad!!!

[Soda-pop]

Once, someone called my Cash fat without having touched him and I almost had a stroke. I MADE them put their hands on him and then say out loud that no, indeed, he wasn't fat and was just fluffy.

 

I have a hard time telling who's fat and who's not on coated dogs, but I saw on Westminster a fat G. Dane, which I thought was really sad. With smooth dogs like that I want to see muscles and tone, not just NOT fat, you know what I mean? But he was jiggly, even!

 

I always feel sorry for the pekingese. They looks so miserable.

 

And what always kills me about conformation handlers is the shoes. AWFUL! Just awful. Horrible ugly granny shoes.

 

PS. Fat or fluffy? You decide:

 

 

ETA: His tipped ears are natural! LOL

[Liz P]

I know a Lab person, a vet actually, who takes 30 lbs off when the dogs move from the show ring to the agility/obedience ring.

 

People keep their dogs fat in the ring to make them look like they have more bone and "substance."

 

 

Autumn, if you show your dog in the breed ring then you ARE supporting breeding BCs for show because you are supporting the system that produces them.

[MaryP]

PS. Fat or fluffy? You decide:

 

I vote, cute!

[PSmitty]

I wanted to call What not to wear on a few of those handlers....

 

Amen, sista!

 

Wanna see fat show dogs? Check out the labs. Geez. There's no wonder why Fluffy and Spot next door are overweight, when they have "role models" like that.

[1sheepdoggal]

I think that most people missed the point of the OP. (At least what I took to be the point) This thread is supposed to be about education, NOT calling the dogs fat, and I for one am extremely offended, as one of my BCs is show/sport bred, and he most certainly is NOT fat.

 

 

Oh the drama.

 

I sure as hell am going to SHOW him. But will I breed him? No, he is going to be neutered after his show career is over.

 

 

Sure.

 

And when he gets that championship and somebody's standing there with 2k in hand to breed their own champ to him what will you do?

 

 

Thats right, then what?

 

Thats what showing dogs is all about. The money it takes to campain and get a dog to the bigs show, the money it gets when it wins, and the money its gonna bring by breeding. Showing is all about the best of the best, and breeding more of it to the rest. Been there, done that, ran in the same circles, cant tell me no different.

[Geoffrey]

"I know a Lab person, a vet actually, who takes 30 lbs off when the dogs move from the show ring to the agility/obedience ring."

 

I'm glad to know some people actually take the weight back OFF once the dog is showing. A lot of the lab people I know refuse to acknowledge that rolls and flabby stomachs are NOT muscle - hence, when the dogs go into agility they are plagued by injuries and CANNOT be show on full height jumps because they are physically incapable of clearing 24" (sometimes even 20").

 

To get the topic back on BCs - a good number of show BCs are fat too...and I *have* had my hands on them (at agility shows).

[Flamincomet]

I can see how most of you are used to thin, lean working BCs, but I really just think you guys love to bash these dogs, and will say whatever you possibly can to justify it.

 

And for good reference, THIS dog is obese:

 

I know because he is my fiance's family dog. I have physically handled him on many occasions.

 

I do not believe that those BCs are obese. Probably fatter than your working dogs, as mentioned before, but not obese.

 

Autumn

[Kyrasmom]

Autumn, if it's any consolation, better fat than ugly which is what we usually get in the Yearly Westminster Thread. But seriously, none of this is about your dog and many dogs (show and pet) are overweight. It's a reality. Whether yours is or isn't is something that only you know.

 

I will say that sometimes all that coat does hide a skinny dog though. I offer up proof in the form of my obviously conformation bred fluff-butt William who has enough coat for 3 dogs and we have to constantly put our hands on him to make sure he's not getting any skinnier!

 

Unlike Gracie...for whom I have to measure kibble...much to her chagrin. She looks itty bitty most of the time but has some extra wiggle to her.

 

 

I know it's not easy to not take things personally (believe me I know) but nothing in this thread is anything to get bothered about.

 

Maria

[Flamincomet]

What the...? Since when does money spent on a dog make him showable? make it right to show him? change the politics and ethics of the whole game?

 

If money spent on the dog means its showable then I've got 2 Westminster BOBs sleeping at my house right now. Heck forget just WKC...these guys have financially qualified for Crufts and Eukanumba too!

 

And when he gets that championship and somebody's standing there with 2k in hand to breed their own champ to him what will you do?

 

Sometimes I forget how money changes everything. Silly silly me.

 

Yes, silly you.

 

I never said that the money spent on him MADE him showable.

 

I have put a lot of money into getting show supplies for him, paying for training lessons, going to classes every week. I'm not going to throw all that down the drain. I WILL be showing him, because that is the main reason I bought him for. Now that I have learned differently, I will NOT be buying another show/sport bred BC. (Do you people ever actually read what I type?)

 

And I am not some money hungry person, I am DIRT poor BTW.

 

But NO, I still wouldn't breed him if someone was standing there with 2k.

 

Hard to believe? Too bad, Believe it.

 

Autumn

[Lenajo]

I do not believe that those BCs are obese. Probably fatter than your working dogs, as mentioned before, but not obese.

 

I've stood next to the red dog before he went into the ring before and I can tell you he's *fat*, as in obese. As are 99.9% of his counterparts in the ring. I know handlers who've attempted the versatility thing (show and work both) who've been chastised for bringing "unfit" (as in too thin) fit working dogs into the ring.

 

I've done the show thing with another breed, even <gasp> years ago tried showing one of my own BCs myself (that in itself is a story for another time ) Showing is about breeding stock, period. If it wasn't that "for fun" showing people would not feel the need to put that CH title on the ad for their puppies. But they always do...even though they just do the show for fun, and breed for fun..etc etc.

[MaryP]

I have put a lot of money into getting show supplies for him, paying for training lessons, going to classes every week. I'm not going to throw all that down the drain. I WILL be showing him, because that is the main reason I bought him for. . . (Do you people ever actually read what I type?) [emphasis added]

 

I would ask you the same thing.

 

Autumn, if you show your dog in the breed ring then you ARE supporting breeding BCs for show because you are supporting the system that produces them.

[aBC4me]

I can't get the video to play from the show, is anyone else having problems with it?

[Lenajo]

You typed:

 

Now that I have him, and have put at least $2000 into him, I sure as hell am going to SHOW him.

 

Yet several posts later

I never said that the money spent on him MADE him showable.I have put a lot of money into getting show supplies for him, paying for training lessons, going to classes every week. I'm not going to throw all that down the drain.

 

Make up your mind please.

 

If you are "dirt poor", then *stop* spending money on stuff like showing. Put the stuff you bought up for sale, and put that money into neutering the dog - things that he needs, and things you say you are going to do anyway but are spending your money on show supplies and classes every week.

 

Show supplies? A brush? A comb? shampoo? a leash? What exactly is so expensive about this? You need 3 of those anyway, and a leash to show is maybe $10. If he's going to be a companion then spend your money on obedience classes, not show ones that do nothing for his future in that regard. Now if you are talking about show *entries* then don't spend what you don't have.

 

I've spent over half my life on reading people and dogs professionally. When people say things like you do, then lament their lack of money, the changes they are going to turn down something as easy and cheap as a stud fee is next to none. I'm looking forward to you being the exception to the rule. However...that said...if you were going to put your money where you mouth was then your dog would be already neutered.

[Lenajo]

Actually if you guys would read our posts you would find it would be "better ugly than fat"

 

If anything is done to a fault on this list, it is the push for all of us to keep our dogs healthy and lean. No matter what their job in life is, or if they are speutered or intact.

 

I don't see what's complicated about seeing who's fat and thin in those pics. The male dog has a distinct tuck up - noted where his hair dents inat his flank, and his face is thin. The female had fat coverage over her face and chest. You don't even need to see the rest really, but I'm sure it would confirm it.

[jdarling]

I have put a lot of money into getting show supplies for him, paying for training lessons, going to classes every week. I'm not going to throw all that down the drain. I WILL be showing him, because that is the main reason I bought him for. Now that I have learned differently, I will NOT be buying another show/sport bred BC. (Do you people ever actually read what I type?)

 

"Even though I now know better, I am STILL going to show him -- rather than cut my losses, stand up for what I say I believe in, and move on. How dumb would that be? I keep mentioning all this money that I dumped into him, but don't you think for one second that I will try to recoup any of that by breeding him when he's a successful show dog. Nope. Nope. Nope. I'm going to tell all those prestigious handlers that I am not interested, and then I'm going to neuter him, despite the thousands of dollars I could make. Geez! Isn't anyone listening to me?"

[jdarling]

From another thread, flamincomet said:

 

I'm looking into other herding breeds to show in conformation, and this would be nice to know so I don't stumble onto the BC type politics again O_o Anyone know if the Belgian Sheepdog is still a reputable herding dog?

 

Flamincomet, what exactly is your goal? What are you looking to do? Are you out to prove something? If so, what is it? Why are you hellbent on taking the "herding breeds" into the conformation ring when you have zero experience in working dogs on livestock and seeing the damage, first hand, what the breeders who breed for conformation have done to the various herding breeds? Where are you going with this? Please explain.

 

Jodi

[Kyrasmom]

Actually if you guys would read our posts you would find it would be "better ugly than fat"

 

If anything is done to a fault on this list, it is the push for all of us to keep our dogs healthy and lean. No matter what their job in life is, or if they are speutered or intact.

 

I don't see what's complicated about seeing who's fat and thin in those pics. The male dog has a distinct tuck up - noted where his hair dents inat his flank, and his face is thin. The female had fat coverage over her face and chest. You don't even need to see the rest really, but I'm sure it would confirm it.

 

Actually you kind of missed the point of my post, in that if she's going to get bent out of shape over fat....then she has no idea how it would feel to get into a thread and hear hear the dogs called ugly and disgusting...etc etc. It just is what it is. I agree that all dogs should be kept as healthy as possible...and that includes weight. Same as for us. And Gracie has no fat on her head or chest...that really is the curl in her coat...she holds it nicely on her tummy...thus giving the illusion to people who see her that she is tiny. But maybe you would have to put your hands on her to know that.... which does reinforce some of what Autumn was saying. IN some dogs it's obvious...in others you need to look closer. Doesn't change that I think MOST pet and show dogs are overweight and could lost a few.

 

Maria

[HighDesertSpice]

So i just read a communique by the Leaders of the EDIT: [formerly: USBCHA] ABCA which called BC owners as "liberterians". Here here!!!

 

In that spirit, about fat dogs, I will also say that the heavy coated, well brushed out bc's you see are not necessarily fat. You do indeed need to put your hands on them. That said my mutts are ~ 3 - 5 lbs overweight.

 

Sportmanship: "conduct considered fitting for a sportsperson, including observance of the rules of fair play, respect for others, and graciousnes..."

[MrSnappy]

I wish I'd seen this sooner! I wanted to have a betting pool for how many posts it would take for the first conformation-type dog owner to get her panties in a wad and take it all personally!! Bummer.

 

Flamincomet wants to show dogs, but she wants to be accepted by the big kids on the border collie playground too. Plus, she's 18 years old - still a little kid. She can't competently debate her way through this big minefield of politics. Come on, guys.

 

RDM