Did you see how the handlers were dressed?

[Laurae]

The $64,000 question...

who gets to keep the name? The dogs who have been around for centuries or the dogs who have been around a decade or two?

 

This brings up a question that I've been curious about for a long time.

 

I'm not asking this with any sarcasm or anything - I'm really trying to sort this out.

 

Let's say one of those very same dogs who showed at Westminster this year under the classification of Border Collie ended up in rescue somehow. The owner unexpectedly passed away or something unforseen happened.

 

Now, a prospective Border Collie owner, trying to do what is best for the breed, goes to that same rescue looking for a Border Collie and adopts that show bred dog and is not given any information about the dog's background.

 

If the dog is not a Border Collie, what exactly has that person adopted?

[C Crocker]

I couldn't even watch the dog, because the shoes had my attentioin. For all of you Seinfeld fans, they reminded me of the shoes that Kramer wore in one episode that made people think he was mentally challenged. Like some shoes a cartoon character would wear. (If they are some sort of special need shoes for an ortho problem, I apologize), but man!! Those were some strange looking sh

 

Well Jimmy sure liked them. However, they didnt help George jump any higher......

 

Carolyn

[jdarling]

... I would venture a guess that there are a great many ABCA dogs (in trialing homes) that may or may not ever make it to Open, for various reasons. Having ABCA on the pedigree and having a dog that will work does not guarantee an "Open Dog". ... I have no interest in AKC, but I do find the constant bashing on these boards a little tedious...sure seems like time could be better spent working your dogs...I've not posted in a while, due mostly to the negativity and cliqueishness of the "working Border Collie folk " on this board.

 

Betty, I've been thinking about this post for a while. I understand how you feel that there is negativity, etc. I am on the other side of that coin. Every time someone mentions the fact that dogs bred for conformation, as a whole, don't work livestock worth a beans, someone inevitably mentions, "Well, what about (this one dog here) ... all show lines ... see? Show dogs DO work!" I'm sorry, but one dog is an exception to the general rule. Let's even go so far as to assume that one pup out of every show litter works stock with some degree of talent. Is this enough for me to say, "Oh breeding for conformation is just as good as breeding for work!" Not in my book. Reputable working breeders have a hard enough time producing litters where the majority of the pups work ... and those numbers only drop drastically when you're breeding for anything else -- especially conformation. Because one show dog here works, and one show dog there works, it's not going to convince me to support the very organization that I feel is responsible for destroying many working breeds (yes, it's the breeders themselves that are doing it, but only because the AKC adopts a "standard" blah blah blah).

 

And as far as the Bluegrass using a beautifully drawn depiction of a dog from show lines in a stance that appears the dog is working as their logo ... should this make me believe in show dogs all over the world? If that's the case, I would have to think monkeys riding on the backs of Border Collies while they herd sheep is the bees knees because Soldier Hollow had it there as their halftime entertainment.

 

I've done instinct testing on quite a few dogs, and it always breaks my heart to watch a show dog bounce and bark at stock, knowing that they would never be able to help me separate lambs from angry ewes so I can dock tails, tag ears, etc. So I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record. I await the day when the ABCA finally calls an end to dual registration, and where we can finally split the two breeds. I know the Barbie Collies hate the term, and I wouldn't mind calling the Working Border Collies exactly that. How about WorBors?

 

Flame away,

Jodi

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Kristine, there's a lot of assumptions there.

 

First, you are saying we'd adopt out a dog to a person without telling the person anything about the dog. That would be far from the truth. I just can't conjecture along those lines because it wouldn't happen.

 

Most Border Collie breed rescuers are knowlegeable enough about the breed to tell that they've gotten their hands on a conformation-bred dog. They would certainly pass on that information to whoever ended up with the dog. I'd call it a "conformation bred Border Collie" much like I'd use the term "Border Collie mix" - ie, I call it like I see it. A descriptive term suffices for a dog that is going to be anything short of a working dog and/or breeding stock, after all.

 

But, before that, I'd remember that the world of conformation Border Collies is a very small one and even though they all look the same to me, it might not be true of them. I'm on an AKC-show list - I'd post a pic of the dog there and see whether anyone recognisizes him or can take a guess at his lines. Remember also that all of those dogs are tatooed/chipped.

 

Let's say, however, that the dog fell into the hands of someone who wasn't knowlegeable. An all-breed rescue. Now the dog is adopted out as a "Border Collie" to someone, who then come here happily and show off their new baby.

 

Well, wouldn't it be the same as someone who thought they adopted a purebred dog and didn't, from the same sort of rescue? We'd say, I hope, "Thank you for rescuing a homeless dog! We look forward to your learning more about Border Collies here."

[Kyrasmom]

This brings up a question that I've been curious about for a long time.

 

I'm not asking this with any sarcasm or anything - I'm really trying to sort this out.

 

Let's say one of those very same dogs who showed at Westminster this year under the classification of Border Collie ended up in rescue somehow. The owner unexpectedly passed away or something unforseen happened.

 

Now, a prospective Border Collie owner, trying to do what is best for the breed, goes to that same rescue looking for a Border Collie and adopts that show bred dog and is not given any information about the dog's background.

 

If the dog is not a Border Collie, what exactly has that person adopted?

 

Until there is a official change in the name, she has adopted a Border Collie who thanks to a reputable rescue has already been spayed or neutered and for that dog, the debate ends there.

Regardless of who thinks what the real one is, for now that is the name that is allowed to be used. I suppose it would depend on the rescue and their knowledge of the whole Conformation VS Working debate, but I think for many, once it's in rescue, it's more a homeless vs homed debate and the most important thing is a good home for a nice dog. Once the dog is altered, I don't really see why a rescue would even tell a prospective adopter "oh, and by the way, yours isn't a real Border Collie". I would hope instead that the dog has been assessed and that the rescue is able to give information about its temperament, activity level...etc etc.

 

Maria

 

PS: Edited to add that as we're basically going with assumptions, for the sake of this argument, I'm assuming the dog ends up at our local pound....or SPCA.

[DebC]

Well, I want to know what they use for a conditioner - man I would love to have my hair look that good!!!!

As far as how heavy they are, I'll just say they make Bo look emaciated (at 46lbs)!

Deb C

[Root Beer]

The $64,000 question...

who gets to keep the name? The dogs who have been around for centuries or the dogs who have been around a decade or two?

 

That's kind of what I was thinking the answer was going to be and it's good to have that clarified!

[HighDesertSpice]

The $64,000 question...

who gets to keep the name? The dogs who have been around for centuries or the dogs who have been around a decade or two?

 

That's an interesting thought...I've been thinking a lot about lately. I love my farm dogs

 

Edited out~ to save space.

 

 

First, you are saying we'd adopt out a dog to a person without telling the person anything about the dog. That would be far from the truth. I just can't conjecture along those lines because it wouldn't happen.

 

Becca, with all due respect; an awful lot of bc's end up in the HS, and many operate thus: no questions asked. No records provided. BC rescuers find these dogs and pull them. EDITED OUT - self-correction. Many other bc owners (pet, sport & ranch) often accept a pound bc for their purposes. The question posed is very realistic for this PNW region.

[MaggieDog]

Just happened to look at the tibetan mastiff vid - how come there's soooo much variation in the dogs in the ring when in BCs there's hardly any, despite the fact that I'm sure both have a wide variety in the breed as a whole, BCs perhaps even more so?!

[MrSnappy]

but I think for many, once it's in rescue, it's more a homeless vs homed debate and the most important thing is a good home for a nice dog. Once the dog is altered, I don't really see why a rescue would even tell a prospective adopter "oh, and by the way, yours isn't a real Border Collie". I would hope instead that the dog has been assessed and that the rescue is able to give information about its temperament, activity level...etc etc.

 

OMG thank you.

 

While I defend the working border collie in principle and fact, if it's a matter of a dog being saved from a shelter, frankly I don't give a shit what anyone calls it.

 

RDM

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

the rescue is able to give information about its temperament, activity level...etc etc.

 

That's what I meant. I'm not saying I'd say, "Oh, your dog is a conformation dog, too bad for you". I'd say, "Oh, by the way, interesting tidbit, I'm like 80% sure this dog is from conformation lines." Interesting because actually around here that doesn't happen often. Just like I often will guess at the lines of working bred/working line dogs we get in and pass my guesses on to the new owner, just for fun.

 

Becca, with all due respect; an awful lot of bc's end up in the HS, and many operate thus: no questions asked.

 

I separated out the "all breed clueless rescue" adopter out from the case of a dog that ended up with rescuers knowledgeable about Border Collies. In the first case we say, "Thank you for saving a dog's life. Welcome and enjoy your journey." In the second case we would say, "Thank you for helping us save this dog's life. Here's what I've gleaned or guessed from my time living with this dog."

 

Remember the question was, what would we say that person now owns? Not, should we treat them any differently (the answer is, obviously, no, of course, any more than I'd treat a mixed breed differently). I answered that question as a rescuer who has adopted out "BC-wannabes" by the dozens - and as someone who has welcomed many people to this Board who adopted and even purchased conformation-bred dogs unknowingly - or even knowingly.

 

I say "Welcome! Be sure you read, 'Read This First'. We look forward to hearing more about your dog and sharing with you!"

 

Why bother with names? There are people here with dogs that look like Border Collies but aren't, and with dogs that don't look like Border Collies but are, and people who don't even have Border Collies. As long as participants understand the direction of the Board and play nice, I welcome even strenuous, heated discussion.

 

If I had my way, the ACK would have taken their merry way a long time ago - what they are doing doesn't make a bit of sense in the context of their supposed dedication to being THE registry of the most purely bred dogs in the US. I'd also be 100% behind it anytime the ABCA wanted to go for cutting off dual regs.

 

Maybe we could call them International Sheepdogs after the ISDS. Although I've always liked "Telfer Collie."

[Lenajo]

I find myself answering more and more to the "what breed is that?" question by the public...

 

"just a stockdog".

 

If that confuses them I usually follow it with "a farm dog"

 

They usually immediately lose interest.

 

What to call dogs that come into Rescue and get a good home?

 

Lucky Dogs.

 

What do I call the dogs that help me lamb sheep out in frigid weather?

 

Good Dogs

 

Any questions?

[Lenajo]

Just happened to look at the tibetan mastiff vid - how come there's soooo much variation in the dogs in the ring when in BCs there's hardly any, despite the fact that I'm sure both have a wide variety in the breed as a whole, BCs perhaps even more so?!

 

 

save that Tib video and look at the comparison video in 2, 5, and 10 years. Very interesting....

[HighDesertSpice]

EDIT:

 

I separated out the "all breed clueless rescue" adopter out from the case of a dog that ended up with rescuers knowledgeable about Border Collies. In the first case we say, "Thank you for saving a dog's life. Welcome and enjoy your journey." In the second case we would say, "Thank you for helping us save this dog's life. Here's what I've gleaned or guessed from my time living with this dog."

 

In my experience, in the PNW, the second is generally done regardless of how you may characterize the adopter.

[Root Beer]

Remember the question was, what would we say that person now owns? Not, should we treat them any differently (the answer is, obviously, no, of course, any more than I'd treat a mixed breed differently). I answered that question as a rescuer who has adopted out "BC-wannabes" by the dozens - and as someone who has welcomed many people to this Board who adopted and even purchased conformation-bred dogs unknowingly - or even knowingly.

 

That's right. I only used the rescue example to give a clear scenario where the dog owner may honestly not know the dog's background. The example was not intended to question what adopted Border Collies should be called per se. The example could just as easily apply if a conformation bred dog were given to someone as a gift and was not given info on the dog's background, or if someone inherited the dog, or found the dog on the street.

 

Why bother with names?

 

I think it is helpful to deepen my own understanding of the politics and culture of this breed.

[SoloRiver]

If I were going to adopt a conformation-bred dog I would want to know, because it would mean that I would have different expectations of that dog than I might of a real Border Collie. It doesn't mean it wouldn't be a nice dog or a wonderful companion, but it would mean it was not likely to display a number of behavioral attributes I consider important to Border Collies.

 

The point is largely moot of course, given that the conformation dogs are so homogeneous that it is not difficult to recognize them on sight unless they are extremely "incorrect."

[Sue R]

What to call dogs that come into Rescue and get a good home? Lucky Dogs.

 

What do I call the dogs that help me lamb sheep out in frigid weather? Good Dogs.

 

Any questions?

 

I really, really enjoyed this, Lenajo! No questions.

[MaryP]

I think that one thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that most of bc's that end up in rescue are neither conformation bred or working stock bred. They are simply backyard bred. My own rescue BC is likely a byb dog. He doesn't fit the mold of the conformation bred bc and sheep sort of freak him out. I love him anyway and wouldn't trade him for the world. Some day, though, I plan to get a good working bred bc because I would like to have a dog that I could trial with.

[Lenajo]

So when I get another nice little working rescue in, you want me to call you? I will deliver

 

I think what comes into rescue depends on the region.

 

 

 

I think that one thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that most of bc's that end up in rescue are neither conformation bred or working stock bred. They are simply backyard bred. My own rescue BC is likely a byb dog. He doesn't fit the mold of the conformation bred bc and sheep sort of freak him out. I love him anyway and wouldn't trade him for the world. Some day, though, I plan to get a good working bred bc because I would like to have a dog that I could trial with.

[MaryP]

So when I get another nice little working rescue in, you want me to call you? I will deliver

 

I'm not ready for one yet. But, I hope to be looking in the next couple years.

 

I think what comes into rescue depends on the region.

 

I'm sure it does. But, I just wanted to point out that not all bc's in rescue are either conformation bred or working bred. If I get a rescue bc in, I don't usually know where it came from. So, I just place it based on it's personality, activity needs, and temperament. If I happen to have registration papers that give me more information about it's background, then I pass that info on to the adopter. But, I still place the dog based on it's personality, activity needs, and temperament, and not on it's papers. If someone is specifically looking for a stock dog, I will allow them to test the dog (at their expense) to see if it has potential as a stock dog. Most people around where I live, though, are looking for companion dogs or sport dogs, though I do occasionally get contacted by people wanting a stock dog to work on their farm/ranch or just to train for trialing purposes.

[Kyrasmom]

If I were going to adopt a conformation-bred dog I would want to know, because it would mean that I would have different expectations of that dog than I might of a real Border Collie. It doesn't mean it wouldn't be a nice dog or a wonderful companion, but it would mean it was not likely to display a number of behavioral attributes I consider important to Border Collies.

 

The point is largely moot of course, given that the conformation dogs are so homogeneous that it is not difficult to recognize them on sight unless they are extremely "incorrect."

 

I agree but by and large the average adopter isn't as well educated about dogs in general, much less breeds, as most of the people on this board (and other boards). I just went through this with a close friend of mine, she's a great dog owner and came home and found her aussie mix dead on the back porch...most likely heart failure.

 

She wanted another dog...likes my dogs but doesn't care any specific behavioral attributes beyond what is going to pull at her heartstrings. Case in point, we went to our local pound, she came home with a 6 month old lab/mastiff/hound/whatever cross who is adorable. She wasn't looking for anything beyond a happy dog....and I see a lot of that in people adopting dogs. Again, maybe this comes from doing all breed rescue but the common adopter wants a healthy happy dog who will fit their lifestyle.

 

Maria

[painted_ponies]

Regarding what the handlers wear, I imagine it has a historical context. If you think about the class of people with which dog showing started, well, they were the sort to be well-dressed at all times. I'm sure what we see in the ring now is just a holdover from earlier times, no matter how impractical.

 

Au contraire. The assorted crud in which you invariably kneel at dog shows is much easier to remove from pantyhose (where it dries fairly quickly and can be popped off by plucking the hose sharply away from your knee a few times ) than from trouser legs.

 

The clunky orthopedic-looking shoes are worn because, when gaiting a dog, you want it to appear as though you're flying around the ring when actually you need to move relatively slowly to show the dog to best advantage. So the handlers fling their feet out in an exaggerated way to make it look like they're covering more ground than they actually are. This is tricky to manage in more stylish footwear.

 

The inimitable AKC-handler sense of style? No idea. Although I suspect it's because they're dressing to complement the dog, e.g. tweeds or plaids in similar color to hide a bad topline; straight skirt in a contrasting color to show off a good mover, which may not be the style most flattering to the handler. Or maybe it's because they've been up for three days straight fluffing and dyeing and primping the dogs and are just too exhausted to worry about how they look.

 

As for wrapping a hand around the dogs muzzle - I showed chows. I used to stack my little charges with one hand around its muzzle and the nails of the other hand around its testicles.

[juliepoudrier]

Sally you crack me up.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Let's say one of those very same dogs who showed at Westminster this year under the classification of Border Collie ended up in rescue somehow. The owner unexpectedly passed away or something unforseen happened.

 

Now, a prospective Border Collie owner, trying to do what is best for the breed, goes to that same rescue looking for a Border Collie and adopts that show bred dog and is not given any information about the dog's background.

 

If the dog is not a Border Collie, what exactly has that person adopted?

 

A Barbie Collie. And I'm very happy the dog was adopted and I hope it and its new person will enjoy a lifetime of happiness.

[nancy]

With all due respect to Bill, because I have never made it to a trial in any part of Yorkshire.

 

But the folks I've seen with working border collies wear mucky wellies with twill pants, wool jumpers, and canvas jackets. Then again, they are working with the dogs, not trotting around in circles with them. We were welcomed into one field - on a "permissive path" - by tow guys who alternated grabbing a lamb from its ewe, holding it high, and spraying the appropriate paint to mark its haunch. Again and again. And the dogs had to separate out the sheep and get them to the men. No time for tweed skirts and funky pumps.