Picture of Turbo

[Eileen Stein]

Quite frankly, I don't understand the problem with keeping Turbo intact, as it was recommended by the breeder, NOT by me. I guess there are some things I still don't understand about the BC community.

 

That's not really surprising, is it? As I understand it, you've had one border collie, and he is only a year old. There's a lot to learn about these dogs and the culture that produced them, believe me.

 

I got a BC because they are intelligent, hard working, and energetic.

 

How do you think they got that way? Because they were bred to do work that is very demanding, both mentally and physically. Far more demanding than agility or any other dog sport you could name. It is that work which shaped the breed and made it what it is. And if they don't continue to be bred for that work, they will deteriorate. Turbo may be a fine dog, but if he's bred without judging him on the same standards his ancestors were judged on, then his offspring can be expected to be of lower quality, and their offspring lesser still. Those are the inexorable laws of genetics. You're running on fumes now, and you can only run on fumes for so long. You can continue to call those descendants border collies, but they won't be border collies in any real sense, because they won't be bred to the working standard that created and defined the border collie breed.

 

Prior to Turbo, I owned Springer Spaniels, but it is very difficult to get a Springer with a whole undocked tail, due to almost the same narrow way of thinking. For Springers it is called Breed Standard . In todays world, it is called Animal Crulity and the practice is being banned in many countries, but unfortunately not in North America

 

I find the comparison of breeding for stock work to cutting off dogs' tails pretty offensive. There is nothing cruel about breeding border collies for their ability to do the work they love above all else.

 

I shudder to think owners and breeders of BC,s are also so narrow minded and living in the past. If this means getting "BLACKBALLED" here, then so be it. I'd rather associate with people that are living in the 21st centuty, and not the 19th century.

 

It's unfortunate that someone used the silly term "blackballed." No one has ever been excluded from these boards for saying that they intended to breed their dog because he's "a beautiful example of the breed." (Although it's an odd thing to say. He may be a nice looking DOG, but he doesn't exemplify either the Kennel Clubs' appearance standard for the breed or the traditional working standard.) As for "narrow minded and living in the past," don't you know that farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock? They created this breed, and they still need it, even in the 21st century. It seems a little ungrateful to enjoy the benefits of the breed they developed while insulting them for wanting to keep it the useful breed they made and need.

[Turbo4go]

That's not really surprising, is it? As I understand it, you've had one border collie, and he is only a year old. There's a lot to learn about these dogs and the culture that produced them, believe me.

How do you think they got that way? Because they were bred to do work that is very demanding, both mentally and physically. Far more demanding than agility or any other dog sport you could name. It is that work which shaped the breed and made it what it is. And if they don't continue to be bred for that work, they will deteriorate. Turbo may be a fine dog, but if he's bred without judging him on the same standards his ancestors were judged on, then his offspring can be expected to be of lower quality, and their offspring lesser still. Those are the inexorable laws of genetics. You're running on fumes now, and you can only run on fumes for so long. You can continue to call those descendants border collies, but they won't be border collies in any real sense, because they won't be bred to the working standard that created and defined the border collie breed.

I find the comparison of breeding for stock work to cutting off dogs' tails pretty offensive. There is nothing cruel about breeding border collies for their ability to do the work they love above all else.

It's unfortunate that someone used the silly term "blackballed." No one has ever been excluded from these boards for saying that they intended to breed their dog because he's "a beautiful example of the breed." (Although it's an odd thing to say. He may be a nice looking DOG, but he doesn't exemplify either the Kennel Clubs' appearance standard for the breed or the traditional working standard.) As for "narrow minded and living in the past," don't you know that farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock? They created this breed, and they still need it, even in the 21st century. It seems a little ungrateful to enjoy the benefits of the breed they developed while insulting them for wanting to keep it the useful breed they made and need.

 

Eileen, you failed to "quote me" that keeping Turbo intact was at the breeders suggestion, NOT mine. If you are going to use my quotes, please use them all. It is very easy for someone to selectively pick apart ones post, and effectively change the whole concept of that post. Also, yes the comparison of Border Collie breeding practices and docking of Springer Spaniel tails was offensive, as it was ment to be. Believe it or not, there is a strong similarity here amoung owners of both breeds. Springers were also purpose breed dogs, also from Great Britain and around the same period of time. Springers were bred for hunting game birds, meaning they were also working dogs, highly energetic, and also very intelligent. When working back then (hunting), many Springers suffered tail injuries, as a Springer has a tail much like a BC, and they got caught in brush. The solution was to cut off the tail so there would be nothing to injure, which was fine way back in the early 1800's. What is offensive now is 200 years later, the tails are still being docked on all Springers, regardless of what the purpose of the dog is. Now, what is the percentage of Border Collies being used for working sheep and cattle compared to those doing dog sports ? From what I have seen, I would say the vast majority of BC's are doing dog sports, and not what they were originally breed for. There may be quite a few still on working ranches, but even those will soon be replaced by technology, namely ATV's, and someday the BC will be out of work like the horse, and that unfortunately is called progress. The genetics of a BC will also probably change over time, as they probably already have in the past 150 years, but I have faith that the instict of working and the intelligence of the breed will carry on for a long time to come, unless they are subject to cross breeding, which is not the intention of any responsible breeder.

I am not ungratefull for owning a dog that is highly intelligent, and all the other aspects of the breed, but I selected the breed for its ability in agility, not herding sheep. Also, the Border Collie was not created by farmers and ranchers, but rather by sheep herders of Scotland and Northern England, so please don't give credit to where it doesn't belong. Even Turbo's ancestry goes back to Scotland, and that is only 4 generations back, not very long.

Turbo will continue to have a loving forever home with me, and hopefully go on to be an agility champion like his father and mother, as that is my goal for him, and I doubt he'll ever see a sheep except on TV.

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, you failed to "quote me" that keeping Turbo intact was at the breeders suggestion, NOT mine. If you are going to use my quotes, please use them all. It is very easy for someone to selectively pick apart ones post, and effectively change the whole concept of that post.

 

You are mistaken. If you look back you will see that this is the material I quoted:

 

Quite frankly, I don't understand the problem with keeping Turbo intact, as it was recommended by the breeder, NOT by me. I guess there are some things I still don't understand about the BC community.

 

I don't think it's as significant as you apparently do -- I'm familiar with notorious puppy millers who recommend that their puppy buyers keep their dogs intact and breed them, so the fact that a breeder might suggest it does not impress me -- but I did quote it.

 

Also, yes the comparison of Border Collie breeding practices and docking of Springer Spaniel tails was offensive, as it was ment to be.

 

Oh, well that's all right then -- you achieved your purpose. Unfortunately, I don't see the point of the analogy at all, other than giving offense. Docking is something you may choose to do or not do to your individual dog, in accordance with your circumstances and ethical views. It does not affect the gene pool of the breed, or the essence of what makes it a breed. There is just no comparison between the two.

 

Now, what is the percentage of Border Collies being used for working sheep and cattle compared to those doing dog sports ? From what I have seen, I would say the vast majority of BC's are doing dog sports, and not what they were originally breed for.

 

I don't know the percentages and neither do you. If I remember correctly, you said you had met 20+ people who had border collies and none of them worked. That really isn't an adequate sample to draw a conclusion, is it?

 

There may be quite a few still on working ranches, but even those will soon be replaced by technology, namely ATV's, and someday the BC will be out of work like the horse

 

You are simply mistaken about that. "All terrain" in ATV is hyperbole. There was a recent thread showing dogs being used by people who had not only horses and ATVs at their disposal, but airplanes as well, yet still needed dogs. The terrain shown in those photos was nothing in ruggedness compared to some terrain where I have seen sheep kept, both here and in the UK. ATVs also lack the flexibility of dogs -- in covering breaking sheep, for example -- and there are some jobs for which they are useless, such as sorting and pushing sheep through chutes. I am genuinely curious on what basis you think you know that working stockdogs will soon be replaced by ATVs.

 

I have faith that the instict of working and the intelligence of the breed will carry on for a long time to come, unless they are subject to cross breeding, which is not the intention of any responsible breeder.

 

Again, I wonder on what knowledge and experience this faith is based. It has not been true of other formerly herding breeds which have been taken into kennel clubs and bred over time for their looks and charm without regard to working ability, and it is contradicted by established principles of genetics.

 

Unlike you, I am NOT trying to be offensive. I just wish it were possible for people who have no conception what is required of a good stock dog to just realize that they have no conception what is required of a good stock dog. No reason why they should. No shame in it. Why would they? There are lots of things I know very little about -- LOTS of them. But I seldom find myself trying to tell people who do know something about those things what's what.

 

Also, the Border Collie was not created by farmers and ranchers, but rather by sheep herders of Scotland and Northern England, so please don't give credit to where it doesn't belong. Even Turbo's ancestry goes back to Scotland, and that is only 4 generations back, not very long.

 

I said, "farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock." Yes, the breed originated in the UK, as everyone surely knows. Over there, the term "farmer" is generally used for someone who cares for his own sheep on his own land, and the term "shepherd" is used for an employee who is hired to care for someone else's sheep. So, yes the breed was created by farmers and shepherds over there, and continues to be maintained by them as well as by farmers and ranchers here. They can all claim credit for developing and preserving the abilities that characterize the border collie. The point is that the breed was made what it is by people who needed highly talented dogs to help manage their livestock, and who still do, regardless of what name one may use to describe those people.

 

I am not ungratefull for owning a dog that is highly intelligent, and all the other aspects of the breed, but I selected the breed for its ability in agility, not herding sheep. . . . Turbo will continue to have a loving forever home with me, and hopefully go on to be an agility champion like his father and mother, as that is my goal for him, and I doubt he'll ever see a sheep except on TV.

 

Fine. That's great. Use your dog for agility, and have a good time with him, whether he turns out to be a champion or not. Just don't compromise the integrity of the breed by breeding him. Or if you're not ready to make that decision yet, at least open your mind to the possibility that we may have reasons for urging this other than being "narrow minded and living in the past."

[Jack & Co.]

Great posts, Eileen. Thanks.

[SoloRiver]

I've always thought that sports were even more dangerous for the breed than the breed ring.

 

Here's some evidence supporting that fear.

 

This is a breed that was created and refined through selection for working ability. By that I mean real working ability, not dog sports. I have done dog sports and really, really enjoyed them (my agility dog is now retired) but I can't even begin to pretend that breeding for "agility ability" is anything like breeding for real work. Breeding for work is a much more stringent test and produces highly superior dogs -- and those dogs are out there, still, not a relic population as in other breeds, but the vital heart of this breed. Breeding for sports produces "lowest common denominator" dogs that mimic some of the qualities of real working dogs, but ultimately lack what makes a Border Collie a real Border Collie.

 

As I've said before, if people would just call the sport-bred dogs something else, like Sport Collies I'd be perfectly fine with it. The truth is you can't breed for something different and still have the same thing. In many breeds you have no choice; luckily in this one, I can still make the choice. I have Border Collies because I want certain things about their behavior and aptitudes to be predictable and those are things that are only predictable if they are real Border Collies, from a heritage of selection for real work. I don't have sheep; I work my dogs, but I am a weekend warrior and lately I've had no time even for that, and still it is important to me to have these dogs because they are qualitatively different and not interchangeable with dogs bred for other things.

 

If there ever is a future in which dogs are never used anymore for their job, which is working stock, then Border Collies as I know and love them will cease to exist. Even if there is some kind of black and white dog out there with the same name, it will not be the Border Collie, but a sad facsimile thereof. I cannot understand why anyone would want to hasten the arrival of this sad day, or settle for less when he could have more. But hey, there are a lot of things about people I don't understand.

[Guest LJS1993]

I've always thought that sports were even more dangerous for the breed than the breed ring.

 

Here's some evidence supporting that fear.

 

This is a breed that was created and refined through selection for working ability. By that I mean real working ability, not dog sports. I have done dog sports and really, really enjoyed them (my agility dog is now retired) but I can't even begin to pretend that breeding for "agility ability" is anything like breeding for real work. Breeding for work is a much more stringent test and produces highly superior dogs -- and those dogs are out there, still, not a relic population as in other breeds, but the vital heart of this breed. Breeding for sports produces "lowest common denominator" dogs that mimic some of the qualities of real working dogs, but ultimately lack what makes a Border Collie a real Border Collie.

 

As I've said before, if people would just call the sport-bred dogs something else, like Sport Collies I'd be perfectly fine with it. The truth is you can't breed for something different and still have the same thing. In many breeds you have no choice; luckily in this one, I can still make the choice. I have Border Collies because I want certain things about their behavior and aptitudes to be predictable and those are things that are only predictable if they are real Border Collies, from a heritage of selection for real work. I don't have sheep; I work my dogs, but I am a weekend warrior and lately I've had no time even for that, and still it is important to me to have these dogs because they are qualitatively different and not interchangeable with dogs bred for other things.

 

If there ever is a future in which dogs are never used anymore for their job, which is working stock, then Border Collies as I know and love them will cease to exist. Even if there is some kind of black and white dog out there with the same name, it will not be the Border Collie, but a sad facsimile thereof. I cannot understand why anyone would want to hasten the arrival of this sad day, or settle for less when he could have more. But hey, there are a lot of things about people I don't understand.

 

 

I by no means am trying to go against the tide of this forum. However here is my question. So with all of the above logic in place, we are in essence the very cause of the eventual dilution of the characteristics of this breed. Those individuals who go to good breeders, get a puppy from great working stock parents, then fail to use said puppy for anything other than working sheep is contributing to the eventual demise of this breed. Therefore as the popularity of this breed increases, and the herding of sheep via Border Collie decreases, this breed will eventually come to a close as a Border Collie. So all of us who haven't bought sheep should feel shame because we have failed to keep the essence of Border Collie intact. Very interesting indeed.

[Northof49]

How do you think they got that way? Because they were bred to do work that is very demanding, both mentally and physically. Far more demanding than agility or any other dog sport you could name

 

Hey, I take exception to that statement Do you have any idea how mentally demanding it is for a Border Collie to try and figure out what they are supposed to be doing when your stupid owner puts a name to a piece of equipment and you have never heard that word before? You try executing the tire obstacle when your owner has called it "leap" for 8 years and suddenly decides to call it something else

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

No, Border Collies have always gone to places where they weren't worked on stock. It doesn't dilute the breed, it merely ensures that those who breed for the right reasons have plenty of homes for puppies. Then the variety that is the backbone of this breed will be also ensured. If the breeding community is fragmented, and those who breed for work are marginalized, then the gene pool will be eventually too narrow to produce sound dogs that have the same abilities of today's breed.

 

It only becomes a problem when those who have puppies think that it doesn't make a difference to produce puppies themselves, from parents that don't work livestock. However they may justify it to themselves, they are not much better than the back yard breeders who produce yorkies who have never had a breed expert assess their coat for correctness, or Chinese cresteds from parents without regard to genetic standards.

 

The variety of the breed is both a blessing and a curse. It provides a broad healthy gene pool to work from when breeding to such an exacting performance standard. And it makes for a breed that is useful in a huge spectrum of working situations. But, without the work that balances all the extremes that make up this breed, and without evaluating the ability to work in every generation, those extremes pop out in the most unexpected ways.

 

And by the way, I'd be willing to bet that the number of people using dogs is actually growing again, with the rise of homesteading, grass based farming, niche farming, and exotic livestock. Certainly my neighbor is a good example - he's gone to a rotational grazing system and has a new dog now to help his old rough and tumble farm dog with the new duties of moving hundreds of cow/calf pairs around every single day.

[PSmitty]

Turbo's a nice looking dog, but I'd take some weight off of him if you plan on doing much agility. JMO.

[SoloRiver]

Thanks, Becca.

 

I agree about taking some weight off Turbo -- my male is 23" at the shoulder and has a rather robust build with a lot of bone. Like Turbo, at every agility trial we went to he was one of the biggest Border Collies there. He's currently out of condition at 47 pounds, but his normal muscled weight is only between three and five pounds more. If he gained 18 pounds, he'd be quite fat.

[MrSnappy]

And by the way, I'd be willing to bet that the number of people using dogs is actually growing again, with the rise of homesteading, grass based farming, niche farming, and exotic livestock. Certainly my neighbor is a good example - he's gone to a rotational grazing system and has a new dog now to help his old rough and tumble farm dog with the new duties of moving hundreds of cow/calf pairs around every single day.

 

As is the "sport" of sheepherding, whereby people who have no intention of farming with their dogs buy working dogs and train them to trial / buy trained dogs to trial. I'm not making a negative judgment on that activity. I am simply using it to illustrate that working dogs are certainly NOT decreasing in popularity as has been suggested!

 

To put the same old subject a different way - dogs sports are not intrinsic. You can't breed agility or flyball into a dog. You can get just about any dog into agility or flyball though, as some of our adopted dogs can demonstrate. I have never seen the point in breeding sport dogs since almost any dog can do sports.

 

Even if the OP doesn't subscribe to the culture embraced by our board, he (she?) might at least think about the fact that thousands of border collies don't make it out of shelters every year. Another valid reason to neuter.

 

And lastly, I agree with Paula and Melanie that Turbo is too fat.

 

RDM

[Shetlander]

Just a thought... while trying to educate/explain/dialogue, calling someone's beloved pet fat isn't the best tactic if you want them to hear the very important points being made.

[Guest LJS1993]

Just a thought... while trying to educate/explain/dialogue, calling someone's beloved pet fat isn't the best tactic if you want them to hear the very important points being made.

 

 

I agree. I have noticed that while trying to "educate" this poster many people have insulted him in the process. Again, I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with him, however calling someone's dog "fat" and posting a photo shopped pic of an animal in levity is not the way to "educate" a grown adult. Let's please keep this civil.

[PSmitty]

Well, I'm sorry, but it needed to be said. Since the OP specifically mentioned wanting to do agility, he needs to know that Turbo should drop some weight first. If he brought Turbo to my training club, any instructor there would tell him the same thing. It's in the dog's best interest.

 

As my friend from Trindad says, Truth is Truth.

[Guest LJS1993]

Well, I'm sorry, but it needed to be said. Since the OP specifically mentioned wanting to do agility, he needs to know that Turbo should drop some weight first. If he brought Turbo to my training club, any instructor there would tell him the same thing. It's in the dog's best interest.

 

As my friend from Trindad says, Truth is Truth.

 

 

Sometimes diplomacy is the best way to get action. Many times the best way to educate someone is to first relate to their perspective then to slowly work your perspective into their philosophy. Also sometimes you can't judge a book by it's cover. There are plenty of "fat" athletes who might tear a "skinny and in shape" athlete a new one. I would think it's the same in the dog world also. Muscle to weight ratio, not weight in and of itself.

[Jack & Co.]

Oh great, Dennis is going to get blackballed now!!!!!!!!!

LJS1993, it don't think it was helpful to gleefully predict that Dennis was going to be "blackballed" either.

[MrSnappy]

Just a thought... while trying to educate/explain/dialogue, calling someone's beloved pet fat isn't the best tactic if you want them to hear the very important points being made.

 

Well, I could argue that the OP is not listening to the important points being made regardless.

 

However, what I actually want to say is: to each their own. One of my dogs got too heavy and I was quite pleased when someone pointed out to me, bluntly, that my dog was fat, because I took him to the vet and weighed him, recognized that he was, in fact, fat - checked his thyroid (it was fine, he was just fat) and then took 10 lbs off him. Now he's thin and in good shape and competing in agility regularly.

 

I guess because the health and longevity of my dog (even Tweed!!) is more important to me and/or is not wrapped up in my own concept of self esteem, I welcome it if someone points out something that could improve his well being ... like the fact that he was fat. Which he was. I fed him too much.

 

*shrug*

 

RDM

[shelb'smum]

Why is it that people get so Deffesive when somebody tries to tell them what they truely believe in there hearts is true? I believe that I am right when I say, if you are breeding against what the breed was first intended for, you are doing the breed a disservice. am I wrong? I believe not.

 

 

and on the fat note. it may of not been the best way to word it.. BUT for health reasons (i.e. joints and whatnot) it would be best for Turbo to shed a few pounds before doing tons of running and jumping. unless you want to ruin his joints and make his elderly life a pain. its just plain fact. Not saying that he is OVER weight, just a little on the big side for agility. I mean... how often do you see a big boned gymnastics gal/guy? not really often. if ever, because, 1. they are not agile enough and 2. it would be wretched on the joints... owww..

[Turbo4go]

Arguing this point any furthur is useless, as some people persist in living in the past, and just cannot accept reality. I find it insulting to be told my BC came from a puppy mill

"Quote" - I don't think it's as significant as you apparently do -- I'm familiar with notorious puppy millers who recommend that their puppy buyers keep their dogs intact and breed them, so the fact that a breeder might suggest it does not impress me -- but I did quote it.

 

For your information, Turbo came from a reputable Border Collie breeder, who just happens to breed dogs that excell in agility, and all are ABCA registered. He is also very selective about who adopts one of his pups.

Eileen also stated;

 

"Quote" I said, "farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock."

 

Please Check your earlier post ;

 

"Quote" As for "narrow minded and living in the past," don't you know that farmers and ranchers still need good dogs to manage their livestock? They created this breed, and they still need it, even in the 21st century.

 

Also, for those concerned about Turbo's weight,

Quote" - "And lastly, I agree with Paula and Melanie that Turbo is too fat."

 

His vet says for his size, he is the pefect weight, and I value his opinion much more than yours. I would much rather have a healthy dog that an malnourished, skinny, under-weight dog any day.

 

You see, I could trade insults with everyone here that would like to take their best shot at me, but quite frankly its not worth it to me. Border Collie's are now better know for their work in Agility and other dog sports, that for their work as cattle dogs, like it or not. That my friends is reality, and it is time many of you faced up to that reality.

[shelb'smum]

Also, for those concerned about Turbo's weight,

Quote" - "And lastly, I agree with Paula and Melanie that Turbo is too fat."

 

His vet says for his size, he is the pefect weight, and I value his opinion much more than yours. I would much rather have a healthy dog that an malnourished, skinny, under-weight dog any day.

 

well you are being very narrow minded to think that you are the only one correct here.

 

and even THOUGH your vet sas he's the perfect weight, did it sink into your brain that maybe that might be a perfect weight for a dog that isn't putting as much pressure on his joints as an agility dog? or are you too narrow minded to think that far?

[Guest LJS1993]

LJS1993, it don't think it was helpful to gleefully predict that Dennis was going to be "blackballed" either.

 

 

I think Turbo's owner could see the sarcasm in my response since the mob mentality is very popular on this forum. Furthermore I promised to remain serious from this point on.

[PSmitty]

Also, for those concerned about Turbo's weight,

Quote" - "And lastly, I agree with Paula and Melanie that Turbo is too fat."

 

His vet says for his size, he is the pefect weight, and I value his opinion much more than yours. I would much rather have a healthy dog that an malnourished, skinny, under-weight dog any day.

 

You see, I could trade insults with everyone here that would like to take their best shot at me, but quite frankly its not worth it to me. Border Collie's are now better know for their work in Agility and other dog sports, that for their work as cattle dogs, like it or not. That my friends is reality, and it is time many of you faced up to that reality.

 

Whatever you gotta tell yourself.

[Turbo4go]

well you are being very narrow minded to think that you are the only one correct here.

 

and even THOUGH your vet sas he's the perfect weight, did it sink into your brain that maybe that might be a perfect weight for a dog that isn't putting as much pressure on his joints as an agility dog? or are you too narrow minded to think that far?

 

Me narrow minded ? Could it be you are opinionated and insulting about something you know nothing about. How muscular is Turbo ? You don't know. His vet does. Not all weight is made up of FAT, some dogs have real good muscel mass.

[MrSnappy]

Arguing this point any furthur is useless, as some people persist in living in the past, and just cannot accept reality. I find i

His vet says for his size, he is the pefect weight, and I value his opinion much more than yours. I would much rather have a healthy dog that an malnourished, skinny, under-weight dog any day.

 

Interestingly, I have had several vets tell me that they can't/won't tell clients that their dogs are fat because their clients will get bent out of shape and leave the practice (what is it with people and their pets' weight? I am sure there is a study in there somewhere). And some of my vets have their own dogs, who are fat. I don't always trust the vet on weight issues, there are so many reasons why they don't/can't/won't say anything to a client.

 

Just an observation. Now, back to your regularly scheduled argument!

 

RDM (owner of the EXTREMELY fat Toilet Kitty!)

[Guest LJS1993]

True anyone who has lifted weights or was an athlete knows that muscle weighs more than fat. Could be this dog is yoked where it counts? Cannot judge a dog or person unless you see them in person.