Picture of Turbo

[Rosanne]

I won't speak about the breeding issue. The feelings and philosophy of this forum should be clear to anyone who steps in the door, and it is spelled out VERY clearly in many a thread and in a stickied FAQ.

This is a WORKING based forum. Go to an agility board if you want strict approval for an agility dog.

 

As for weight: I can't tell if the dog is overweight. But I've been teaching agility for 10 years now, and when I taught beginners, we regularly had people come in with overweight dogs. 99% of these people said their vets had told them the dog was fine.

I even had a student who WAS a vet, tell me she knew more than I did and that her dog was not fat, just big-boned. Big, jiggly bones, I guess.

 

Guess what? There are NO muscles over the ribs. That is all fat. You should be able to feel a dog's ribs. Not see big gaps between them, but feel them. If you can't feel them easily, the dog is FAT. This is especially crucial with a large dog as the joints are under MORE stress. This aggravates HD, OCD, the spine, etc. And a tall dog must jump the highest heights to boot. Probably 26". That's a big jump for a 65lb dog. A lot of stress on all those joints.

[SoloRiver]

Solo jumping 26" always freaked me out, which is one of the reasons we didn't do much USDAA. I had planned to put him into Performance, but then retirement got in the way anyway. Weirdly enough, 26" seems worse for a taller, big-boned dog than it does for a smaller, lightly-built dog.

[Lenajo]

Solo jumping 26" always freaked me out, which is one of the reasons we didn't do much USDAA. I had planned to put him into Performance, but then retirement got in the way anyway. Weirdly enough, 26" seems worse for a taller, big-boned dog than it does for a smaller, lightly-built dog.

 

That's 'cause the ooomp UP for a dog isn't going to cause harm, its the OOOOMP landing that you have to worry about. AKA "all dogs can fly, its how they land that counts".

[AK dog doc]

I even had a student who WAS a vet, tell me she knew more than I did and that her dog was not fat, just big-boned. Big, jiggly bones, I guess.

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! That's hilarious. I must remember it for future use.

 

I hear it ALL the time - a normal weight dog brough in by a worried owner who has been accused of underfeeding their "skinny" dog. I don't think it's any exaggeration to agree that 99% of the time the dog is NOT too thin, but the dog owned by the person doing the accusing will almost certainly look like a 55 gallon drum with legs.

 

I would clarify only in saying you should EASILY be able to feel the ribs - not if you dig your fingers in an inch and then locate something that feels like ribs. I am totally fine with seeing the edge of the ribCAGE, and maybe an individual rib or two if the dog is turning, stretching or taking a deep breath. (Very very fit dogs sometimes, depending on build, may actually be even a little ribbier than that. Witness Iditarod dogs, for instance.)

 

I try to be excessivly diplomatic when talking to owners about weight... many of them are SERIOUSLY defensive about it. Sometimes it just goes over their heads no matter what I say. Maybe I'm being TOO diplomatic. However, one of my bosses, in a moment of inattention, went into a room one time and said "Wow, what a fat pig!" to an owner (about the dog, I mean.) To this day those people will not see that doctor. I'm kinda thinking maybe a little MORE diplomacy was called for there.

[Anda]

This is such a fun thread!

 

Let me be off the off-topic topic Just wondering, since you mentioned jumps of 26 inches. I am bad with estimating distances and hights. I had measured my dog with a ruler and marked it on the door, so I know he's 23 inches.

Does he look like he's clearing way more than 26 inches in this picture? This is how he rutinely and leasurely jumps over those rocks every time I take him to the dog run of our apt. I was wondering about doing some fun agility with him (if I ever find the time!)

 

 

P.S. Just came back from the vet today, who felt Ouzo and exclamed "Wow, you're a trim boy, quite fit, probably going 100 mph all the time". He was surprised to feel his body, but appreciative of his condition. Thank you, Dr. ! One of the first who didn't add "he's just a bit on the thin side" (he topped the scale at 44 lb today)

[sharkie]

yea i know...what's wrong with dogs being overweight? when i brought skye for a regular check up i asked whether she was a bit chunky. the vet tech told me that she's ok "maybe" a bit. it just happened that I saw the computer screen and found out the skye was on the upper limit of normal.

[sharkie]

somewhat along what lenajo mentioned...i used to work with this person who was VP for one of the airlines and he told me that flying is very safe.

 

in fact, flying never killed anyone, as long as you're in the air your safe

[Lenajo]

yea i know...what's wrong with dogs being overweight? when i brought skye for a regular check up i asked whether she was a bit chunky. the vet tech told me that she's ok "maybe" a bit. it just happened that I saw the computer screen and found out the skye was on the upper limit of normal.

 

extra weight is stress on heart, joints, muscles, more prone to injury and chronic illness such as arthritis. The more active the dog is, the greater the trauma created by excess weight.

 

I'm sure someone has a link to the study, but it's been shown that dogs kept on the "thin" side of fit live up to 30% longer than their overweight counterparts. That can mean as much as 2 years for medium breeds. That's enough for me to keep my dogs thin even if they weren't prone to that already.

 

Now if someone would just control my rations....

[Anda]

I am all for keeping Ouzo trim and fit. Luckily he's a natural, and I don't have to do anything special to ensure he does not put any extra weight.

 

Blackie, my beloved dog from my teenage-years and early 20s, she was very skinny until she got spayed. She balooned after that like something else. She developed a passion for food, and her metabolism slowed down immediatly. You could put a glass on her back and it wouldn't have dropped. She lived to be at least 15 1/2 years of age, with a very acute heart condition in her last year. For a dog picked up as an adult from the street, who had I don't know how many litters of puppies, and for being bit of a "fatty", she lasted pretty long time! We should have known to put her on a diet. We tried actualy, numerous times, but she would act like she was starving and beg from anyone that stopped by (and neighbours, who all loved her - a bit too much!)

 

P.S. I feel I need to put a disclamer: This post was to refer to the longevity of overweight dogs, not as any kind of reflection of the spaying procedure I actualy believe that the reason she lived so long was because she was spayed and did not have puppies anymore.

[Brandon M]

I have a 24 inch gate between my living room and dining room and Lance clears it with little effort at least 20 times a day. He also clears the 26 inch agility jump at our obedience class easily. He's 20" at the shoulder.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Brandon, I'm not sure Lance should be jumping that much at 10 months of age.

[Alaska]

I'm sure someone has a link to the study, but it's been shown that dogs kept on the "thin" side of fit live up to 30% longer than their overweight counterparts. That can mean as much as 2 years for medium breeds.

 

Purina Life Span Study

 

Other related research from Purina

[Brandon M]

Hi Brandon, I'm not sure Lance should be jumping that much at 10 months of age.

 

Yeah I know. But I'm not sure how to prevent it. He goes over it like it's not even there and I dont hear him or anything. Any suggestions on what I could try to teach him not to jump it?

[kelpiegirl]

I just noticed this weekend that Lucy has got some extra padding - I put some Evo in with their Canidae, as I was going to switch, but I think EVO is putting weight on every one a bit too easily. Nice to know it's an option, but I really don't want any of my dogs anything other than fit/lean- we will stick with Canidae

 

Julie

[Rosanne]

I use EVO as my weight-gain food :-)

 

My 20" tall boy (38lbs) jumps 26" really well. My 24" tall retriever also did it well despite being dysplastic in one hip. But she was VERY well built for a retriever and was *only* 62lbs! I also do a lot of educational jump training so my dogs are prepared for anything.

Actually my 17.75" girl who weighs 25 lbs jumps 26" very easily. I don't do it all the time and she competes at 22", but she certainly COULD do 26.

 

It is certainly harder on the bigger dogs. Imagine a linebacker doing the high jump. You can't, can you!?!

That's how the bigger ones must feel.

 

If my boy doesn't make the IFCS team this year I will be dropping him back down to 22" in the interests of his physical preservation. He's got healthy hips/eyes/shoulders/etc but I want him to last a while.

 

ETA: Ouzo looks like he'd have great fun in agility:-)

Also luckily my vet looooves when my dogs come in. He's always telling me "wow they must be so fast", and the vet techs always say "wow the heart rate is so loooow!"

Plus you save money on anaesthetic for spay/neuter cuz they weight less!

[Samantha J]

extra weight is stress on heart, joints, muscles, more prone to injury and chronic illness such as arthritis. The more active the dog is, the greater the trauma created by excess weight.

 

I'm sure someone has a link to the study, but it's been shown that dogs kept on the "thin" side of fit live up to 30% longer than their overweight counterparts. That can mean as much as 2 years for medium breeds. That's enough for me to keep my dogs thin even if they weren't prone to that already.

 

Now if someone would just control my rations....

 

 

I would add Diabetes to that list above. That's my reason for being careful about Holly because of my first dog. I will never know if being over weight caused it in Tammy my Yorkie but she was a little porky before she got Diabetes. Like Anda put it happened with her after the spay op. I know that someone else had a pup from the same breeder and they got it too so maybe it was hereditary. Need expert opinion on that as i am not sure. Boy do i feel guilty now though but i was a lot younger then and didn't think about that side of things. I have learned from her though - fat dog = unhealthy dog.

 

Holly has gained a couple pound since her spay, they did tell me to reduce her food and watch her. I have cut it down again a bit and she doesn't have many treats. She always eats her food now but before her op she sometimes left it. I hope she is ok now, you can feel her ribs easily. She is quite stocky though and not petite, she never was as a pup , her dad was a larger framed BC.

 

This has turned into a good topic

 

ETA - Sorry this answer is off topic really - i only added it as it is very close to my heart and i know Diabetes can unfortuanately like in us humans come from being overweight.

[PSmitty]

I use EVO as my weight-gain food :-)

 

I must have the only dog who *lost* weight on Evo! I hear everyone say their dogs gained with it. Huh.

[Northof49]

Yeah I know. But I'm not sure how to prevent it. He goes over it like it's not even there and I dont hear him or anything. Any suggestions on what I could try to teach him not to jump it?

 

Just out of curiousity, if Lance continually jumps this barrier, why do you have it up?

If it is supposed to be a barrier for him, it obviously isn't working.

[Rosanne]

Well my first BC couldn't eat EVO - it was too rich and she got bad diarrhea each time I tried to switch her. She did best on something simple with grains in it. I suppose she would have lost weight due to, um, water-weight loss. . .

 

I switched off EVO because I felt it had too much calcium in it, and I wanted a simpler formula. I do like having a lot of calories though so I found something else that had a lot per cup. (I have 2 dogs who won't just eat mounds of food to keep weight on so each cup counts).

[juliepoudrier]

Just went to a new vet today, who looked at my dogs and said they all looked very fit and athletic (even if Lark is a little on the tiny side all over). Now that vet's a keeper! Actually I think vets are getting better about acknowledging overweight in dogs, or maybe I just pick vets who are more attuned to that sort of thing. The vets I used to use in Yorktown always body conditioned scored dogs, though I can't say what they said to clients whose dogs were overweight or obese.

 

I can remeber one time at a trial when a spectator brought her fat border collie over. When I diplomatically mentioned that her dog could stand to lose a little weight, she told me her dog was perfect, and it was all muscle. Like someone else said, I've never seen athletes of the type these dogs are (I would compare them to marathoners and sprinters rolled up in one, certainly NOT sumo wrestlers!) with a layer of *anything* over their rib cages!

 

I have been accused of having my dogs too thin. Several years ago I was in a pet store with Jill and a woman commented to me that Jill was too thin. I just politely replied that Jill was an athlete and working dog and so was fit. I did acknowledge that she was a little thinner than most, but that she also has very bad CHD and so needed to be thin to prevent any additional strain on her joints (or lack thereof) and a worse case of arthritis then she was already likely to get. I don't think the woman got the message though....

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

I can remeber one time at a trial when a spectator brought her fat border collie over. When I diplomatically mentioned that her dog could stand to lose a little weight, she told me her dog was perfect, and it was all muscle.

 

There's a woman I've seen run a border collie in flyball ... the dog has CHD so bad that it jogs up to a jump, stops, hops over it, then shuffles up to the next jump ... repeat the whole way there and back. I couldn't believe her team would let her even run that dog! I mentioned that her dog looked like it was in pain and not really enjoying flyball, citing the dead stop before each jump.

 

Her response: "Oh no, he's a border collie! He's herding the jumps, that's why he stops before each one." She wasn't kidding either. All around her are border collies in prime condition flying over jumps without hesitation at 4 and 6 times the speed and she has managed to justify what she's doing with a complete non sequitur. It was heartbreaking.

 

Which really just goes to show that some people, no matter what you say, still won't get it. And I think its enabling not to say anything - if that poor crippled BC had been in my club, it wouldn't have been running, no question!

 

RDM

[PSmitty]

Yup, we had someone who was in our beginning flyball class get pissed off and quit after she was told her Aussie was overweight and had to drop some if she wanted to run the dog. An agility instructor told her the same thing, so she switched agility classes! No, her dog's not fat, everyone else is blind, I guess.

 

RDM-herding the jumps??? I have heard it all now!

[Rosanne]

Sounds like more than one person's dog has those mysterious ribcage covering jiggly muscles

[MaryP]

Her response: "Oh no, he's a border collie! He's herding the jumps, that's why he stops before each one."

 

That would be funny, if it wasn't so sad (for the dog).

 

I've been told by a herding instructor that my older dog needed to lose weight. I didn't take offense and neither did my dog. See, that's the beauty. Dogs are not offended by being called overweight or fat. It's only the owners who have a problem with it because we are so self-conscious ourselves about being called fat. There's a real stigma attached to the word "fat."

 

I also agree that many vets will not tell you your dog is overweight, if they are not grossly overweight. Most dogs that vets see are pet dogs, not sport dogs. Highly active or sports dogs should be leaner than the average pet dog. It's not good for a dog that is doing a lot of high impact activities to carry even a couple extra pounds. This same dog that the herding instructor said was fat was pronounced "at a good weight" by my vet. I had to disagree with him because I know my dog needs to lose weight, especially now that he has been diagnosed with HD. My dog's problem, though, is likely caused by a thyroid condition, for which he is now taking medication.

[airbear]

Sounds like more than one person's dog has those mysterious ribcage covering jiggly muscles

I am not making this up:

From this article in the local paper

 

And I thought Wick was the most muscular non-bully dog I'd ever seen!