Picture of Turbo

[PSmitty]

Hey, where's that thread about "what a healthy border collie looks like?". Maybe that would help. I really wasn't trying to insult Turbo or his owner, but some people honestly don't know that a dog should have a "waist" and that it's good to be able to lightly feel ribs. Lots of people think chubby=healthy, and it's just not true. Especially for an agility dog!

 

And, I had someone tell me that Lilly was too thin. I wasn't insulted, I had kind of been thinking that myself. So I upped her food a bit and she looks fine now. No feelings were hurt. I didn't think the person was implying I starve my dog.

 

Ok, I guess I'm going off topic, so I'll stop now.

[shelb'smum]

Even so, you'd want a more lean muscle if I am correct... once again back to you gymnastics look at things? ever see a bulky muscled gymnast? (sp)

[Eileen Stein]

I find it insulting to be told my BC came from a puppy mill

 

You were not told that, and it is disingenuous of you to claim that my post could be read that way -- that is a manufactured grievance if ever there was one. You seemed to think it was crucial information that your breeder had suggested you keep your dog intact and breed him. I said that this did not impress me, because I know puppy millers who give the same advice to their puppy buyers. That is a far cry from saying your dog's breeder (whose name I don't even know) runs a puppy mill. To me it would be more relevant to discuss the merits of whether your dog should be bred, rather than saying that the person who produced him told you he should be bred. In an excellent post early on, Borderlicious asked how you judged your dog's quality in deciding that he was "a beautiful example of the breed." You have never answered.

 

"Quote" I said, "farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock."

 

Please Check your earlier post ;

 

"Quote" As for "narrow minded and living in the past," don't you know that farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock? They created this breed, and they still need it, even in the 21st century.

 

Are you DETERMINED to try to evade my point with semantic quibbling? Here it is again:

 

So, yes the breed was created by farmers and shepherds over there, and continues to be maintained by them as well as by farmers and ranchers here. They can all claim credit for developing and preserving the abilities that characterize the border collie. The point is that the breed was made what it is by people who needed highly talented dogs to help manage their livestock, and who still do, regardless of what name one may use to describe those people.

 

Border Collie's are now better know for their work in Agility and other dog sports, that for their work as cattle dogs [i assume you meant "sheep and cattle dogs"? Maybe I should make a big point of that, and imply that you don't know border collies are sheepdogs? Sort of like you suggesting I don't know where border collies came from? Nah. That would be silly], like it or not.

 

Better known to you.

[Guest LJS1993]

Even so, you'd want a more lean muscle if I am correct... once again back to you gymnastics look at things? ever see a bulky muscled gymnast? (sp)

 

 

Yes, Bart Conner was ripped. Mitch Gaylord was very yoked. You go to an NCAA gymnastics meet and you will see some ripped guys. Also, look at runningbacks in football. Those guys are 5'9-6'2 and about 220-250 of muscle. But according to what is correct for "humans" they are grossly obese. And also, those little female gymnasts will surprise you in person. The old "Nadia" types have been replaced with some girls with some very square shoulders and stocky bodies.

[Turbo4go]

I think Turbo's owner could see the sarcasm in my response since the mob mentality is very popular on this forum. Furthermore I promised to remain serious from this point on.

 

Thanks, and yes I did. What I don't care for is all the insults, about me, my intelligence, my BC's weight, and my breeder. My original post was to show off my Border Collie, who just happens to be big and beautiful, and we love him. Now I regret I ever came onto this forum, because if I have learned anything here, it is that many people are outright mean and nasty, as well as very brave when hiding behind their computers. Would they be so brave if we were face to face, I doubt it.

[shelb'smum]

Most of them.... I wouldn't doubt it. I am this "mean and Nasty" when people anger me by calling me narrow minded and rude. and when I see them help destroy a breed because of there own selfish desires.

[Turbo4go]

"quote" - You seemed to think it was crucial information that your breeder had suggested you keep your dog intact and breed him. I said that this did not impress me, because I know puppy millers who give the same advice to their puppy buyers. that this did not impress me, because I know puppy millers who give the same advice to their puppy buyers.

 

That to me, and anyone else is an insinuation my dog came from a puppy mill. If you didn't mean it, then why even use the word "PUPPY Millers"

[shelb'smum]

No. you are not looking at it right. she is saying that she heres it all the time from puppy mill breeders.... NOT that your dog is from puppy mill. stop looking for a fight huh?

[MrSnappy]

My original post was to show off my Border Collie, who just happens to be big and beautiful, and we love him.

 

Hey - I love my border collies who are big and small and one of them's a total moron even - still love 'em. But no matter how much I love the moron, he's still a moron. And no matter how much I love all my dogs, they can't work a flock of sheep between them, which I think is really sad. Border collies should be perpetuated - and they are herding dogs, so the herding instinct should be perpetuated, or they become something else other than border collies. You don't really seem to get that concept, and I don't know if you can't grasp it or just don't want to.

 

Anyway, I rescue border collies. The last thing we need is another breeder of non-working dogs out there. Believe me. And the last thing Ontario, puppymill capital of Canada needs, is more breeders.

 

And on that note, I did not take Eileen's comment to mean what you seem to think everyone believes it to mean - I read it as "just because your breeder said "X" doesn't make it a good thing. Puppy millers also say "X" and puppy mills aren't good either." Meaning that your breeder's suggestion to leave him intact has no correlation to the advice itself being good. No more than if a drunk on the street suggested your dog should remain intact, in other words. It's just WORDS - not necessarily good advice.

 

Since you are in a community of people who feel that border collies should be bred for working ability, and since your border collie does not work and have never worked and never will worked, by your own admission ... it stands to reason that breeders and breed lovers here would wonder why your breeder would want you to keep intact a dog who does not and will not work. One therefore wonders about the quality of the dogs they produce or want to see produced - not working dogs, surely, if none of the breeding dogs work?

 

You say this is your first (one year old) border collie and you know 20 other border collies. I say, this does not an expert make - not on the breed, not on your breeder, not on the culture of the border collie and not on your dog, I'm afraid.

 

Not compared to the posers here, that is

 

 

RDM

[Shetlander]

Truth is Truth.

 

There are lots of ways to word the truth so that the person you are speaking to is more likely to hear what you say. If you want to actually persuade people to your way of thinking, alienating them isn't the best way to achieve a high success rate. Chasing someone off to go be with people who will agree with him and say (for instance), "yes, breed your dog," is not helping the war effort. Maybe the person would leave anyway, but why increase the chance of failure to convert someone to this Board's philosophy?

[Turbo4go]

Most of them.... I wouldn't doubt it. I am this "mean and Nasty" when people anger me by calling me narrow minded and rude. and when I see them help destroy a breed because of there own selfish desires.

 

That is good, because I can also be mean and nasty, (although normally very good natured) and it is me that is being called "Narrow Minded", not you, and for your information, I am not out to help destroy a breed, but maybe help preserve it. Now don't you think your comments are a little overboard. Get real, I own ONE (1) Border Collie, and I am "GOING TO HELP DESTROY A BREED". . That may have already been done long before me.

[Shetlander]

Interestingly, I have had several vets tell me that they can't/won't tell clients that their dogs are fat because their clients will get bent out of shape and leave the practice (what is it with people and their pets' weight? I am sure there is a study in there somewhere).

 

There might even be a book in it. The fact remains that it is a sensitive issue for many people and for the good of the dog is best approached with some sensitivity if you want the owner to change their way of thinking.

[Guest LJS1993]

I think telling the guy that he is out to "DESTROY A BREED" is getting a little bit on the dramatic side. Okay, he wants to breed for flyball, fine. Does that mean he has intentions of destroying a breed?

[shelb'smum]

Well look at it this way....

 

Every time a dog is bred for ANY other reason then what it was intended for, you are just condemning that many more to the shelters. do you really want to be responsible for that. and I know some people may think, well hey I'm just one person, and we're just having on litter.... Oh and how cute they will be!!! but a year or two later when these puppies from the good looking dog are growing out of their cute puppy stage.... where are they ending up? THE shelters. THERE are so many dogs and cats (+ other various animals) being PTS everyday because of people who listened to someone say. OH gosh your dog is so handsome/pretty you should breed it. and you know what I HATE them all. it is so sad to see how many dogs are homeless because of this. heartbreaking really. and that is why we care so much. because we love the breed and want nothing but the best. and NO not every BC is used for herding, but nonetheless I STILL believe that they should NOT be breed unless they are proven stock dogs.

[Guest LJS1993]

Well look at it this way....

 

Every time a dog is bred for ANY other reason then what it was intended for, you are just condemning that many more to the shelters. do you really want to be responsible for that. and I know some people may think, well hey I'm just one person, and we're just having on litter.... Oh and how cute they will be!!! but a year or two later when these puppies from the good looking dog are growing out of their cute puppy stage.... where are they ending up? THE shelters. THERE are so many dogs and cats (+ other various animals) being PTS everyday because of people who listened to someone say. OH gosh your dog is so handsome/pretty you should breed it. and you know what I HATE them all. it is so sad to see how many dogs are homeless because of this. heartbreaking really. and that is why we care so much. because we love the breed and want nothing but the best. and NO not every BC is used for herding, but nonetheless I STILL believe that they should NOT be breed unless they are proven stock dogs.

 

 

There must be a careful way of breeding non-working Border Collies? There must be some type of safe breeding for all enthusiasts.

[shelb'smum]

Look at GSD. first thing I think of is HD . ya know why? because people have bred them SO much for vanity traits, that the gene pool is getting crappier and crappier. SO I do believe that the breeders who are breeding for any other reason then the original intended purpose are destroying the breed... maybe not right away, but in the long run.

[shelb'smum]

a stock bred dog can be great for agility. we've had this disscussion before on the boards. and granted my dog does NO agility, no Stock work, OR flyball...

 

BORDERJACK......

 

a borderjack is a agility/flyball bred dog.... (evil, pure evil..... ) cute but evil....

[Guest LJS1993]

a stock bred dog can be great for agility. we've had this disscussion before on the boards. and granted my dog does NO agility, no Stock work, OR flyball...

 

BORDERJACK......

 

a borderjack is a agility/flyball bred dog.... (evil, pure evil..... ) cute but evil....

 

So the Borderjack is a hybrid, sport specific Border Collie. Has this dog been a good dog for you? They serve a purpose do they not?

[Eileen Stein]

That to me, and anyone else is an insinuation my dog came from a puppy mill.

 

No. It's not. I have no idea who your breeder is. I don't know if I'd even recognize his name. I don't know if he breeds a litter every three years or 30 litters a year. Why would I say he runs a puppy mill? You are seeing insults where no insults are intended. And not just in this one instance.

 

if I have learned anything here, it is that many people are outright mean and nasty, as well as very brave when hiding behind their computers. Would they be so brave if we were face to face, I doubt it.

 

What an odd thing to say. Of course I would express the same opinions about breeding non-working border collies in person. Why -- would you punch me in the nose? Is that why I supposedly have to "hide behind my computer" instead of using it to communicate, as I thought I was doing?

 

I'm not trying to be mean or nasty. You're the one who meant to be offensive, not me. I'm trying to share with you some knowledge about the border collie breed that I have acquired over time. You may reject it because you're not open to seeing anything beyond your own experience, which -- I mean no insult in saying, and if you weren't being defensive I'm sure you would agree -- is limited. But that doesn't make it mean and nasty of me to offer it. I hope when you've had a chance to think things over, you will realize that no one here meant to insult you in any way.

[shelb'smum]

ummm.... they are a hybrid? I would call them a mutt..

[Guest LJS1993]

ummm.... they are a hybrid? I would call them a mutt..

 

 

Well I can't use mutt anymore, my fiance takes offense to that. See, she is a mixed breed herself. With that said let's just say "hybrid".

[Eileen Stein]

I think telling the guy that he is out to "DESTROY A BREED" is getting a little bit on the dramatic side. Okay, he wants to breed for flyball, fine. Does that mean he has intentions of destroying a breed?

 

Shelb'smum did not say he intended to destroy a breed. Indeed, I doubt anyone ever intends to destroy a breed. She said, "help destroy a breed." The more people breed without regard to working ability, the more progress is made toward destroying the breed. No one does it single-handedly -- they just make their contribution.

 

There must be a careful way of breeding non-working Border Collies? There must be some type of safe breeding for all enthusiasts.

 

Is that a question or a statement?

[MrSnappy]

There might even be a book in it. The fact remains that it is a sensitive issue for many people and for the good of the dog is best approached with some sensitivity if you want the owner to change their way of thinking.

 

I am going to leave this thread alone after this, but think on this for a minute fella - what you just said, in so many words, is that you'd be more than willing to listen to what people have to say if they said it nicely. Which I think is just the most hilarious way of justifying your obvious unwillingness to listen to anything at all! Because people said things to you very nicely and you refuted them, ignored them, belittled them, twisted their words and accused them of insulting you - even when they weren't! ... You even went so far as to call the entire community backwards and out of touch with reality.

 

So what you're really saying is that you don't want to hear anything at all if it's different from what you already think or what you want to hear. Because it's been said to you in several different ways and each time you have reacted with a volatile temper tantrum; each time you've ignored legitimate questions and suggestions and focused on what you perceive to be insults, even if they weren't. You seem to get a lot more out of being defensive and spitting mad than you do from well worded thoughtful posts. I've still not seen you respond to any of Eileen's questions or comments other than to repeatedly accuse her of calling your breeder a puppymill.

 

So I disagree with Shetlander. I suggest that no matter how something is told to you, you hunt through it looking for the possibility of an insult, much like how I pick peas out of rice in Indian food. In fact, your very negative response was in response to Alaska's thoughtful post, which IN PART read:

 

Oh man, I just saw this. Dennis, why don't you simplify your life and edit that sentence out of your last post? The subject of which border collies should be bred is about the most inflammatory topic on this board. You won't have to search very long to see all kinds of strong feelings on that subject. Read for a while and consider whether you really want to have that discussion right now. Go ahead and keep Turbo intact if you want. Just think twice, for now at least, before saying the rest of what you wrote above.

 

and all you appeared to have read was one sentence, because your response was I haven't been on this board for very long, so maybe there are some things I don't know about. You should at least explain what the problem is, and not just tell me to edit my post. That would be helpfull.

 

Alaska was being quite helpful - you simply chose not to see it. And LJS1993 probably did not help, since his comment definitely kick started your temper.

 

So when the conversation turned to reasons why an unproven, non working, extra large dog may not be the best candidate for breeding, you got irate. You didn't hear anything when it was said nicely, you didn't hear it when it was said bluntly, you didn't hear it when it was said rudely. All you heard wuz fightin' words - because that's what you want to hear.

 

I suggest you got as good as you gave, and then some.

 

RDM

[smileyzookie]

I think telling the guy that he is out to "DESTROY A BREED" is getting a little bit on the dramatic side. Okay, he wants to breed for flyball, fine. Does that mean he has intentions of destroying a breed?

 

 

Are you looking for a fight? It regularly seems as if you're trying to spur on more negativity from new OP's whom we discuss breeding, weight or whatever. (OP's...as in not just this post). It seems like you enjoy disagreeing with the board and trying to entice arguements so you can disagree more.

 

I think telling the guy that he is out to "DESTROY A BREED" is getting a little bit on the dramatic side. Okay, he wants to breed for flyball, fine. Does that mean he has intentions of destroying a breed?

No one said he/she had intentions... but breeding for something other than working ability does change the breed...hence destroy it.

Those individuals who go to good breeders, get a puppy from great working stock parents, then fail to use said puppy for anything other than working sheep is contributing to the eventual demise of this breed.

 

For the bajillionth time, the board has NO issues with someone USING a BC for something other than stockwork. The issue is *breeding* In fact, the "Read this First" says this...

The best place to get a border collie for livestock work is from a reputable breeder of working dogs--not someone who merely breeds "from working lines," but someone who trains and uses his/her dogs on stock, and is breeding to produce the utmost in herding ability. The best place to get a border collie for companionship or for dog sports is from the same kind of breeder, or (preferably, in most cases) from border collie rescue.

By the way, hybrid is a nice way of saying mutt. My husband is a mutt as am I....as are most of us... Im sure not everyone of us has only one single race bloodline. "Hybrid" makes mixing dog breeds seem exotic. Breeding mutts is NOT exotic and it is *FAR* different from HUMAN races mixing. Mixing human races does not deplete humans from what humans are. It does however deplete dog breeds, and put tons of unwanted dogs in shelters every year.

[Little Bo Boop]

I hesitate to post anything on this topic, as i've been on the 'wrong side' (for this board anyway) before and it accomplished nothing. But put me down as one who thinks that Border Collies should be primarily bred for working ablitly. That being said I didn't think then, and I don't think now, that shoving that notion down peoples throat is the way to go. In particular people new to this board. Some times I read posts on here and it takes on almost a 'cult like atmosphere'. And let me say once again it is my opinion that Border Collies SHOULD BE BRED FOR WORKING ABILITY. My dogs are all working bred, I train and trial my dogs, and yes in 'real' trials To me the bigger issue here is the arbitrary breeding, and I point the finger at people breeding dogs for stock work as well. I think you all know people who are breeding dogs that they have no business breeding Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. This problem is rampant in the horse world as well So IMHO, instead of jumping on the 'don't breed unless your dog is a proven stock dog' How about Don't Breed! just because you can! How about taking the breeding of two dogs seriously, and not give it any more thought than you would eating a hamburger For me that's the bigger picture, and what really ought to be addressed here.