It's Prey Drive! (Rant)

[borderlicious]

Denise, that's a good thought. I was just recalling the way people at AKC shows referred to their dogs, and I never heard them call their dogs Border Collies. It was always Borders.

 

I'm still trying to kick the habit of using the "lingo" I picked up over the years of involvement with the AKC conformation folks.

[kelpiegirl]

Why call them Borders? I have heard that lingo at agility trials, but I never really thought of it as significant. One thing I do remember, was one time at a demo, I was talking about the BC, and I spoke about it's origins etc. Apparently, I left out the rather OBVIOUS part about the dog being from the border towns between scotland and england (this was a scottish person who told me).

 

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I overheard Don McCaig saying to someone at a trial that it was a subtle way of obscuring the function of the breed. "Collie" refers to, depending on what story to which you ascribe, either a term for "useful" or the black-faced sheep they worked.

 

Of course, the only thing is that there's already a "Border" - the Border Terrier - which has been called that for generations.

 

The Borders, by the way, are an accepted term for the Border area between Scotland and England. My family is originally from the area (actually, most immigrant Scots are, who aren't actually Highlanders, since it's a rich farming area).

[Genie]

Originally posted by borderlicious:

I do think that many people claim Border Collies are herding because of their body language. Some BCs crouch and stare at a ball the same way they crouch and stare at a sheep, therefore people think they're trying to "herd" the ball. In reality I think it's just part of the Border Collie's mannerisms.

This is the part I've been struggling to put into words and you did a better job of it than I could.

Border Collie Mannerisms - I like that and it describes it well. Such a better term to use than the incorrect "Herding" that is so overused.

[Firchow]

It is dog behavior.

[SoloRiver]

Fly attempts to work Solo while he plays ball. She is not chasing him. She does "outruns" on him and "fetches" him back. She will also take flank commands and walk up on him. The difference, of course, is that he does not respond to her as a sheep would, so she is not actually successfully working him. I figure this is just the way she relates to the world.

 

I have handled both Fly and Solo on sheep many times and know what a Border Collie that is actually working behaves like. Solo, the few times he has been loose with a group of dogs, playing, is an orbiter and a chaser and I am sure that plenty of people would say he is "herding" the other dogs, but he is not. On the other hand, what Fly does around other dogs is very similar if not the same as what a working Border Collie does around sheep, again, with the exception that dogs cannot be worked like sheep can so it isn't actually working and she isn't actually moving anything. I would describe what Fly does as an elaborate pantomime of actual work.

 

Fly is perfectly capable of interacting with Solo like a normal dog, but it is also true that she never really chases him. In fact, of all the Border Collies I have ever met, she is the least motion-sensitive and least likely to chase and/or attempt to subdue anything, and as far as I can tell she has zero real prey drive. I have seen her accidentally flush rabbits while running through grass and literally trip over the rabbits, oblivious, she is that uninterested in them. She has never looked at a squirrel. She ignores cats. She has no grip whatsoever on sheep, which is unfortunate. If there were more predator in her, she'd be more effective at moving tough sheep.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Luisa's rant. But I also think that some of the stereotyped behaviors that some Border Collies display in some non-working situations are related to the working behaviors they have been stringently selected for. No, they aren't "herding," but it isn't always just plain old dog behavior either. I agree that misunderstandings could be avoided by more precise language, and if people described what the dogs are actually doing rather than using an inaccurate interpretive shorthand such as "herding."

[Anda]

To add to Melanie's last comment that some of BC behaviours are not plain old dog behaviours, here's a very recent example: last evening I was out with Ouzo playing frisbee in the snow (beats sand, I guess, since we've never been to the beach with Ouzo ) and a lady was walking her pit bull cross (or something brindle who's not allowed to play with other dogs, therefore she always lounges at them...) pass our small dog run/park.

 

She noticed that Ouzo was frozen in "stalking" the frisbee which was laying on the ground at the moment. You know, the "frisbee eye", "be one with the frisbee" that we all talk about. I was behind him, watching him with a big grin. And the lady says" Well, does he think the frisbee will throw itself?!" and she laughed and walked by.

 

She totaly missinterpreted his behaviour, not being used to BC "manierism" (to use Grace's term ) and most probably thought "What a dumb dog!". I felt like saying something, then I thought better and ingored her comment.

[blackacre]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

But I also think that some of the stereotyped behaviors that some Border Collies display in some non-working situations are related to the working behaviors they have been stringently selected for. No, they aren't "herding," but it isn't always just plain old dog behavior either

I agree. Scary huh, Melanie?

 

There really is more going on than just simple prey drive in certain behaviours that border collies engage in off sheep. Most will disappear once a dog is started on sheep and pretty well all of them are annoying and should never be allowed to manifest in the first place, but they are certainly there and they are an aspect of the complex of behaviours that makes the border collie a sheepdog.

 

A

[ShoresDog]

Sounds to me like "herding" is the shorthand on this board for all the BC chasing, stalking, and eyeing behaviors that are the raw material from which the true working behaviors can be molded!

[shelb'smum]

So I will ask this after reading this thread I know it may seem like a silly question, but it is valid and I know I will get a good answer.

at our local bark park we have a pair of aussies. now these Aussie's don't "play" with other dogs. These Aussie's will team up against a few dogs and "work" them where ever they want, this includes nipping the flanks growling and overall being pushy. they are very serious about this and look to be "working". are they in fact showing just a prey drive? or are they "working"?

 

 

ETA: they do play with Pete and Shelby and as they have tried to "h" them, but found that it won't really work with my two.

[Root Beer]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

. . . behaviors that some Border Collies display in some non-working situations are related to the working behaviors they have been stringently selected for. No, they aren't "herding," but it isn't always just plain old dog behavior either. I agree that misunderstandings could be avoided by more precise language, and if people described what the dogs are actually doing rather than using an inaccurate interpretive shorthand such as "herding."

I like how you put that.

 

I have two Border Collies and two mutts. All four dogs have prey drive. Sammie and Maddie (the mutts) chase rabbits with passion, and both will get "drivey" over a squeaky ball. But the Border Collies act different. They stalk, they circle, they lock in their focus. I often see their prey drive manifest itself differently from the way it comes forth in a non-Border Collie dog.

 

And it is my understanding that they act as they do, in large part, because of the selection that took place many, many generations ago to develop a type of dog that would be able to work sheep.

 

Hence the shorthand common term, "herding".

 

I can understand why hearing that is like nails on a chalk board to those who are "in the know", but there is a need for precise terminology to differentiate between typical Border Collie behavior that is sometimes different from that of most other breeds of dog. Terms like "herding drive", "herding behavior", or just "herding" end up being the words that are used among the common folk. Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

 

However, I'm very open to new terminology to make those distinctions.

[Rubzoe]

What I think was missing in the original rant was that when people are talking about the "instinct" they are oftentimes looking for background on the behavior and ways to stop the behavior before something bad happens - run over by car, bites a person, etc.

 

Any comments on this are welcomed.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Rubzoe:

What I think was missing in the original rant was that when people are talking about the "instinct" they are oftentimes looking for background on the behavior and ways to stop the behavior before something bad happens - run over by car, bites a person, etc.

 

Any comments on this are welcomed.

I actually think what really grates is more of the opposite--the people who dismiss such behavior as herding behavior or instinct, the implication being that there's nothing to be done about it. Inappropriate or misdirected "herding" behavior is bad behavior and shouldn't be allowed just because of the breed of dog doing the behavior.

 

Then there's the whole cadre of people who are convinced their dogs could be top-level working dogs solely on the basis of their "herding" the children, eyeing the ball, or chasing the cars passing by on the road....

 

For example, as far as I know, almost any puppy will go through a stage of nipping at feet and pants legs, yet when someone who owns a border collie posts about how to stop it they nearly always mention that the pup is apparently trying to "herd" them (or the kids). No, the pup is being a pup and needs to be corrected. And guess what? Correcting for nipping the pants leg won't affect any real working drive at all (should the dog ever be taken to stock)!

 

I have no problem with people looking for ways to correct such behavior, but labeling that behavior as herding is wrong--at best it's misdirected "herding," and really it's just bad manners (or typical puppy behavior in the example above).

 

I agree with Melanie that this breed exhibits certain behavior traits that are directly associated with the work they were bred to do, but I still don't call eyeing or chasing the kids or a ball herding. And I certainly don't call it work.

 

J.

[Firchow]

Originally posted by blackacre:

....pretty well all of them are annoying and should never be allowed to manifest in the first place....

Agreed. I even agree that some behaviors are more pronounced in border collies. But to accept bad behavior because "that's what border collies do" does a disservice to the dog. If I wouldn't accept a behavior from (pick a breed) I'm sure as heck not going to accept it just because my dog is a border collie. I hold border collies to a much higher standard.

 

Anyone who believes that some obnoxious behaviors are just part of what a border collie is needs to go to a major field trial and see how (most) properly reared border collies act even in the midst of what to them has to be an extraordinarily seductive environment (surrounded by sheep, dogs, and whistles).

[Vickkers]

Very interesting and informative! I have been guilty of this myself

 

Thank you

[muggs]

I like Melanie's discription as well and definitely can testify that crouching, eyeing, stalking during play has nothing to do with how the dog will work on livestock. I have one - I love him anyway.

[Dixie_Girl]

When I got Jackson I was, I thought, well versed on Border Collies! LOL The first time I saw Jackson crouch and "eye" a toy, I was ecstatic! Look! He's so young and already showing his herding instinct! THEN when I took him out to Bill's, (Skips breeder) to intro him to sheep, I told him, very full of myself, about how well Jackson would do because of what I saw him doing with a toy. It was all Bill could do to keep from laughing in my face(bless him for that!). He said, well, that is because of his BREED, whether he works on stock will be because of his BREEDING. Border Collies crouch, give "eye" etc. because of the breed. All breeds have their inheirent traits that make them do certain things in certain ways. The border collie has had years and years of breeding to make them do certain things. In order to be a help on farm or ranch, or succeed in trials depends on more than "mindless" crouching, giving the "eye" etc. They have to think on their feet at split second timing. They have to obey the handler when everything in them is telling them to do the opposite. All of this, and more, is not achieved by the BREED, but by BREEDING. Yes, training too, of course. And yes, some very well bred pups will not ever work stock. But my point is not in these "fine tuned points" but that there is a big difference between "charateristics" and what the dog is able to do on stock.

 

I don't really know why the word "herding" is such a hackle raiser. It is defined as gathering, driving and controlling live stock. So if I am the handler directing the dog, am I the "herder" and the dog is the worker? Is that where the division is? Is it just because ACK uses it soooo very loosly?

[Kyrasmom]

I think the term herding is such a hackle raiser because it's used so often as an excuse for a dog's bad behavior or even for potentially good behaviors that people don't channel correctly.

 

Instead of people saying, my dog chases the cat, they say he herds the cat, instead of saying my dog nips at the kids heals, they say he's herding the kids, so it becomes somehow inherently negative to people for whom the herding behaviors, and more importantly, working abilities are so precious.

 

Herding becomes a substitute, almost said with pride sometimes, about antics (sometimes amusing) that really should not be allowed. Many OCD behaviors are associated with herding, flashlights, shadows, chasing, circling etc etc...

 

So I don't really think it's the term so much that bugs people but the fact that people want to explain away what they've not been able to train out of their dog.

 

My Gracie had a flashlight fetish when she came to me, still would I'm sure if I reinforced it, but when she exhibits OCD tendancies towards a flashlight (as I do use one on night walks) I correct her. It's not herding.

 

I will confess to having been very amused by the fact that upon seeing livestock on TV, she promptly went behind the TV set to look for them...but that's not herding either...not even sure if it's a BC mannerism...but it sure made me laugh because it showed me she was thinking on her feet and working with whatever resources she had. And that I think is what makes the breed special.

 

Maria

[hoku's mum]

Thanks for the great rant. I am constantly learning more on this board about this amazing guy laying at my feet. I sometimes wish I could start over with him, but forward we go!

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I will confess to having been very amused by the fact that upon seeing livestock on TV, she promptly went behind the TV set to look for them...but that's not herding either...not even sure if it's a BC mannerism...but it sure made me laugh because it showed me she was thinking on her feet and working with whatever resources she had. And that I think is what makes the breed special.

What a smart girl. Quinn used to knock the DVR off the shelf when he'd go after agility dogs (once it was a bear, though not doing agility) on TV. Last night, he became very interested in a PBS show on Big Cats. The leopard especially got him going. I was doing laundry and on one of my trips past the living room, I saw him curled up on the sofa, his head on the arm rest, still watching the show by himself.

[shelb'smum]

Originally posted by Shetlander:

I was doing laundry and on one of my trips past the living room, I saw him on the curled up on the sofa, his head on the arm rest, still watching the show by himself.

Shelby does this as well. last night there were sheep on TV so she got right up close to the TV and tried to nudge them with her nose and then of course barking/growling every time a dog showed up on the set.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sounds to me like "herding" is the shorthand on this board for all the BC chasing, stalking, and eyeing behaviors that are the raw material from which the true working behaviors can be molded!

No, working ability isn't molded from those behaviors. They are (in my thinking) a "bleedover" from what is bred in the dog (or in the dog's ancestors.

 

The reason I say this is the classic example of a dog that seems to have "all the right moves" on ball, the cat, the kids, and won't look at a sheep, or actually has little style at all on sheep. I've got one of those.

 

Ben has a beautiful "set" and eye on the frisbee, tennis balls, whatever - he is particularly wonderful at "balancing" soccer balls. But one of his weakest points on sheep is lack of eye and balance. Okay, that's two weakest points, but they typically bite me in the rear at the same time while working. Or the sheep's rear, maybe I should say.

 

I should also mention that I've had a variety of mixed breeds that there's no way that they had a drop of Border Collie blood in them, that exhibited things like eye, stalking, etc. Bully breeds (as Luisa points out) are particularly known for their own brands of OCD behavior, as do some spaniels and other bird dogs, so Border Collies don't have the corner on that market, either.

 

What it boils down to in my own mind, is that what makes a Border Collie special, is the marvelous and unique way they can work stock. I'll call it "herding" to other people but when you know what I mean when I talk about my dogs' work, it's kinda like a secret handshake.

[stockdogranch]

Glenn's "extraordinarily seductive environment" is one of the most accurate and yet poetic phrasings I've ever heard. NICE!

A

[SoloRiver]

These Aussie's will team up against a few dogs and "work" them where ever they want, this includes nipping the flanks growling and overall being pushy. they are very serious about this and look to be "working". are they in fact showing just a prey drive? or are they "working"?

 

They are displaying really freaking obnoxious behavior and if they tried that on Solo they'd both end up flat on their backs, because Solo is wacko and has no compunctions about flattening a dog that is annoying him with little or no preamble. I don't consider Solo's behavior acceptable, but it almost sounds like those Aussies (and maybe their clueless owners) deserve it.

 

It seems to me that a lot of Aussies seem to have that sort of pushy, obnoxious personality around other dogs. Solo has had problems with Aussies in group classes much more often than he has with other breeds of dog (never his fault, either). I have no idea if it has anything to do with their working behaviors. So few Aussies have any real working instincts left anyway that I'd be reluctant to chalk it up to breeding for work.

 

The thing that gets left out of these discussions, and that would go a long way toward eliminating confusion, is a consideration of context. Dogs, normal dogs anyway, are quite excellent at differentiating between different contexts. The same behavior may mean very different things in different context -- just like with people. Border Collies tend to have very stereotyped behaviors. They will crouch and eye when highly aroused and all it means, by itself, is that they are really interested in something. It cannot be "herding" if there is nothing to "herd." When Fly runs around a jump in flyball instead of going over it (sadly, something she does quite often) she is not "herding" it, she is simply running around it. I feel sorry for dogs whose owners think they are "herding" the vacuum cleaner, because their owners clearly believe that they have very stupid dogs. My dogs are not that stupid. They can tell the difference between a skateboard and a sheep. I wouldn't want a dog so stupid that it would try to herd a frisbee, or a lamppost.

 

A verbal shorthand that sets my teeth on edge is when people refer to Border Collies with particularly annoying, out of context behaviors, as "herdy." This seems very common among Sport Collie people. The dog that chases all the other dogs non-stop is "herdy." The dog that is especially jacked up and out of control in agility or flyball is "herdy." These people are always sure that their "herdy" dogs would be superstars if they ever bothered to take them to sheep because they crouch and eye everything that moves and a lot of things that don't. These people also tend to assume that working-bred dogs will be even more jacked up and harder to handle than the average Sport Collie when those of us with working dogs know that nothing could be farther from the truth. Ah well, I guess people will believe what they want to believe.

 

I don't find Fly's behavior around Solo to be particularly annoying. I let her do it around him because she enjoys it and he ignores it. I don't let her do it to other dogs, though, because your average dog considers it very odd behavior, or even threatening. Fly clearly considers it different from real work, because she is rather happy-go-lucky about her "Solo herding" but deadly serious when working sheep. I guess context is important here too.

[airbear]

Put me in the camp of disappointed folks whose 'stalky' tennis ball dog turned out to be a complete washout on sheep. Wick balances beautifully to me on a ball - she even stops (reluctantly) off balance. But on sheep, well, let's just say in the one arena trial she tried, we got zero points, as she couldn't persuade even one sheep to move around the first obstacle. She will, however, run through the drive panels by herself, and will self-pen.

 

Lou works Wick, and exhibits relatively the same behaviours on her as he does on sheep. However, she never lifts correctly, and after a few minutes of 'working', his behaviour deteriorates into goofy bouncing.

 

I think that a lot of people use the 'herding' term to excuse bad behaviour. When a border collie is nipping and circling his handler in agility, people say he's 'herding'. When a jack russel does it, he's 'being a terrier'. When a Doberman does it, he's 'being aggressive'. To me, they're all being bratty, and that behaviour should be stopped. But then I am the fun police.

 

My personal pet peeve is when people tell me that their dog knows "come bye" and "away", and proceed to send their dogs around a garbage can. I find it very odd that they took the time to learn those words, but haven't a clue about the context.