no toys for working dogs?

[Liz P]

I was reading a training article last night and the author was talking about how does not give toys to BCs while he is raising them. He cited 2 reasons 1) they can make the dog silly and 2) they can make a strong eyed dog sticky and cause some bad habits on stock. After reading that I looked at my own dogs, one of which is obsessed with fetching toys, more so every year, who has also been sticky on sheep lately. I have never raised a pup without giving it toys to play with. Does it really make a difference?

 

ETD: My dog's littermate sister grew up in a kennel without toys. She is more serious and less sicky, though she has just as much eye. But that it one dog...

[juliepoudrier]

I've raised my pups with toys and can't tell that it's had an adverse effect on their work, nor do I think they are particularly silly. One of those dogs who has a good bit of eye and who still can play with toys if she chooses, is one of my open trial dogs, and she's good enough to qualify for the finals every year we've run in open, and she's my main chore dog at home. Could she have been a better dog if I had never let her have a toy? Who knows? It's not something I worry about. That said, I think if you allow anything to become an *obsession* with a dog it can be detrimental to the work. But not allowing pups to play with toys? I can't imagine it. JMO.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Bah Humbug.

 

I've heard the same thing from a big hat and during the tirade his current "toyless" puppy was running around behind him tossing a small pail in the air, sometimes evening catching it on his head with great glee. Toys don't have to be from the store, and pups, will be pups, and find something to do unless you lock them in a 3 foot box with no light. And then they'll chase their tail.

 

Toys should not supercede relationship with people, but they are part of what all young beings need to grow.

[bcnewe2]

I don't teach my working dogs to fetch because I don't like to be hassled with fetching all the time. They are allowed to play with toys on their own or with each other. I've heard the same type things about giving toys to working dogs. I choose to do my own thing and if they're less of a stock dog then so be it.

I did teach Mick to fetch a toy or stick out of the water for therapy swimming when recovering from his TBD's. He still enjoys a game of fetch but doesn't bother me to play all the time. Now he does bother me a bit to go work sheep all the time. Each time we walk out the door he longingly looks out into the field to see where his sheep are and if we're going to go work them.

 

I had a hard time getting Mick to take inside flanks cleanly when we were first driving so I sorta wrecked my "that'll do" by using it to get him to break off and start to come back to me, then would flank him and he'd be clean on that inside flank. It got out of hand so when I meant That'll do he was sure I was going to set him up for another flank and would not come off sheep. I used a stick as a toy to let him know we were really done working stock and we could play a bit of stick (not fetch but run around with one in your mouth) Worked like a dream to get his that'll do back. Now I got a dog that plays with sticks when we're done working but that's ok with me as we're done working anyways.

 

I liken it to the old myth of keeping your dogs in a dark kennel and only letting them out to exercise and work stock. The reason I was given is that stock would be their whole world. I have yet to see one of my working dogs not have stock as their whole world when they are working. And never one quit to go play with a toy.

IMO, I think it's what was done way back when (maybe still being done) and things were made up to make it all right.

 

Kristen

[bailey44]

On the day that I went to get my puppy, I was able to meet her parents and grandparents.

 

I walked down the line of pens and the farmer was describing how the dogs all work and how he couldn't operate his farm without their help. Midway down the line, I saw a big border collie flinging a pine cone all over his pen, smiling and acting goofy.

 

The farmer said it was the grandfather to my pup. Best worker on the farm.

 

I know nothing about this subject, but it just struck me that dogs enjoy playing and in the case of this dog, it didn't seem to matter if was a fancy toy or a pine cone.

 

By the way, Polly LOVES to occasionally play with a pine cone. Must run in her family.

 

Charlene

[juliepoudrier]

By the way, Polly LOVES to occasionally play with a pine cone. Must run in her family.

 

Charlene

Charlene,

Mine are pine cone fanatics as well, and they'll even settle for gumballs off a gum tree if that's all that's available. I don't throw balls for them generally, and it just goes to show, as Lenajo pointed out, that if they don't have toys, they'll just make their own out of whatever found objects they come across.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Lucy's favorite past time is digging up worms and eating them like spaghetti. GRRROSS! Did that the day she flew in from Australia, and though it has for the most part stopped, it is still really fun. Oh, and they bite little pieces off the apples from my apple tree. Life is like a box of chocolates- my yard is anyway!

Julie

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Only one of my dogs is a fetching dog. I didn't teach him, he is a natural. Seth will play with toys, but never with people. He will steal water bottles from people and go throw them in the air. Meg won't play with toys at all. Sheep have always been her obsession or tv watching. I had hoped it might make her a bit more sticky on sheep, but it never has. Mike has to have something in his mouth. If I give him nothing he will literally pick up anything that is laying around. Except something that belongs to me like socks, shoes etc...but he will pick up a small twig, a piece of baling twine, a scrap of towel...its like a pacifier to him. If he's not working, he's very bored. Its hard to say if playing with toys affected their work on sheep, but as they are all good workers and will leave a toy if I so much as say sheep, I don't think it has hurt them any. I used to notice Seth was so serious on sheep and I never felt he was happy. After a grueling two straight days of sheepworking demos, we took the dogs out to the grassy area after everyone had left and that was the first time I ever saw Seth play with a toy. It was another dogs' soft frisbee. He started running with it and tossing it in the air and jumping on on his hind legs to catch it..then he'd get running and do a somersault. It was hysterical watching him, but I realized it was an outlet for the stress he'd been under performing for two days. When ever we would trailer sheep out into the open to work and we'd work all day long, we'd always let all the dogs run around and play afterwards to unwind. But I don't raise sheep for a living and I don't trial much, so my dogs are companions mostly so even if playing with toys did affect them its not really that important to me.

[stockdogranch]

I don't throw balls or sticks or frisbees for mine, but they have their share of stuffed toys that they drag around and chew up, and some that they use to play tug with each other. They also like empty plastic water or gatorade bottles. So, like Kristen's dogs, they play by themselves or with each other. Like Julie's dog, mine qualify for the Cattle Finals every year, so I don't think it has hurt them any.

Anna

[Maizy]

Pine cones - heck...Tess will play with those big magnolia leaves in our backyard!!! Anything she can put in her mouth. We actually like her to have something in her mouth though because then it keeps her from barking while playing!!!

[Liz P]

Maybe what he meant was not that he doesn't give them toys, but that he does not play fetch with them. Given how crazy Freya is with playing fetch I have not taught her sons to play fetch. They have a massive bin full of toys that they chew, toss, and play with, but I am not encouraging the pups to really love them.

[Bo Peep]

My next door neighbor was against guns for her boy- he would pick up a stick and go "bang" -

[Pipedream Farm]

Well, I actually do play fetch with a frisbee or a ball for my dogs --on an almost daily basis. It's nothing more than a means to keep them fit. I simply don't have vast tracts of acreage to keep them fit with a 4 wheeler. I've never found it to cause a problem with any of my dogs. I really think people are seriously underestimating the intellingence of their dogs. They know the difference between playing a simple game and working sheep. Both dogs are competitive open level dogs.

Renee

[G. Festerling]

I am not sure how it would translate to the herding dogs but I have heard the same thing about other working dogs.

Any work where the toy is used as a motivation (reward rather). And then it is not no toys, but no toys without supervision. The thinking being that this way you connect the toy with the handler. Something to interact and do together. They figure that way it keeps its value to the dog unlike when he has access to it anytime.

Like I said, I don't know about sheepdogs but from my own guys I have not seen a difference with my toyobsessed dogs and the ones that are just so-so about toys.

[Daviid]

I echo Ba Humbug too!

 

I remember hearing that some 25 years ago when I started working my first border collie on sheep. I was told never to play fetch, do formal obedience, tracking, but especially never play ball with him.

 

My first dog competed in sheep trials, earned his utility title in obedience, a tracking title and loved playing fetch. - they all had there place.

Personally, I think a little variety is good, my dog loved doing it all. He would definitely pass by a ball or frisbee to work sheep.

 

Now, I'm told never do sheep work and goose work at the same time. My dogs that do goose work have no problem working sheep and chasing geese.

They're different tasks, and they know the difference.

 

I'm glad I don't always listen to people. Our dogs know best!

 

edited to add: I forgot to say when I went to pick up my last pup, the breeder didn't care for toys too much for her dogs. The poor mom had tufts of hair pulled out from her pups, as they had no toys to chew on.

[Eileen Stein]

I know many top handlers of the old school who say this, but Bill Berhow's legendary Nick (inducted into the ABCA Hall of Fame in 1998) was a notorious, tireless fetcher of sticks and balls.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

I am not sure how it would translate to the herding dogs but I have heard the same thing about other working dogs.

Any work where the toy is used as a motivation (reward rather). And then it is not no toys, but no toys without supervision. The thinking being that this way you connect the toy with the handler. Something to interact and do together. They figure that way it keeps its value to the dog unlike when he has access to it anytime.

Like I said, I don't know about sheepdogs but from my own guys I have not seen a difference with my toyobsessed dogs and the ones that are just so-so about toys.

 

In response to this, my dogs do not get tennis balls, frisbees or tugs without me actually playing with and interacting with them. This is to build drive for the particular toy in question when it is to be used as a reward. My dogs have access to all other kinds of toys, except those three, all of the time. I don't know that this is the same thing as the other folks are describing with true working dogs, though.

[juliepoudrier]

In response to this, my dogs do not get tennis balls, frisbees or tugs without me actually playing with and interacting with them. This is to build drive for the particular toy in question when it is to be used as a reward. My dogs have access to all other kinds of toys, except those three, all of the time. I don't know that this is the same thing as the other folks are describing with true working dogs, though.

Hey Debbie,

I don't think it's quite the same, because in the activities you do, the toy is a motivator/reward for performing correctly. There is no similar reward system when working stock, other than the work itself. My best trial/chore dog lives to work, but when it's clear to her we're done working, she will find something (any object she can pick up, basically) to throw at my feet to try and get me to play fetch. The reason I don't think allowing play matters is that even if she has a toy (or a raw, meaty bone for that matter, or even when she had pups that were just days old), if she sees me heading for any of the pastures/paddocks, whatever she has is left, forgotten, for the desire to work. And of course, if she does a good job, say, at a trial, I don't pull out a toy to reward her--all she's ever gotten for good work is either more work or pat on the side and simple voice praise.

 

But I can see where it makes sense if one is using a toy as a motivator for a particular task/sport to make sure that particular toy remains "special" so that it is always a great reward in the eyes of the dog. I think the difference is that the dogs (be they stockdoogs or hunting dogs, etc.) are hardwired for that particular job and so, if well bred, don't need a motivator. For anything else that's not really part of their DNA, so to speak, it makes sense that the trainer would apply a reward-based system.

 

I honestly don't understand the "old time" belief that allowing toys, etc., would ruin a dog's work ethic. My feeling is that if the dog's work ethic could indeed be ruined by playing with toys then the dog wasn't worth it's biscuit in the first place and certainly shouldn't be part of the gene pool, but that's JMO.

 

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

My next door neighbor was against guns for her boy- he would pick up a stick and go "bang" -

What I was kind of trying to point out is that dogs, if not given any toys will find one of their own. Hence the pine cone tossing and catching or a stick. One of my dogs, Migraine, just didn't play with toys. When I let them all out to exercise in the morning in the big field, we'd play Frisbee and she would herd the other dogs. However by herself she would toss up a ball and catch it herself. Not that she didn't bond with people, she was great. She just never learned how to play or it just wasn't in her. She died a few months short of Usher arriving. She could move sheep better than I could with My (bucket of) Grain.

[laurie etc]

... My best trial/chore dog lives to work, but when it's clear to her we're done working, she will find something (any object she can pick up, basically) to throw at my feet to try and get me to play fetch. The reason I don't think allowing play matters is that even if she has a toy (or a raw, meaty bone for that matter, or even when she had pups that were just days old), if she sees me heading for any of the pastures/paddocks, whatever she has is left, forgotten, for the desire to work. And of course, if she does a good job, say, at a trial, I don't pull out a toy to reward her--all she's ever gotten for good work is either more work or pat on the side and simple voice praise.

 

But I can see where it makes sense if one is using a toy as a motivator for a particular task/sport to make sure that particular toy remains "special" so that it is always a great reward in the eyes of the dog. I think the difference is that the dogs (be they stockdoogs or hunting dogs, etc.) are hardwired for that particular job and so, if well bred, don't need a motivator. For anything else that's not really part of their DNA, so to speak, it makes sense that the trainer would apply a reward-based system.

 

I honestly don't understand the "old time" belief that allowing toys, etc., would ruin a dog's work ethic. My feeling is that if the dog's work ethic could indeed be ruined by playing with toys then the dog wasn't worth it's biscuit in the first place and certainly shouldn't be part of the gene pool, but that's JMO.

J.

 

Reminds me of this past weekend at a trial... When I walked into the field with Cooper - my "energizer bunny" - to give the judge our names, there was a green tennis ball sitting in the field right next to the fence. Cooper spied it - and thought about grabbing it (She's a self-made retrieving fool - and the sheep weren't set out yet). I told her to leave it - picked it up and dropped it over the fence. At that moment, the set out guy was starting to move the sheep out - and I told her to "look". She immediately locked on to the sheep -we went to the post, and she went out and nailed the class (including winning the run-off for first place later). But when we came off the field, she went looking for that ball I had dropped. The little goof ball will pick up anything to use as a toy - even old crushed beer cans or styrofoam cups if that's all that's available, But once there are sheep in the picture- she could care less about toys. It's just part of her personality that I think is so endearing- she will try to entice even strangers to throw things for her. I do have to make a point of asking people not to give in and play with her at trials- because it tends to get her higher than she already is. Laurie

[Liz P]

I didn't get the impression from the article that the author was saying a dog given toys would chose them over sheep. He mentioned that dogs who are nuts about balls and stare at them might become sticky on sheep. I think he was saying that habits like that were what he was trying to avoid. My own dogs choose sheep over everything.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Hey Debbie,

I don't think it's quite the same, because in the activities you do, the toy is a motivator/reward for performing correctly. There is no similar reward system when working stock, other than the work itself. My best trial/chore dog lives to work, but when it's clear to her we're done working, she will find something (any object she can pick up, basically) to throw at my feet to try and get me to play fetch. The reason I don't think allowing play matters is that even if she has a toy (or a raw, meaty bone for that matter, or even when she had pups that were just days old), if she sees me heading for any of the pastures/paddocks, whatever she has is left, forgotten, for the desire to work. And of course, if she does a good job, say, at a trial, I don't pull out a toy to reward her--all she's ever gotten for good work is either more work or pat on the side and simple voice praise.

 

But I can see where it makes sense if one is using a toy as a motivator for a particular task/sport to make sure that particular toy remains "special" so that it is always a great reward in the eyes of the dog. I think the difference is that the dogs (be they stockdoogs or hunting dogs, etc.) are hardwired for that particular job and so, if well bred, don't need a motivator. For anything else that's not really part of their DNA, so to speak, it makes sense that the trainer would apply a reward-based system.

 

I honestly don't understand the "old time" belief that allowing toys, etc., would ruin a dog's work ethic. My feeling is that if the dog's work ethic could indeed be ruined by playing with toys then the dog wasn't worth it's biscuit in the first place and certainly shouldn't be part of the gene pool, but that's JMO.

J.

 

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. G. Festerling had mentioned the practice of not allowing sport dogs to play with toys and I was saying that I don't think it's the same as not allowing a working dog to not have toys. That is, unless your dog only works stock for you because he knows his reward is a good game of fetch. But seriously, that's not too likely.

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

I agree.

 

Liz,

I don't think that staring at an inanimate object would translate into stickiness on sheep, but then none of mine actually spend their day staring at toys, so maybe I just haven't experienced that. While they will play with toys by themselves, toys are mostly meaningless to them unless they can get a human to interact. I would think that a dog who is kenneled and therefore becomes obsessed with staring at toys is a dog who's not getting enough stimulation from or interaction with its human, but that's JMO. It sounds like the author is saying that the dog staring at the toy is developing too much eye and that later translates into clappiness on sheep, but I still don't buy that staring at an inanimate object will translate into staring/clapping on live animals. But I don't really know. Like I said, I think I'd address why the dog is staring at the toy in the first place, and I wouldn't think that's the fault of the presence or absence of a toy, but rather the fault of the owner for not providing the dog enough mental stimulation in the first place that it's able to become obsessed with/stares at a toy.

 

J.

[AK dog doc]

That is, unless your dog only works stock for you because he knows his reward is a good game of fetch. But seriously, that's not too likely.

 

ACK! I snorted my tea on that! I suddenly had this unexpected vision of Raven being offered a toy as a bribe for stockwork and her looking at me with an expression of total scorn and disgust, clearly saying, "Have you completely lost your MIND?!?!?"

 

:: goes off to change her tea-stained shirt ::

 

Interesting topic. Glad I haven't screwed up by teaching Raven to play frisbee (since - trust me - I'll have PLENTY of other opportunities to screw up.) I will note that she has NO interest in the 'bee unless I pick it up first... but even at my extreme-novice/microscopic hat level I'm 100% certain that I could wave it in her face in the stockpens and she'd duck it to go for the sheep, whilst wondering what on earth was WRONG with me, do I not know there are SHEEP here....? That might just be this particular dog/breeding, but...?

[Carson Crazies]

I don't think that staring at an inanimate object would translate into stickiness on sheep, but then none of mine actually spend their day staring at toys, so maybe I just haven't experienced that.

 

June really likes to stare at kongs in hopes that someone would throw one for her. If I'm around and see it I correct the situation, but I know there's kong staring that goes on when I'm not there. I can't say that she's ever been sticky on sheep a day in her life. Matter of fact, if staring at a kong would develop some eye on her and translate to sheep I'd hand her a whole bucket of them.