Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 I'll never forget the time I was watching the Eukanuba show and they were interviewing the BIS judge. "How do you pick from all these great dogs?" they asked, a very natural question, since presumably all these dogs meet the standards. "One of them just speaks to me, their eyes say, 'I want it!'" :eek: :eek: :eek: I nearly came out of my chair. She admitted it was all arbitrary! Dogs don't speak! Can you imagine if one of the judges at the National Finals said that? I often look at the Westminster and Eukanuba results. Year after year the same dogs are invited, and compete against each other, always with totally different results. Sometimes Merlin wins, sometimes Anne-MArie Silverton's dogs win, sometimes some other dog wins. Are they different dogs on different days? By allowing these same dogs to compete against each other at show after show after they've already won their titles, they are admitting, again, that the whole thing is arbitrary and political. These dogs are selected for some kind of showmanship characteristic. The question is, what IS that quality or set of qualities, and how does selecting for it shape the breed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Hey! What's that about engineers??!!??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 These dogs are selected for some kind of showmanship characteristic. The question is, what IS that quality or set of qualities, and how does selecting for it shape the breed? The interesting thing is how it shapes BREEDS, plural. Show dogs converge on a generic show dog type, because a certain type is naturally flashier in that environment. They tend to be square, to be "forward" (eyes, stance, ears), to be very upright standing, to have a lot of bone, to have a flashy side gait, and in coated breeds, to be very hairy. Dog shows are a homogenizing influence not just within and between breeds. There are some breeds that become much more extreme than they ever were before shows (like bulldogs), but it seems like the "moderate" breeds, save minor cosmetic differences, all start looking like each other. It's been opined by some that selecting for the flashy, forward type dogs that are rewarded in the show ring is inadvertently selecting for pushy, "dominant" (for want of a better word), aggressive personalities and therefore behavioral problems. Considering the mental messes some conformation-bred "herding" breeds generally are (Belgians, anyone? -- the most upright and chest out of them all), I'm not surprised at all. At least the Barbie Collie breeders don't appear to be selecting for that kind of problem temperament. They seem to have decided to go the stuffed animal/lobotomized route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by SoloRiver:At least the Barbie Collie breeders don't appear to be selecting for that kind of problem temperament. They seem to have decided to go the stuffed animal/lobotomized route. [/QB] Shockingly, I was talking to an aquaintance in the Barbie Collie Culture one day - he was lamenting about how he "loved" the working Border Collies (he started out with working Aussies)but felt he just had to breed away from that "hyper mentality" because show people wanted calm, pretty "pets", not athletes. The Barbie Collies need to be able to stand around and be pampered, not exercised and stimulated constantly. Very Sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Hi Y'all, I suppose I'm a reformed POD person too: )) I started out breeding and showing Shelties 15 years ago. After realizing that I was finding it difficult to find dogs with stable temperaments I ended that chapter of my life and rescued a BC. She is not a Barbie Collie at all but goes back to Dalziel's Wisp on her sire's side & her Mother is a litter sister to Lockeye Smooch. She is 5 years old now and is the easiest dog to live with. She learns everything quickly and was the only dog to successfully start on sheep at a clinic (held by Aussie folks)I went to last week. I did look into Barbie Collies at first (I didn't know) but I'm glad I didn't get one. In fact I rescued one from the pound last month and that is exactly what she is a Golden wearing a tux- I got her with the intention of rehoming her and I am- I couldn't live with her permanently. It's not the same breed of dog. I also bought a dog from Tom & Karen Lacy and she is very much like my other girl- not at all like the Barbie from the pound. My dogs have common sense and are biddable and useful to me in any venue I choose- agility, house chores, training other dogs, and one day hopefully to help me manage stock. I've spoken with a couple of Barbie breeders and they claim that their dogs are bred from dogs that can handle 1000 head of sheep all day long because that is how big the herds are downunder and my answer to that is "Yes but do you work the dogs that you breed?" Most of the time the answer is no or that they used to have a Herding Ch. and that was their foundation for breeding stock. I suspect that breeding for working characteristic is genetically like every other trait you could breed for- not every pup in a litter would have almond shaped eyes and tuliped ears and straight legs AND a scissors bite. (If this were the criteria of a good dog) Many pups will deviate from the ideal and physical traits are easy to determine at any age but what about working traits? If you never test/prove and observe your breeding stock you will never see if any of your dogs meet the critera for what is a "good dog". I'm sorry to say that they still don't get it. I quit doing anything AKC and will spend my money elsewhere and as far as breeding (BC's)goes- I have no experience and no clue either. I'll leave it to the experts and buy a nice dog when I want one. A friend of mine who is Scottish and lives here in the US has a US bred smooth coated girl who weighs all of about 30 lbs sopping wet (this girl is black with brindle legs and prick ears- talk about deviation from the "percieved classic BC")- anyway she went home to Scotland for a visit and told me stories of monster BC's (I suppose compaired to her girl). Giants that work! But if they get the job done then the shepherds are selecting for what is functioning for them now under current conditions. Anyhow I just wanted to say hello and introduce myself, I've been lurking here a bit- and to say that some of us POD people are redeemable if you beat us over the head with common sense. Annette Delta & Buffy (the Borderbratz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 > Well said, Annette. Welcome to the Boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Annette, Welcome. Years ago, I too used to show shelties and when I got my first BC, my entire way of looking at dogs in general, changed because of border collies. I now have 9 (I lost 3 BC old timers within the last, 2 of which in February alone.) I also have come to the conclusion that breeding these dogs the way they should be, is best left to the experts. I'll contribute my part, however small, with rescue. A friend of mine who is Scottish and lives here in the US has a US bred smooth coated girl who weighs all of about 30 lbs sopping wet (this girl is black with brindle legs and prick ears- talk about deviation from the "percieved classic BCI am extremely curious. What is the name of the dog that you mentioned? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi Vicki, You're in Ohio! I'm in Ohio! I'm a southern girl who's redefined her vision of hell to be a solid block of ice! The BC I spoke of is Rhona, perhaps you know her?? Flyball Ch. extraordinaire!! Her mommy is Carol Satina. I too rescue BCs and may be driving to NC to pick a 5 month old tri girl with 1 white ear because BC rescue down there seems to be all full. We are in the middle of selling a house and probably moving the beginning of April-strapped for funds (unbelieveably so) but somehow we'll make it work that is just the nature of rescue I guess. Thanks for the welcome, Annette & the borderbratz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi Annette! I figured! I bred Rhona and she and her mom, Flick, brother Satch and grandpa Pete are on my Dogster link. And I just took in a rescue boy who might be half brother to Rhona and Satch (still to be determined). Brindled, smooth, prick-eared bitch with an owner who was born in Scotland---I would have been quite surprised had it been someone else. That's some pretty specific criteria. LOL And I think we might have met at one time. Again, welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Yes! In the dog park! I was looking at your 8 month old girl at the time! How is she? She is gorgeous (for being stock dog bred- she isn't a barbie collie maybe more of a Bond Girl Collie : )) Since I met with you, I rescued 3 BCs in quick succession and had to wait on getting another dog for myself for quite a while... I was sorry it didn't work out. We ended up taking a trip to visit my inlaws in Virginia and I was able to pick up a baby from Karen Lacy- I got a nice girl so I'm happy but I always thought "what if" about your girl. We'll have to meet again someime when the weather warms up a bit. Annette & the borderbratz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 I think it was Sara? She went on to her new home. I always figure if it's meant to be, it will be. Things happen or don't happen for a reason. I remember we talked about Karen Lacy and I am so pleased that you are happy with your dog. Since we first met, I think I placed four rescue dogs, sold Sara, and within the past year, four of my own died. Pete, Rhona's grandfather--you met him, died this past October. Tattie, Rhona's grandmother, died last week. So it's been a year of losses. I still have my hands full, but it's not the same without my "rock" dogs. I'm glad you found these boards----tons of invaluable info here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi Vicki, I'm so sorry for your losses. I know just how hard it is. I went to Pete's page and yes I remember him- I might forget people but I never forget a dog. You are the only person around Cleveland with quality dogs (strong working [ for any type of work ]drive) that come in a saddle back sable color. I think there might be a few English imports from the agility community but those are all likely altered so I can't see the genes passing in this area. Besides they are non registerable here as they are classified as working sheepdogs in England and are bred there by the Boltons who are mainly agility exhibitors who use their dogs to herd sheep. They are also larger dogs compaired to mine as well. I'm also glad I found this place. I think farmers and ranchers are a riot (in a good way!) and I appreciate their humor and no-nonsense view of their work and their dogs. I hope to have a farm someday before I get too old. My husband is a US Marine and has about 7 years until retirement- then we plan on building a farm for ourselves. Annette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperia Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi Annette, I got my girl Jenna through Karen Lacy. Did you get your's recently? Toss and Jody are Jenna's folks and she is 11wks. old. Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi, Buffy is just over a year old now she is out of Heather X Jared. I just met an 18 month old boy at a herding clinic out of Toss I believe but a different Dam. I love fuzzy genius puppies don't you! I hope your having a ball with Jenna. I have to say Karen did a very nice job matching me up with this pup and I had a very tall order for her. Annette & the borderbratz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperia Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 She's great. my order was for a chill family dog, thats a pretty tall order in the reverse sense, since they are border collies after all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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