Things to get.

[LauraV]

I have changed my original post that caused the issue, and hopefully it doesn't cause a problem. My apologies with how it came across.

[LauraV]

Chene, I agree that it is a heated topic. I disagree with the AKC standards completely and think they are quite ridiculous to categorize the breed into a small box. I love how diverse the breed is and love how different they are. One of my border collies is 85% white, from an ABCA breeder, and that would NEVER fly with the AKC. But, he is 100% a border collie, from a breeder who works her dogs with sheep and cattle, never breeds her dogs for the money, etc. And I know that he is what the breed is meant to be.

[Roxadee]

Because this breed is a working breed do you think that my soon to be Grace will have a need to do a job like the one she and her ancestors have done for years? Will she want to herd? I have read that they will try to do this with other animals, small children ( I have NO children, small or otherwise. ) and my biggest fear, cars!! I will of course not allow Grace around any kind of traffic so her chasing cars isn't really an issue. I am wondering what I can do to satisfy her NEED to herd. I can't get livestock, I don't want livestock. I do want her happy so if there is a way to keep her herding instinct alive and well, I would be willing to do that. Any suggestions?

[gcv-border]

I am wondering what I can do to satisfy her NEED to herd.

Although you may have read this on other websites, border collies can adapt and do not NEED to herd - but they do want to partner with you and have a job. The job could be agility or nosework/tracking/air scenting (SAR dogs), picking up things for you, tricks, etc.

 

Regarding chasing cars: herding dogs are bred to react to motion. Cars, squirrels, deer, sheep, other dogs, etc. - when in motion - will trigger that reaction unless you have trained them to ignore it and pay attention to you. I think it was mentioned earlier, but the Control Unleashed book should be helpful in this regard.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Roxadee,

 

If, the very first time, she shows interest (goes on alert, crouches, trembles with excitement) at a passing car, you tell her "No" and pop her leash, you can nip this behavior in the bud. It's much easier to correct this behavior at the onset than retrain her after " fascinating car" has become a habit.

 

Donald McCaig

[Roxadee]

Dear Ms. Roxadee,

 

If, the very first time, she shows interest (goes on alert, crouches, trembles with excitement) at a passing car, you tell her "No" and pop her leash, you can nip this behavior in the bud. It's much easier to correct this behavior at the onset than retrain her after " fascinating car" has become a habit.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Sounds good to me,,,, now speaking of the leash, what kind of leash/collar should she get, I seen a leather one rather long, is that good? For training do I use a halter type or ????? I'm so confused. How do you pop the leash? Is there a video?

[GentleLake]

Remember, too, Roxadee, that your AKC pup -- essentially a different breed than a working bred border collie -- will probably have much less herding drive than a working bred pup. It's not a guarantee, of course, but that's definitely the direction they're headed.

 

That was one of the points of my earlier post.

 

And if she is too interested in cars and other moving objects, there are other methods besides popping a leash. You might consider redirection instead.

 

It seems to me that you don't have a lot of experience training dogs? Or at the very least you have a lot of insecurity around doing things right with this one? I'd suggest before she arrives you line up a good trainer to work with and perhaps enroll her in a puppy class to get off to a good start. Contact trainers and ask to observe a class or 2 to make sure you like the ways they train; there are a lot of training approaches and you should be comfortable with the methods whomever you'll be working with will use.

 

A trainer will also be able to recommend equipment based on your pup's specific needs.

[Roxadee]

It's the second one. It's with this pup. It's because she is a border collie and not just your average canine. I have trained all of my dogs to mind me they do excellently. I never whip my pet, never ever ever!!! always gentle reinforcement, works great. I had planned on clicker training this one only because the demands that will be placed on her will be greater and more challenging. Your advise to look into a trainer however still might be a good idea. I'm not real familiar with clicker training. The books that were suggested I get, will be bought. I'm really excited about this pup.

[GentleLake]

Well, there are border collies and there are border collies. . . . literally (referring you back to the chart*).

 

Again, I don't want to overgeneralize but I wouldn't expect an AKC border collie to be as challenging as one not bred for appearance. It's a related but at this point different breed of dog. The ones I've met I've thought of as border collie lite, just not having the intensity that most border collies have (not that I necessarily consider working bred border collies challenging, but many people do). So if you've successfully raised and trained other dogs I don't think you need to be so worried that you can't do well by this pup.

 

* I've located the chart from a study done in 2008. Here you go: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S28.full Border collies are the breed shown in red in the fan chart in Figure 2. "Show" bred border collies are shown in pink suggesting a "prominent divergence" from the original breed.

 

Also of interest may be this report discussing the genetic differentiation between show and working bred German Shepherd Dogs: http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html I don't see an exact date but it appears to have been around 2011-12.

 

ETA: Corrected so the links should work.

[Roxadee]

Truly fascinating!!!!! The last link wouldn't come up.

[GentleLake]

It didn't work for me when I just tried it either. I'm guessing because the period at the end of the sentence was included in the link.

 

I'll try posting it again. This is cut and pasted but no period at the end: http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html

 

Hope it works.

[chene]

Well, there are border collies and there are border collies. . . . literally (referring you back to the chart*).

 

Again, I don't want to overgeneralize but I wouldn't expect an AKC border collie to be as challenging as one not bred for appearance. It's a related but at this point different breed of dog. The ones I've met I've thought of as border collie lite, just not having the intensity that most border collies have (not that I necessarily consider working bred border collies challenging, but many people do). So if you've successfully raised and trained other dogs I don't think you need to be so worried that you can't do well by this pup.

 

* I've located the chart from a study done in 2008. Here you go: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S28.full Border collies are the breed shown in red in the fan chart in Figure 2. "Show" bred border collies are shown in pink suggesting a "prominent divergence" from the original breed.

 

Also of interest may be this report discussing the genetic differentiation between show and working bred German Shepherd Dogs: http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html. I don't see an exact date but it appears to have been around 2011-12.

 

Goodness, why haven't I seen these before? That's really interesting, thank you for sharing!

[Roxadee]

Amazing.

[D'Elle]

Gentle Lake, I was unable to get a chart to come up with the link. Would be very interested in seeing that, and showing it to people I know who think that I am a wild eyed fanatic when I say that the AKC border collie is a different breed from the working border collie.

 

To the OP: I am glad you decided to stick around here. You will find that this forum is an endless source of good information and strong support for you and your dog, regardless of your dog's breeding. Many of us here, myself included, did not understand the importance of breeding the border collie only for working ability until the kind people on this forum explained it. They took the time and energy to explain it thoroughly to me a few years back and I am grateful to them for it. Folks here can seem a bit harsh at times but it is just their passion for the breed that makes them sound that way. This is the best resource you will ever find for any and all things pertaining to border collies, and you will be glad you came here and stayed to learn more.

[mum24dog]

The only real difference between BCs and any other dog is the likely tendency to unwanted compulsive behaviour which should be discouraged. What you know about training will still stand you in good stead so don't approach getting this pup any differently.

 

Compulsive behaviour can be turned into a positive thing too if the compulsion is towards something you want.

 

And not all BCs chase things they shouldn't.

[chene]

Gentle Lake, I was unable to get a chart to come up with the link. Would be very interested in seeing that, and showing it to people I know who think that I am a wild eyed fanatic when I say that the AKC border collie is a different breed from the working border collie.

 

The link is just to the abstract. Click "Full Text" on the right for everything else.

[GentleLake]

Sorry. I don't know why it linked only to the abstract.

 

Trying again. The fan chart is Figure 2, about halfway down the page. http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S28.full

[D'Elle]

Got it - thanks!

I love having scientific evidence to support this, because many people have scoffed at me when I insist that the AKC "border collie" is a different breed, and should be called as such.

 

I found out not that long ago that the same thing happened to Jack Russel terriers, only in that case the AKC had to give them a different name. Wish that had happened with BCs. Now there are 3 breeds of terriers from that source: Jack Russel, Parson's Russel, and Parson's Terrier. I suppose that the only thing we could do is start calling border collies something else, but I would hate that. Real working border collies had the name first. So I am just waiting for the AKC to collapse, which perhaps some day it will, and perhaps what replaces it will be better. (I know, I am too optimistic.)

[Roxadee]

Another misfortune is the beloved Chihuahua.

[GentleLake]

Another misfortune is the beloved Chihuahua.

 

The list of breeds ruined by the ACK just goes on and on.

 

Though I don't really see the parallel between the dichotomy between working breeds and their non-working offshoots and Chis, which have always been companion dogs.

 

I can imagine there are now health problems with Chis and other breeds as a result of breeding for various fads, including increasingly smaller sizes. And while I agree it's terrible in it's own right, it's not the same thing as diluting the working ability of a breed for the whims of people who want to show them.

[chene]

The list of breeds ruined by the ACK just goes on and on.

 

Though I don't really see the parallel between the dichotomy between working breeds and their non-working offshoots and Chis, which have always been companion dogs.

 

I can imagine there are now health problems with Chis and other breeds as a result of breeding for various fads, including increasingly smaller sizes. And while I agree it's terrible in it's own right, it's not the same thing as diluting the working ability of a breed for the whims of people who want to show them.

 

I think anyone who has seen a healthy thriving breed destroyed by people exaggerating physical attributes with no regard for anything else understands what we're going through with border collies here. They are still diluting based off of stupid whims, they're just diluting different things. I don't know a thing about chihuahuas and I'm not saying they're the same, but plenty of dog breeds are. We're all losing something. I really appreciate that others can empathize with that.

[GentleLake]

I see your point, Chene.

 

But I'm making a distinction between physical/health problems as a result of breeding to an appearance standard and actually losing the function, IOW the very purpose and identity of a breed as a result of breeding to an appearance rather than a performance standard.

 

The latter's what's happening to border collies and other working breeds, but not to Chihuahuas and their ilk.

 

And so, no, I don't think everyone gets the difference. There are plenty of people bemoaning the health and structural problems in pure bred dogs who still haven't the slightest clue why we need to preserve the border collie as a working breed and not be breeding to to be a show or an all purpose breed.

[chene]

Fair enough. And it's much more clear cut in border collies, without a doubt. Their purpose is obvious. And them losing it is obvious. They were bred to herd. Now many can't herd. But I guess I see it as, even companion dogs were bred for a purpose - that is, to be companions. They were bred to be a certain way so they could be those companions. And as who they originally were became more and more distorted, yes, they could still be companions, but not the companions they were bred to be.

 

I'll be honest, I see the issue with border collies as much more severe as well. But at the same time, I've never had a chihuahua as a heart dog. I've never adored a dog so much only to see it overheat if it spends more than 5 minutes in the sun, or unable to keep up with me because its legs are half the size they should be, or struggle to breathe when it runs too fast to come find me. I've never had a dog that died ten years before it was supposed to because some moron thought it would be fun to give it an extra 50lbs or a squished up snout. So many dogs can't fulfill their purpose anymore, even if their purpose isn't as practical as a border collie's. So I have to try to empathize with those people, too. It may just be more of a personal thing.

[chene]

And so, no, I don't think everyone gets the difference. There are plenty of people bemoaning the health and structural problems in pure bred dogs who still haven't the slightest clue why we need to preserve the border collie as a working breed and not be breeding to to be a show or an all purpose breed.

 

While I don't think everyone who understands breed health problems understands the destruction of the working border collie, I DO think that anyone who is drawing parallels between the two does get it.

[GentleLake]

Oh, I definitely empathize with the heartbreak of people with the mutant dogs.

 

I just argue that there are two distinct forms of maladaption going on, one physical/health related and the other behavioral/instinctual/purpose.