concerned - need help!

[muddy bob]

I think my dog fits the description almost to a tee. She is a super fit never out of shape dog with an extremely excitable, intense temperament. Her temperament is why she is not really a good stock dog. And she cannot take much pressure from training.

Whatever this may be, I wonder why it has taken years for it to appear. After reading all this I'm rather worried to do anything strenuous with her.

Another thing I'm now recalling is when she walked, the front limbs reached upwards really high.

Now I have a little guilt over not recognizing the potential seriousness of this.

Does any one know of research being done that includes breeds besides retrievers?

 

muddy

[Eileen Stein]

Denise Wall is out west trialing, but I think I can safely say that she believes at least tentatively that EIC can be found in border collies.

[Kerrigan]

OK, I just got back from the vet with Bunny. Her femoral pulses were strong and she had strong synchronized pulses, no heart murmur, lungs are fine. They did a blood pressure test and an ECG - both were normal. They didn't do a chest x-ray since her lungs sounded clear and the ECG was normal. They also did a full blood screen and urinalysis, but I probably won't hear the results of that until tomorrow. The vet also checked her spine, neck and hindquarters for possible problems

 

I asked about the exertional hyperthermia and the vet said that might be it, although she said it would be unusual for it to show up this late in the dog's life. She said it could be that she just isn't tolerating the heat as well as she used to now that she's getting older. Basically, at this point she doesn't really know what happened or why Bunny had extremely weak femoral pulses. Those should have been pretty strong right after being worked.

 

I haven't had a chance to read the EIC article yet, but will do so shortly. Bunny didn't collapse either time. She just got wobbly in her back end and her movement wasn't normal. She was panting, which isn't unusual, and was walking around with me to cool down after she got a drink, then her rear movement got weird.

 

If it is the exertional hyperthermia is that something hereditary? Can you still work your dog with precautions? Would hosing the dog down prior to working and after help as a preventative measure?

 

I had a Lab that had a bout of heat exhaustion about 15 yrs ago when my DH was throwing the ball for her (I wasn't with them at the time), but never had a problem with the BC's. We live where it routinely gets 100+ during the summer/early fall. I have always tried to be really careful when exercising the dogs by monitoring how hard they were panting and breathing, checking their gums, as well as checking to make sure they weren't dehydrated.

 

I would definitely love to see the article on recognizing heat exhaustion though in case I'm missing something.

[2 Devils]

Here is one article but not Bill's which I cannot find...

 

http://www.gshepherd.com/heat_stroke.htm

[Miztiki]

Thanks for updating us. I hope it's nothing and that Bunny (love the name) can continue her activities unrestricted for many, many more years yet. Let us know if the blood results show anything.

 

She's doing fine since Saturday though, right?

[Journey]

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html

 

Here's a site that the Lab club has up - a study done by Dr. Taylor.

 

Karen

[Kerrigan]

I just read the EIC article and many things do fit, but some do not - such as EIC dogs don't have episodes during normal play and Bunny did have an episode during normal play. I guess Bunny is pretty excitable when she thinks she is going to work stock, but otherwise is a pretty mellow girl.

 

I e-mailed Dr. Taylor to ask if the affected EIC dogs had weak femoral pulses either prior to or after collapse. If I hear back from her I'll let you know what she says.

[Kerrigan]

Hey Miz ~

 

Bunny was a Y2K Easter baby, hence the name. My youngest was sure she was going to have rabbit ears and a cotton tail I was really glad to hear Boy is doing better also.

[Kerrigan]

Well, I haven't heard back from Dr. Taylor regarding my question on about EIC and a weak femoral pulse, but its the weekend so maybe next week.

 

I did hear back on Bunny's lab results. Everything is normal, however her thyroid level may be a bit low. I'll have to take her back in next week just for the specific thyroid test. My herding instructor said that the vet who saw Bunny on Thursday evening told her to have me get her thyroid checked as well. I hope its just the thyroid causing the problems with the heat as that's treatable. I don't want to endanger her by working her if she can't handle the heat. She will be a very sad little BC if she can't work stock anymore.

[Kerrigan]

Hey I just got a reply from Dr. Taylor. Here it is:

 

Labs with EIC still have very strong femoral pulses during collapse - I am certain of that because as part of our research we collected arterial blood gas samples during collapse from 15 of these dogs. They are bounding pulses.

Border Collies do definitely have a syndrome that looks very similar to Labrador EIC but is not the same. In the cases I have had a chance to observe, almost always their muscles get stiff and their gait gets choppy as they continue to exercise, while the Labradors are flaccid and seem to almost have a balance problem. It is unusual for Border Collies to get to the point that they absolutely are unable to walk or move, where this is common in Labradors with EIC. Also, muscle enzymes are

sometimes increased in the Border Collies when they go down - they are always totally normal or barely elevated in Labradors. A common feature is the high body temperature, but we have found temperatures over 42C in normal exercising (retrieivng ) Labradors as well. I am pretty sure the Border Collies have some kind of metabolic myopathy/neuropathy that (similar to the Labs) is triggered by exercise and excitement. There has really been no work looking at the Border Collie syndrome yet so I cannot give you any good recommendations for treatment. I am attaching our information sheet on the Labrador EIC condition but I would be cautious extrapolating much to the Border Collie condition.

 

Just a note: selective cobalamin (vitamin B12) malabsorption has been reported in Border collies and seems to be prevalent in some of the same lines experiencing this exercise intolerance syndrome. It might be worth pursuing that as well. Good luck

 

 

 

Sue Taylor, DVM

[Journey]

Jeanne,

 

Glad you got such a quick response from Dr. Taylor, thanks for letting us know! More information at least!

 

Karen

[Miztiki]

Hi Jeanne,

 

I hope it's just the thyroid a bit off or something like that too. It would stink if you had to curtail her activities, especially if she enjoys working so much. Let's hope that won't happen!

 

Thanks for sharing what your vet said. That's interesting about the difference between Labs and BC's. I would describe Boy's movement as more stiff than loose and flaccid (except he's probably not a BC but he might well have some Lab in him). What about Bunny's gait?

 

I hope her appointment results in the best possible outcome. Please let us know!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, that's interesting from Dr. Taylor.

 

My Jen had problems with normal training pressure early on in her training - she'd experience something that looked like EIC but not to an extreme extent. And "choppy" is exactly how she'd look, then she'd "cool off" a bit and look downright wobbly. It got better as she learned we weren't going to kill her and working (including "playing" which for Border collies IS work, remember!) became more natural.

 

She had a close relative that was worse - he'd actually collapse during cool down. His level of excitement was much higher and he had a stubborn personality that brought on the need for more pressure, too. Nothing mean, you were just always having to pick at him as he'd rarely "give". His owner decided not to go on with training, though he did get better with time and as training got less intense.

 

Jen's mom June had a bit of the wobbly-butt syndrone too. She was about five the first time I saw it - but she hadn't been worked much before that. She has Jen's high-strung, "I gotta do it my way or it's gonna kill me" personality.

 

All of these happened in cool weather and their temps were normal. The owner of Jen's relative was a nurse and quite qualified to assess vital signs. All these incidents would happen when a new activity was being introduced and would lessen in incidence and severity as the activity became more familiar. Also, I've noticed as Jen learns other new things, the training affects her less and less - I actually haven't seen her wobble in a couple years.

 

I'd be really interested to hear more about this if anyone's got any information.

[Bill Fosher]

I have only seen about six cases of exertional hyperthermia in Border collies, including one in one of my dogs (for the first time when she was about four years old). All these cases were the result of working sheep in hot, humid conditions. In some cases, the dogs were what the owners called "very fit" but I would not have called them that. My words would have been "not badly overweight."

 

All the dogs involved went on to continue working. In my case, I was more careful with Bess on hot humid days (she's jet black, incidentally, which doesn't help) and worked gradually on getting her more fit.

 

Acclimitization is also important. If your dog lives with you in an air-conditioned house, it's going to have a hard time cooling itself. If you let your dog go to water all the time, it will also have a hard time cooling itself. Acclimatization is a gradual process; it takes a lot longer for the dogs to adjust to the weather than it does for the weather to change.

 

Diet and general health are also important. A high-fat, low-protein diet will give the dogs better reserves to draw on than a high-protein diet (such as is commonly used in field retrievers). The key organs in cooling the dog are the spleen, the heart, and the lungs. The spleen needs to release more blood when the animal is hot, the heart has to circulate it, and the lungs need to oxygenate it.

 

The weak femoral pulse makes perfect sense to me, because what's happening in exertional hyperthermia is that the body is starting to shut down. There's not enough blood to keep the core cool, so the supply to the limbs is redirected to the core, where it can be cooled via the toungue and blood vessel in the belly nearer the skin. I can't say that I've ever checked a femoral pulse on a wobbly dog, but I do know that the toungues have been dark, dark red -- almost purple -- in all the cases I've seen.

[muddy bob]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But it does seem that the dogs that are displaying this odd gait are experiencing something besides exertional hyperthermia. From my few minutes of searching articles, I didn't see anything about the gait, just overheated dogs. So if it's not EIC or exercised induced hyperthermia, then what the heck is it? I'd also like to know if it can be life threatening. For now, I will procede with caution.

 

Muddy

[Kerrigan]

Hi Bill & Rebecca ~

 

Thanks for the additional information regarding the exertional hyperthermia. Just curious, but how old were the dogs that you observed showing these symptoms?

 

Bill, your explanation regarding the weak femoral pulse makes perfect sense to me. Bunny's tongue was normal in color, but the vet did say that her gums were a bit dark.

 

My dogs do come in the house during the day at the hottest part - especially during the summer when we have constant high temps that can range from 100 to 110. Bunny isn't one to play in the wading pool or sprinkler like the other dogs, but we do have plenty of shade outside (it just isn't much cooler in the shade). I can try leaving her out longer and gradually increase the time, although I'll probably have to put sunscreen on her as she likes to lie out in the middle of the yard and sunbathe. However, last spring and summer Bunny worked in the same weather conditions and didn't have a problem. Her food hasn't changed either.

 

I currently feed Natural Balance which has a crude protein of 23% and a crude fat of 13%. How much more fat should she have in her diet to help? Any suggestions on what I can give her to increase the fat in her diet without changing foods? If that's not possible, any suggestions on a high quality food that would meet the criteria for the proper amount of fat and protein?

 

Bunny could actually use a bit more weight. She's bony and her muscles are hard. She runs constantly either with me, the other dogs, or by herself just for the sheer joy of it(I think she was a sight hound in a previous life

 

Rebecca ~ Bunny does tend to act more like a wild thing when I work her - she's definitely excited. When my trainer works her she's still very excited, but works in a more calm controlled manner. I'm sure its because she knows that my trainer knows more than I do about working stock I like working my own dog because I learn more that way, plus I just learned to trust Bunny when working stock - but maybe Bunny hasn't learned to trust me. However, if it well help with this issue, I'll ask my trainer to work her instead.

 

I will get her thyroid and the vitamin B-12 thing checked out with the vet though.

[Bill Fosher]

Weak hindquarters and a resulting odd gait are due to the blood being redirected away from the limbs and toward the core of the body, as the dog tries to cool the things that matter the most. I think that what I have seen in Border collies is not the same as EIC in labs.

 

It can be life threatening if the dog's temperature gets too high, but usually they will collapse before they get to that point. The issue is going to be how soon they can be cooled down and how much (if any) permanent damage is done before.

 

Anyway, a staggering or hobbling gait is often the symptom that people notice first in exertional hyperthermia. If you're paying close attention to a working dog, you'll notice a dulling of the mind and confusion before the legs start to sway, and that's the time to stop. In some cases the dog simply shuts down and doesn't want to listen. He may quit working, or simply turn his head away as if looking for something (probably a water tank.)

 

In my experience with dogs playing fetch, the mind is pretty dull anyway and the task is not particularly mentally challenging, so you might not notice it at the early stages.

[Kerrigan]

Bill ~

 

I don't know if you were replying to my post or or to someone elses.

 

If it was to me, I never said Bunny was playing fetch - she doesn't fetch anything as she doesn't see the point. I just said she runs a lot because she enjoys doing so whether its by herself, playing with the other dogs or with me. I've never seen her get the wobbly gait after running with the exception of last Saturday when she was out playing with Loki and last Thursday after working stock.

 

Last Saturday, I wasn't watching the dogs playing so I'm not sure how much running/wrestling, etc was going on. She became wobbly in the back end several minutes after she had come into the house. By wobbly I mean her gait was not normal in the rear - not that she was falling over. Nor was her gait what I would call staggering or hobbling. It was more like she was moving her whole rear side to side when walking (like a dog with HD might) rather than a normal stride. It's hard to describe, but it was how she was moving more than her ability to move if that makes sense.

 

Last Thursday, she was not wobbly, swaying, slowing down, acting confused or not paying attention, etc. WHILE working the stock. My trainer did not notice her acting odd while working either. Her movement became odd in the back end probably 7-10 minutes AFTER she had come out, gotten a drink and we had started to walk a bit to cool down. Her movement was not odd immediately after working.

 

After having a Lab get heat exhaustion many years ago when my DH was playing with her and seeing a couple of dogs get it at events, I have always been extra careful when playing or working with my dogs and watching for any signs of heat exhaustion or heat stroke.

 

Can someone please explain what the difference is between exertional hyperthermia and heat exhaustion or heat stroke? Is it one only occurs after exertion and the other can occur anytime? From what Bill is describing regarding the core temperature and the dog's body trying to cool that down first it sounds very much like heat exhaustion.

[muddy bob]

Bill,

I really don't know if you to are trying to be provocative with your dull mind statement. I don't know you and you don't know me or my dogs. If I choose to give my dogs a bit of physical activity before I go to work by letting them chase some object I don't see how that categorizes them as having dull minds. But really, your opinion is none of my business!

 

Muddy

[muddy bob]

Oh my, I do apologise Bill. I reread your post and realized my interpretation was a bit hasty.

 

Muddy

[muddy bob]

My dog returned to normal within such a short time on both occasions. And she was not panting hard. From what I've read it normally takes quite a while for these other dogs to cool down. I'm confused.

Rebecca, I liked what you said about play being work as I do find that to be true. ALWAYS being the one dog out of a pack to get the ball is indeed very hard work that requires concentration.

What were your dogs like afterward? How long would you say it took them to return to normal?

 

Muddy

[Tassie]

My trainer and I had dogs go 'wobbly' on the same (warm but not extremely hot) day last year. My pretty inexperienced dog was having trouble gathering a mob of weaned lambs - about 300 or so) in a fairly steep paddock. As Bill described, her mind went first - not able to take flanks, and then she started to wobble, and it was as if her legs couldn't take her 30lb weight. Luckily my trainer and her stockman were in the truck watching, so I was able to pick her up and get her cooled off pretty quickly, and she recovered well enough to resume working with some gentle work later on.

 

My trainer's more experienced dog displayed the same symptoms, again, doing a job that was rather stressful for her - luckily she too was near a stock tank and was able to be cooled off quickly.

 

In both cases, it seemed clear that it was stress and anxiety in relation to the job the dogs were trying to do, as much as the actual temperature, that contributed to the problem

[2 Devils]

OK - I found the article that Bill Fosher wrote (by mistake even). Anyways, I am copying it here and hopefully Bill will be able to save it going forward so we all can see it again. Bill sorry for just posting it without permission

 

Working in the Heat

By Bill Fosher

As the heat and humidity of another Northeast summer settles in, it's time for all of us to start thinking about how to ensure the well-being of our dogs, both on and off the trial field. Heat stress can cause lots of different problems for dogs, ranging from a lack of mental acuity to death. But with a little common sense and forethought, our dogs can continue to do the work they love ? and that we need them to do ? right through the summer.

Just as with humans, summer heat can take a toll on both the body and mind of a working dog. It's important to use good common sense, have the dog conditioned to heat, in good physical shape, healthy, and hydrated before you work on a hot summer's day.

Remember that dogs are essentially air-cooled. They can't reduce their body temperature by sweating the way we do. They rely on cooler air moving over their body and through their lungs, particularly as it crosses their tongues. As the air temperature approaches their body temperature (101 degrees or so) they cannot cool themselves by panting. They must get wet or find a cool spot to dissipate their body heat. This is one reason why dogs like to dig holes and lie in them in the summer. The soil just a few inches below the surface of the earth can be as much as five to 10 degrees cooler than the air.

Common sense measures

Pay attention to heat, humidity, and air movement. Very warm air won't cool your dog as well as cooler air. Moving air provides better cooling than still air, and dry air cools better than humid air. Also bear in mind that black coats heat up in the sun very quickly. If it's 75 degrees, still, and humid with full sun, a black dog in an open field can heat up very quickly even though the thermometer tells us the temperature is moderate. If there are air quality warnings for your area, take heed of them also. As air quality diminishes, your dog will have a harder time oxygenating his blood to keep his muscles and brain working right.

If you're out on a hot day, don't leave your dogs in the car or truck. Chain or crate them in the shade with access to clean drinking water, and check them regularly to make that they are still in the shade, and still have water. Putting an ice cube or two in their water can also help keep their body temperatures a bit lower.

On hot days, restrict your training sessions to early morning and evening, when temperatures are cooler. Keep training fun and keep the mental pressure lower on the hottest days, or skip training altogether. If you have farm work that needs to be done, do it during the cool hours ? it's easier on the stock, the dogs, and you.

Watch for signs of heat stress and quit before they reach dangerous levels. Every dog will show different signs, so you need to watch for things that are abnormal for your particular dog. Some common ones are a reduction in desire to work, sniffing the ground or eating grass and "smart pills" even though the work isn't that hard. A sharp curl at the end of the dog's tongue can also indicate mental stress. If the dog is panting hard enough that it interferes with his breathing, that's another sign that you need to let him cool off for a bit. In short, if your dog seems a bit "off," it's time to wind things down.

If your dog is staggering, you've got an emergency on your hands. Pick him up and carry him to cool water as quickly as possible and submerge him to lower his body temperature. It's most important to get his belly and legs into the water, since major veins and arteries are fairly close to the surface there, and the water will help dissipate heat from the dog's blood. Serious brain damage or death can follow extreme overheating.

Remember that these dogs are extremely stoic and focused on their work, often to their own detriment. Many will work until they drop. You have to take the responsibility for their welfare, because they will not stop unless you tell them to.

Conditioning

Dogs have a remarkable ability to acclimate to broad ranges of temperatures and humidity. If your dog lives in the air-conditioned house with you, it will be that much more difficult for him to work in the heat, simply because his body is accustomed to a lower temperature and humidity level. Consider kenneling him in the garage or barn, or under shady trees, where he can get used to outdoor temperatures without being baked by the sun. Make any change in his environment gradually ? a few hours a day at the most. Gradually increase exercise periods until your dog is capable of a full workout in moderately warm temperatures.

While it's important to keep your dog from overheating, you can also build up his ability to cool himself through gradual conditioning, so it's not a great idea to hose your dog down as soon as he pants. Under normal or moderate conditions, let him cool down on his own. In the long run, this will help him stay cooler longer when he's working, and will serve both you and your dog better.

Physical shape

Overweight dogs suffer more in the heat than lean ones. Keep your dogs trim and fit, particularly in the summer. That means the dog should carry virtually no subcutaneous fat. Individual ribs should be easy to feel, but not sharp. Your dog's heart and lungs should be healthy, and their strength should be built up gradually using non-working exercise such as running and walking.

Other health considerations

Some Border collies suffer from a medical condition called malignant hyperthermia, also known as "the wobbles" or "Border collie staggers." These dogs seem unable to dissipate heat. If your dog is unsteady on his feet, or seems to overheat rapidly or with little exertion, you should not work him until you've consulted with a knowledgeable veterinarian.

Dogs dissipate heat by increasing the rate of blood flow and pushing blood outwards to the tongue, legs, and feet, where there are lots of blood vessels close to the surface. The heart pumps blood faster when the dog is hot, and the spleen releases additional blood into the circulatory system to provide more circulating blood to dissipate the heat. If your dog's heart or spleen is defective or unhealthy, he won't be able to cool himself effectively.

If your dog seems to be the first one to quit, or has an especially hard time in hot weather, don't push it. Seek advice from your veterinarian.

Hydration

Dogs drink when they're thirsty, but they will not drink enough in advance of working to avoid dehydration. In the heat, everything that you can do to increase the amount of water a dog has in its system when it's working will reduce the likelihood of heat stress. This means both putting more water in and making sure that you don't require the dog to use any more water in its digestive process than necessary.

Most high-quality kibble has relatively low amounts of soluble fiber, but they all have some. This fiber draws water from the dog's digestive tract as it rehydrates. If you moisten the kibble gradually before feeding time so that the food is the consistency of oatmeal, the dog should not lose any water in the process of digesting the kibble.

Push fluids to your dog before you start working. Most dogs will readily drink two cups of water if you put a quarter cup of milk in it. If you do this two hours before work, your dog will have had time to assimilate the water and flush his kidneys, which will leave him better able to deal with the toxins that are released during exercise. Moreover, when his metabolic rate increases, he will have better reserves of water to keep the process going, providing the energy he needs to pump blood to his muscles, and to keep himself cool.

Cooling down

Most sheepdog trials provide a cooling tub at the end of the course. The idea is to give the dog a chance to lie down in some water. This dissipates the heat in their bloodstream faster than their tongues and pads could do it otherwise. When the dog gets out of the water, evaporative cooling continues the process.

If you work near streams, ponds, or lakes, your dog will probably be drawn to the water when he gets warm. The danger of letting him get into the habit of using a natural body of water to cool off is that you might not always know if the water at a trial site is safe. Use common sense and good judgment, and make sure you provide a cooling tub if you aren't going to let your dog jump in the stream after a hard workout.

The article copyright ? 2000 Bill Fosher. Please don't use it without permission.

[Rave]

I've known several BC's with this condition, including my own Wick (littermate to Jen, mentioned by Becca earlier in this thread). One of the dogs I know with this condition is owned by a vet and was put through a battery of tests to try to find a diagnosis, but none was found. I've had my holistic vet tell me dogs like this just "burn hot" and diet changes and supplements may help lessen the effects. I'll have to find that info and post it here. I'd be interested to hear if there was any research going on into this apparently common affliction in the breed. Oh, and BTW, Wick overheats like this when she's doing things she's done a million times, so with her at least, it's not stress. And she's in great shape, not working shape, but close to it.

[Barb Scott]

Miztiki!

GLAD YOU'RE BACK!!!!

Barb Scott