Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I never did a lot of winning in the lower classes as I moved up as soon as I won a couple times (my choice), and, well, I never did a lot of winning in Open Ranch. OK, none. Ribbons but no wins. But I'll move up when I've got a handle on formal shedding anyway. Maybe I'll get a win in before then - one can always hope? Anyway, yes, all the Novice classes are preparation, learning grounds, for the USBCHA classes. Ranch/Pronovice do overlap with Nursery many times - the work required is often identical at many trials, but there is no Pronovice National Champion or Finals (thank goodness). Saying, my dog does great in Novice classes is a bit like saying, my kid does great in preschool. That's all very nice up to a point, but if your kid is sixteen years old, you start getting embarrassed for the person bragging on the kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I find myself drawn to Westminster each year, sort of like a moth to a flame....but I did find the website fascinating. If you go to the Herding group winners page you'll find Merlin (the Border Collie) at the top with his info and photos posted. Click on the Border Collie link to see quite a different photo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by brookcove2:Saying, my dog does great in Novice classes is a bit like saying, my kid does great in preschool. That's all very nice up to a point, but if your kid is sixteen years old, you start getting embarrassed for the person bragging on the kid. Brava Becca! And might I add that breeding those dogs because they have done great in novice trials is also wrong. And way too much of that goes on. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Looks like they want to have their cake and eat it, too! I expect that's part of the AKC play to become THE source for all things Border Collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 And speaking of the WKC, the Working Group winner was a Great Pyr. I wonder how much actual livestock guarding instinct that dog has? I watched the WKC dog show on TV both nights and actually enjoyed it. Now I am not saying I promote conformation breeding, but I do like to see the different breeds and hear what the announcer has to say about their heritage and what they were bred for (not that is matters anymore in the show ring), but it still is informative just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve clendenin Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Let us all rember that we should use every chance to educate others what a true Border Collie is. The thing I use to tell if i'm probaby talking to the other side of the fence is when the term HEARDING is used in the conversation. If you pay attation to my post that term is never used. I use working my dogs. Until the other side started messing with our dog you never heard the term HEARDING.ONLY WORKING. Ok I'm from the old school and proud of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan's Mom Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I was listening to the radio on my way to work yesterday when they mentioned that the "herding" group would be shown last night. All I could think of is..."what do they herd"...nothing. I don't use my dogs for work, but I wouldn't give up that instinct for anything...and especially because I like to go Steve's and pretend that we do actually do work with our dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Keegan (and later Tess) are "learning to work". Trust me, hang out there long enough and they will work for real. Ask Rick and Random. They've seen so much of the inside of that lambing barn they are probably sick of it. I just can't seem to convince Steve that working in little pens has nothing to do with getting AKC herding titles on my dogs - HA HA!! And that barn muck is murder on the coat - it takes gallons of Super Fluff 60 to get it all out before the shows. Thank goodness for chalk or the red mud stains on their whites would be a real handicap - we'd probably have to give up working. Too bad, Random was kind of turning out well: Speaking of pod people . . . :eek: I code switch. If I'm talking to "herding" people, I say "working". If I'm talking to people who genuinely "work" their dogs in other venues such as protection, public service, and as assistance dogs, I do say "herd". I also use "herd" around people who insist on calling sports or [shudder] bench showing, "work". I don't fight every battle every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperia Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 another thread about the akc show. Sneaking one over on me are you? You know I had never thought about the words that people use. But now that i think about it, i see what you mean. I had a woman at a park tell me that Jenna was a herding dog. No breed mentioned, and when i said yes, she's a border collie, the only thing she said was "a herding dog" Maybe she was trying to make a distintion between the working BC and the conformation by calling Jenna a herding dog, instead of a border collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I'm real green when it comes to all of this, but I have a question, maybe someone could help with. What postive influence has the AKC (or, for that matter any kennel club) ever had on any breed? Maybe I'm poorly informed, but doesn't the selctive breeding process (form over function) almost always lead to diblitating congential defects? Arthritc hindquarters in German Shepards, heart problems in St. Bernards and general behavioral problems as well? The Akita and Chow are excellent examples of this. As far as I am aware, both breeds decend from working lines and are now both useless for work and highly unpredictable and have a history of turning on their owners and children. I'm I totally off base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hdk9s Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Here are some eyes for you, This dog is sure smart, I would love to walk him into a show ring, Dont seem to see a lot of short coats. It would be a good laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 There's a pretty famous smooth showing right now, but he doesn't get put up when the real bench bred dogs show up. He is out of Michelle Weisse's breeding (Oklahoma, I think?). I have a friend who was pretty into the versatility thing when the breed was first recognized and attempted to show a smooth for a while. She gave up in disgust. The dog was absolutely correct in structure but couldn't even take second in a two dog entry. I can't think offhand of a working breed that the AKC improved. I think it would be great for nonworking ornamental breeds if it regulated puppy mills and encouraged healthy breeding but it doesn't. The thing is, anything that shifts focus from the breed ring as a selection tool is anathema and they won't touch such suggestions with a ten foot pole - even a code of ethics that would prevent the breeding of unhealthy dogs. They pretend they don't have any power when in fact they hold all the cards in the purebred dog world - they spay and neuter their breed clubs and then pretend it is the responsibility of the breed club to set the tone of each breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hdk9s Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Brrokcove you are absolutly right they have all the power, but I think they will lose money and we know how dear that green stuff is to people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I don't want anyone to hate me for this, but the dog that won (first photo) is flat out georgeous. It's just a shame no one has the fortitude to say,.. ok, I'll breed for looks and intelligence, good physical and mental health,etc. sure, this would take longer at first, but it would certainly seem healthier for the breed, not to mention just be a better attitude over all for breeders to latch onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Shotgun, You might want to spend some time reading the archives before you start talking about fortitude and appropriate breeding goals. Also, I guess what they say about the eye of the beholder is true. I see beauty in dogs at work. I see beauty in their muddiness and leanness and scruffiness. To me, beauty has nothing to do with hair spray, chalk, Show Sheen, the amount of stop a dog has, or whether he is good at staring at liver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 like Melanie said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I personally dont find Merlin to be gorgous at all, the head shape is revolting to me, and I like smooth coated muscle bound, leggy dogs, with very little stop,a long muzzle, and a strong intesity in the eyes. if goinf by only looks this is how I would describe a gorgous BC. however like Melanie any dog, weather it fits my above description or not, is gorgous in the feild doing what it was bred to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted February 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Shotgun: ....ok, I'll breed for looks and intelligence, good physical and mental health,etc. OK I'll admit it, I have looks that I prefer (small, stocky, "blocky head", smooth-coated, mostly dark, pricked ears, tri-colored) and may actually make breeding choices on those looks. BUT only after higher breeding priorities have been met: working ability/talent, health, working style, off-stock temperament, and then looks. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan's Mom Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 My family members commented to me that they watched the show...they said that the BC's on the show looked NOTHING like Keegan...their main observation is that they are fat and Keegan is lean. I can't believe how beefy these dogs look. I tried to watch the internet feed last night but got disgusted and turned it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 > I can't imagine anyone hating you -- they would just conclude that you don't know much about real border collies. That's no crime. > Why would that take fortitude? And what might "etc." be? Can't be very important, I suppose, if it's not worth specifying. > Longer than what? Healthier than what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted February 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Good point Eileen, how would breeding for looks make a breed healthier; breeding for looks would only yield the desired look. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Mark, I have a slight twist on that--I might *choose* (the twist being that I haven't made such a breeding decision because I haven't bred) a pup with a smooth coat and prick ears, maybe even with white factoring, and I especially love ticking, but FIRST and FOREMOST that litter would have to have been bred strictly for working ability. And of course I would have to like the way the dog and bitch worked--I think the philosophy that you better be willing to live with either parent because you could get a dog just like one or the other is a good one. So, yes, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but the dog shown at the top of this thread and the other clones in the ring are NOT my idea of beautiful. That said, if that (in my eyes) ugly dog could work circles around what I already have, well, then I'd look past his physical traits and accept him completely on his abilities. To put it another way, and I've said this before, if I had a choice between a dog matching the AKC standard and my personal favorite (smooth coat, prick ears), I would choose my nonpersonal favorite (the AKC look), if that dog were indeed the superior worker. And in fact, would do so even if the superior worker looked like some ol' hound dog someone dragged in out of the bushes.... And that's the difference between the conformation mindset and the working mindset. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperia Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 How does a huge fluffy coat equal a healthier dog? To do what a border collie is meant to do would be next to impossible with that kind of coat. It would in fact be quite unhealthy for a working dog, yes its pretty, but what about the upkeep? Thats why a lot of people perfer the smooth coat. Not to say that a long coat doesn't have its place in certain climates. Thats why BC's are so diverse in appearance. There are a lot of options to fit exact needs. If you narrow their appearance to what one person thinks looks good, you lose that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borderco1 Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I would add that breeding for looks does the opposite of making a breed healthier. The english bulldog comes to mind, bred so much for looks they can't breath or give birth by themselves. There are many other exampls but that was just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Breeding for looks comes down to breeding for style - appearance, gait, coat, structure, etc. Check out a previous thread called "Rosettes to Ruin" for an example of this, and how it adversely affects a breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 My terminoligy needs work, but this is really what I was getting at: Some breeders are going to go toward the AKC standard simply becasue there's money in it. People will buy border Collies that look like the ones that they see on t.v. and there are plenty of people breeding dogs that would be happy to oblige. What I meant by fortitude (maybe thats the wrong word, I should have perhaps chosen patience) is that instead of completely ignoring what the dogs original purpose is, to put in some extra time finding parents of good working stock who also seem to fit the AKC appearance standards so that further generations do not become what would essentialy be another breed altogether. As I said in the one post I don't believe that breeding for looks alon is healthy and there are many good example of this. I don't think people should do this at all (if it is done at the expense of the dogs health) but people WILL DO IT ANYWAY. So if they are going to, maybe they could at least try to mix the two standards as best they can. That's all I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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