Things to get.

[Roxadee]

Solo33- I would just love to post my videos of Grace......I don't know how???? Help! She is on "windyridgefarms.simplesite.com. She is grey and white. I knew the moment I seen her she was the one! She is all over the place. The last video she is raising a ruckus growling and barking, my my my what have I got myself into!!!! LOL.

I really do wish I knew how to post from there to here, anyone know?

Your dog is absolutely gorgeous! If your like me and everyone else on here, I am sure you look at these pictures over 2 dozen times a day! Don't blame you a bit. I have worn everyone out over Grace, I am in fact becoming the least favorite person in Leavenworth.

[LauraV]

No way! I've been watching those videos on Gracie and her litter for weeks not knowing that Gracie was your Gracie! How funny! She is a strong little girl with lots of spunk!

[Roxadee]

LauraV- That is amazing! She is full of something alright. LOL. She is adorable to me of course. Do you think the growling and barking is a sign? I can't wait to see her in person. She lives almost 3 hours away from me. It's probably a good thing,lol.

[Roxadee]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gZncTzTZg8s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

I think this is how to get you to see Grace. I googled embed and wa-la.

[GentleLake]

Cute pups.

 

I see that this is an AKC breeder, so your pup may behave a little differently than a working bred pup. There have been threads here with charts showing how AKC "border collies" are as genetically distinct from other border collies as to be considered a different breed.

 

So I'd expect your dog could have somewhat less drive and need for exercise than a dog from ABCA, the working registry. Hard to predict for sure as there could still be some throwback, but the AKC dogs have been bred with different criteria than the working border collies have been and so it's resulting in a different kind of dog.

 

You may be interested in searching the archives for discussions about this, including the Dog Wars of the 1980s and early '90s. (Search "dog wars" here and/or look for Donald McCaig's excellent book by the same name online or in your library.)

[Solo33]

Solo33- I would just love to post my videos of Grace......I don't know how???? Help! She is on "windyridgefarms.simplesite.com. She is grey and white. I knew the moment I seen her she was the one! She is all over the place. The last video she is raising a ruckus growling and barking, my my my what have I got myself into!!!! LOL.

I really do wish I knew how to post from there to here, anyone know?

Your dog is absolutely gorgeous! If your like me and everyone else on here, I am sure you look at these pictures over 2 dozen times a day! Don't blame you a bit. I have worn everyone out over Grace, I am in fact becoming the least favorite person in Leavenworth.

 

I viewed the video where she's barking. She's adorable! I haven't heard mine bark yet. He's a little more quiet, but I've heard him growl when he wrestles with his siblings. And yes I look at his pictures a lot!

[chene]

Cute pups.

 

I see that this is an AKC breeder, so your pup may behave a little differently than a working bred pup. There have been threads here with charts showing how AKC "border collies" are as genetically distinct from other border collies to be considered a different breed.

 

So I'd expect your dog could have somewhat less drive and need for exercise as a dog from ABCA, the working registry. Hard to predict for sure as there could still be some throwback, but the AKC dogs have been bred with different criteria than the working border collies have been and so it's resulting in a different kind of dog.

 

You may be interested in searching the archives for discussions about this, including the Dog Wars of the 1980s and early '90s. (Search "dog wars" here and/or look for Donald McCaig's excellent book by the same name online or in your library.)

 

I hate when this happens. That was very nicely put GentleLake.

Roxadee, I would suggest you read this: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=6

[GentleLake]

Within that link can be found this history and rationale for purchasing solely from working border collie breeders: http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/culture.html

 

It's definitely worth reading.

[Roxadee]

I can't tell you how helpful this has been!!! Your all amazingly kind and informative. Thank you so very very much. I'm going to check out those links now .

[mum24dog]

Hi Roxadee

 

You seem to be taking comments about your choice of breeder in good part, which is great. Noone is suggesting that your pup may not be a perfect dog for you.

 

A lot of people arriving on these boards didn't get their dog from a working breeder. You are as welcome as anyone else here and if you stick around, as we hope you will, you may find that your ideas of the breed may change.

 

You're just starting out on the journey and who knows where it will lead?

[Roxadee]

mum24dog-Thank you for the kind words.

[LauraV]

Roxadee, she takes wonderful care of the puppies. Both the parents of Gracie are agility dogs/working live stock, and very well taken care of. I have been watching the puppy videos for weeks.

[chene]

Roxadee, I for one, would definitely consider that breeder if I was to ever get another puppy. From what I see, she takes wonderful care of the puppies. Both the parents of Gracie are agility dogs and very well taken care of. Nothing wrong with the breeder IMO, thus why I have been watching the puppy videos for weeks.

 

Oof. These boards advocate breeding for working ability, by which border collies have been defined for a long time, and the reason they are who they are. Breeding for any different standard (and the AKC does have a different standard) produces a different dog.

 

You are not going to have an easy time on these boards if you support AKC breeders. It's a bit like going to a Democrat forum and telling them there's nothing wrong with Republicans. It's great that you're into politics (or in this case, border collies) but your viewpoint is incompatible with the core values of the forum.

[Roxadee]

I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I looked up this site saying only Border Collie discussions. I see now that you don't want to have any discussion with anyone other than a USBCC member. My mistake. For all of the other people who love BC in the way I do, god bless you. Goodbye.

[chene]

I wasn't referring to you, and no, no one's been offended, don't worry. We're happy to have anyone here, and to discuss with anyone about border collies. And no one is saying you can't go around saying how great AKC breeders are. You're just going to get a lot of people telling you why they think you're wrong. C'est la vie. If you keep an open mind and read some of the resources we have, you might even see what we're talking about. People tend to, once they educate themselves on the topic. Most of us started out with no idea about the problems the AKC posed, myself included.

[alligande]

I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I looked up this site saying only Border Collie discussions. I see now that you don't want to have any discussion with anyone other than a USBCC member. My mistake. For all of the other people who love BC in the way I do, god bless you. Goodbye.

Please don't leave, you will learn an invaluable amount of info about border collies from some very experienced people, many people on these boards do not have working dogs, they came from rescues, backyard breeders, AKC breeders, but one of the missions of this board is to promote the breeding of border collies who are talented workers not because they are cute.

So please stay around, read past posts and understand why people on these boards are passionate about the subject ... It is the only thing that gets heated round here. Maybe you will think we are all nuts and move on, maybe you will hang around, but at least you will know it's not personal.

[teresaserrano]

Roxadee, Chene wasn't refering to you in her comment. And anyway, no matter how these boards feel about the breeding of bc's, everyone here is happy to welcome everyone else and these kind of comments aren't meant to mean someone thinks a specific pup is no good.

 

I didn't get Tess from a reputable breeder. And the funny thing is I thought I did. In spite of having read a lot about the breed beforehand, I didn't really know much about bc's. I knew I wanted a dog from working lines, so I went with a pup from a shepherd who worked her parents. But afterwards I found these forums, and more importantly to the case at hand I met the very small comunnity of portuguese fanciers of dog herding. And by their guarded and kind comments I've come to realize that Tess's parents are not good examples of working dogs that should be breeding stock.

 

So for my next pup I'm going to be more carefull about where I get him from. But this doesn't change the fact that Tess is an amazing dog, just perfect for me, and the most awsome dog I've ever had the priviledge to share my life with. And at the end of it, that's what really matters.

 

So don't disapear on us. I know this is where I've learned a lot of very important stuff about bc's, and keep learning. And once I understood what they where talking about, I've come to realize that yes, it's fundamental to breed bc's for their working ability if one wants to keep all their extraordinary qualities. Otherwise, they will stop being bc's. with all those extraordinary qualities, pretty soon. But I still wouldn't trade Tess for any other dog in the world, because she is my hearth dog, and also because this thinking doesn't relate to our personal dogs as individuals, but to the future of the breed as a whole. Tess may not be the best example of thoughtfull bc breeding, and I sure want to suport thoughtfull bc breeding from now on (because I love the breed and want it to not be watered down and turned into someting else), but it doesn't make her, specifically, a "bad" dog. She is actualy my pride and joy, the best dog ever. For me anyways As I'm sure your pup will be for you.

 

(You can tell I'm in love with her, can't you? I've always loved my dogs, but this little girl is something else. )

[mum24dog]

Roxadee, I for one, would definitely consider that breeder if I was to ever get another puppy. From what I see, she takes wonderful care of the puppies. Both the parents of Gracie are agility dogs and very well taken care of. Nothing wrong with the breeder IMO, thus why I have been watching the puppy videos for weeks.

The breeder in question may indeed be an excellent dog breeder but the issue is that she is not breeding true border collies, which should be bred for working ability not sport or conformation. In North America most people don't get to compare working dogs with those bred for other purposes so don't appreciate how different they can be.

 

The major part of my life involves agility but I would never have bought a pup from someone breeding for the sport.

 

If you haven't already done so, do read the links posted above.

[gcv-border]

It is your decision if you wish to continue reading and/or participate in these boards, but IMHO, if one doesn't expose themselves to alternative points of view, one doesn't grow.

 

Put me in the camp of those that purchased their first BC from a 'disreputable breeder' - although this breeder also did health tests, socialized extremely well, considered good temperament in her breeding decisions, bred dogs 'from working lines', gave health guarantees, etc. About a year after purchasing my dog, I discovered these Boards. Gradually, over a couple of years (OK, maybe I am a little slow, but I am also cynical), I have come to believe in the passion of these Boards. In other words, I have drunk the Kool-aid.

 

Just because you (the general you) have a dog from a breeder that does not work and breed 'true' working dogs, doesn't mean that you will be castigated. Regardless of the dog and which breeder it comes from, we all love to see puppy pics, will try to help with behavioral problems or physical problems, and give advice on training. But when it comes to the breeding of border collies, the Board is passionate about keeping the working dog intact.

 

I think the point below is very important (emphasis mine):

...because this thinking doesn't relate to our personal dogs as individuals, but to the future of the breed as a whole.

[chene]

...because this thinking doesn't relate to our personal dogs as individuals, but to the future of the breed as a whole.

 

I love this.

[Roxadee]

Thank you all for speaking with me. How could I leave a people so devoted to BC's. I have much to learn and learn I will. I did go to those links and might I add.....WOW who knew??? I'm one of so many people who have no idea what is going on in the world of BC's. You all are passionate about this subject, for good reason!!. I do tend to get my feelings hurt however unintentional, it was my bad, and I apologize. You were trying to educate me not spank me. Please continue to help me grow and I will get thicker skin, lol. I will keep reading up on this subject. I agree with the USBCC for what I know about it. and I hope to shine the light on anyone else who intends to purchase a BC.

[LauraV]

Chene, I have only gotten BCs from abca breeders. I was just saying, IMO she isn't a bad person getting a dog from an AKC breeder. Overall, the breeder in general takes good care of her dogs. That's all I was referring to.

[LauraV]

I just didn't want her to feel bad going with an AKC breeder. Like I just mentioned, my bc is from ABCA and working stock. I don't support people going with a generalized look of a dog and I for one love the diversity of the breed (I've recently posted a thread about this).

[chene]

I just didn't want her to feel bad going with an AKC breeder. Like I just mentioned, my bc is from ABCA and working stock. I don't support people going with a generalized look of a dog and I for one love the diversity of the breed (I've recently posted a thread about this). Jeez, one comment and people go crazy and think I'm crazy...

 

The problem with this board is that the vast majority of readers are silent. You may think you're just telling one person that their AKC breeder was a good breeder, but in reality you are telling hundreds of future readers that that's a good breeder. I'm sorry you feel attacked. But the stance of these boards is quite clear. And it is completely possible to help someone feel okay about their decision while still guiding them to make a different choice in the future. In fact it's very important that we do. Gentlelake did a great job of it with that first response. But blindly praising a breeder who is going against border collies' very identity is not going to get us far.

 

(People have not gone crazy. Only two of us even responded to you, both politely and neither of us mentioning anything but the words. Again, compare it to politics. The response here has actually been quite gentle compared to what it can be...It's a heated topic.)

[LauraV]

Mum24dog I feel bad that people are not understanding what I'm trying to say. I am not telling people to get an AKC dog. I realize the way I first said it said I would get one from her. I was meaning the type of person as in how she takes care of her puppies. If she was an ABCA breeder, I would love to get video updates and video updates of the parents. I for one like to go meet the parents and see how they are taken care of. Sorry if I misspoke.