GentleLake Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I have a friend who has three English Shepherds. Dunno if it's characteristic of the breed or not, but 2 of them are very antsy dogs who get upset easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 . And of course that begs the questions: Why create dogs that have traits that are completely impractical at best and perhaps life (or quality of life) threatening at worst? And yet this is what the show system creates and perpetuates. Companion breeds with ridiculously extreme coats are one of my pet peeves. Many of them breed for a lot of coat which allows very young dogs to "finish" and by the time they are 5 they are so heavy coated that grooming is an ordeal. If the idea is to breed a dog whose very definition is lap dog/companion, its unethical to make them so ridiculously hairy that an average pet owner can't maintain them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 RemsMom, the one dog in the pic is a collie and the other is a sheltie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Maja, I hope things are better in Europe, but here, few of the show bred dogs have any real athletic ability. The gait is exaggerated with straight shoulders so they keep their head up and overly/improper angulation in the rear giving them inefficient gait . . A dog which has the agile-ness and movement to work tirelessly all day long would look odd compared to the head up high stepping dogs in the ring. I didn't intend to sound like I am defending shows, and I agree with you. Just pointed out that the shaggy working variety when groomed right may pass unnoticed in the show ring. I know enough about grooming to know that with various tricks you can take a normal rough coat look like that. Same with people: put you all through the gauntlet of beautician, hair-stylist, wardrobe assistant, and other what-have-yous, and nobody could tell you were all hardy shepherds . That does not change the fact that people breed for abundant coat. A person can tell a pronounced stop and a square head from looking at the dog, but one rarely can tell the bone structure, the muscle tone or the real proportions by just looking at dog groomed to perfection. Even the length of the legs can be very deceiving if you fluff up the underbelly. The coat is something that really gets my dander up, because a dog that sheds well in the summer is evaluated as having their "coat in poor condition" instead of eg. "coat in excellent summer condition". It's just plain sick when I would go into the ring with my berner in the summer who is bouncy and full of energy, muscle on her like you wouldn't believe, partly because she sheds all her undercoat in April, and she finishes last, because her coat is in "poor condition" while the rest are dragged about the ring, on the verge of cardiac arrest, because in July they have a full undercoat. Sheesh. I went to shows because my first border collies were KC and they are required to have 3 shows for the breeding license. I went once with Darine (who is dual reg.) to a show and didn't show her. I realized I couldn't stand any more disparaging comments about my dogs to get a breeding license (which is the the Polish KC regulations). [Note: in Europe there some good judges, and there are also many dogs that enjoy good show success and that are athletic and with a build of a good working BC including those from working lines whose abilities have not been compromised.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 RemsMom, the one dog in the pic is a collie and the other is a sheltie. The second dog is definitely a rough collie and not a sheltie. (Former sheltie person. The head type, proportions are wrong for a sheltie) It does however, not look like an 'AKC' show collie but looks like a european show type collie. They have a ton more coat over seas and very different head type than they are breeding for in the US/Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 We have a rough collie just started agility with us and she looks more like Lassie than the show version, although being a bitch she is smaller. Ironically she is 100 per cent show bred and her sire is an exaggerated North American import. Pretty normal in behaviour for an RC too. Can't say I've ever heard anyone refer to æ Scotch Collie here n the UK and æ farm collie to us is just a collie that lives on a farm, not a type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 The second dog is definitely a rough collie and not a sheltie. (Former sheltie person. The head type, proportions are wrong for a sheltie) You're right my bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 A person can tell a pronounced stop and a square head from looking at the dog, but one rarely can tell the bone structure, the muscle tone or the real proportions by just looking at dog groomed to perfection. Even the length of the legs can be very deceiving if you fluff up the underbelly. Isn't this why the judges put their hands on the dogs so that they can feel the structure beneath the coat, even if they've been groomed to mask faults? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 The second dog is definitely a rough collie and not a sheltie. (Former sheltie person. The head type, proportions are wrong for a sheltie) It does however, not look like an 'AKC' show collie but looks like a european show type collie. They have a ton more coat over seas and very different head type than they are breeding for in the US/Canada. My mistake! You have a good eye. It is a collie from Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Isn't this why the judges put their hands on the dogs so that they can feel the structure beneath the coat, even if they've been groomed to mask faults? Yes, they do of course, I was only referring to making statements like "I saw" or to showing pictures to make the point that that it is possible to present a perfectly groomed working dog of the shaggy type and the judge won't know any better. And the onlookers won't know any better either. Smooth coats are however total show losers, because there is no show variety for smooth coated BCs, so it is a dead give away, and they require a sympathetic judge to get a license. Which shows how ridiculous this is because if a smooth coat has a nice structure it is shown in full glory, and all its "faults" are visible a mile off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 RemsMom, the one dog in the pic is a collie and the other is a sheltie. The Lassie picture is indeed a Collie. The 3rd one, I believe. The lower picture is a Collie too. He is from the Pelido Kennels in Britain and his name is Ch. Licensed to Thrill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Yes, I already admitted "my bad", thank you for keeping me straight . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Companion breeds with ridiculously extreme coats are one of my pet peeves. Many of them breed for a lot of coat which allows very young dogs to "finish" and by the time they are 5 they are so heavy coated that grooming is an ordeal. If the idea is to breed a dog whose very definition is lap dog/companion, its unethical to make them so ridiculously hairy that an average pet owner can't maintain them. That is one of my pet peeves as well. But I don't think that the average pet owner can't maintain them, they just don't. I have a small fluffy white dog (probably a coton mix) and keeping him well groomed is a daily job. I like doing it so it is not a problem for me, and really it doesn't take that much time. Ten minutes a day, tops, and a full bath and grooming every 6 weeks or so. I bought the clippers and other things I need and taught myself how to groom him from YouTube videos. Anyone could do that. But I hate...I mean *hate* how many dogs of his general type I see who are dirty and matted and un-groomed. It is neglect and cruelty to allow them to get matted. It doesn't take much sense to realize that if you take on an adorable little fluffy puppy you are also taking on daily grooming, but of course people don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 That is one of my pet peeves as well. But I don't think that the average pet owner can't maintain them, they just don't. I have a small fluffy white dog (probably a coton mix) and keeping him well groomed is a daily job. I like doing it so it is not a problem for me, and really it doesn't take that much time. Ten minutes a day, tops, and a full bath and grooming every 6 weeks or so. I bought the clippers and other things I need and taught myself how to groom him from YouTube videos. Anyone could do that. But I hate...I mean *hate* how many dogs of his general type I see who are dirty and matted and un-groomed. It is neglect and cruelty to allow them to get matted. It doesn't take much sense to realize that if you take on an adorable little fluffy puppy you are also taking on daily grooming, but of course people don't think. You are right. I was thinking more about the types that shouldn't need extensive or daily maintenance (like my Papillons, for example) who end up needing it because their coat blows up. My old Harley had a coat like that, when he got to be about 10 he turned into a black and white mini Yak. When he hurt his back, he had to be crated a lot as he healed and he developed atrocious mats very quickly and hated us having to handle and brush him. I ended up clippering him down as he aged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Yes, I already admitted "my bad", thank you for keeping me straight . You not bad! I'm just familiar with the particularly off-putting output of that kennel. My least-favorite and freakiest type of Collie. I cringe when I see them. No wonder you didn't think it was a Collie. It's hideous! The amount of coat is definitely reminiscent of the hot-house Shetland Sheepdogs in the breed ring. Bleah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Speaking of shelties my local agility club held a trial in the dog days of summer, I'm talking 110 F in the heat of the day. here is one 'show sheltie' who is supposedly high ranked in the local kennel club and the owner was running it in the heat of the day. That poor dog was in full show coat and ran over two jumps before it laid down and refused to run anymore. The owner was very upset with the dog, but I don't blame the poor dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Of course she was upset with the dog. She couldn't see past her own ego to see that she was endangering the darn thing. What a moron. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmycash Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 We breed and train hunting labrador retrievers. I am constantly appalled by the "labs" that I see that look like they've had their legs chopped off and a concrete block for a head. How people prefer this, I'll never understand. They are capable of running one of two marks. Then they have to stop to keep from collapsing. They can't run and a lot of them hate water. Yea, great candidate for a gun dog right there. I had a client last year that brought us his dog to train for waterfowl work. It looked like a pit bull\mastiff with short legs. It was also 20lbs overweight. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard "He's an english type. He's supposed to look like that"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmycash Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Compare the photos of my female, Rocket, to the "english" lab. Rocket has a pedigree full of field trial champions. Her grandmother was a dual American and Canadian field trial champion. Her grandfather was a nationals finalist. And yet my girl is confused for a mutt. Does it look like that dog could half of what she can do? Laughable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 When I was a teenager we inherited an AKC-registered Lab. He was a terrific pet -- friendliest, best-natured dog I've ever met. But he was well over 100 lbs even if he wasn't overweight (my mom chronically overfed all of our animals) and he was just huge and blocky (although I'm happy to say, not quite as appalling as the example you posted). We had friends who brought their field-bred Labs over to train in our field on a regular basis, and the difference was incredible. You wouldn't have guessed they were the same breed. I loved our Liam, but their working Labs were just beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Rocket is beautiful! I would take her any day. [i have a pond she can jump into - ] I thought the American labs were bad enough. I did not realize what they had done to the English 'variety'. Blech! (I just read TXmom response. I think her descriptor is perfect - appalling.) One of my agility friends has an awesome working bred lab. I have always loved that dog. She just got another puppy from a South Carolina kennel. (She told me the kennel name, but I have forgotten it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 One of my agility friends has an awesome working bred lab. I have always loved that dog. She just got another puppy from a South Carolina kennel. (She told me the kennel name, but I have forgotten it.) I am just here to say I LOVE her dogs. They are wonderfully athletic and still sweet, sweet, sweet. They actually made me like labs again after spending quite a while going "ergh, no." The same thing happened with some of the goldens floating around agility, though less so (they're just too big for me). That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Sekah, just missed your post earlier. While AKC likes to say breed clubs make the standards, the AKC has final say. that was the gist of the "Dog Wars". I know for a fact that there were at least 2 clubs wanting some proof of 'work' (meaning stock work) before a dog could earn it's CH in AKC shows. The first group wanted a situation similar to that in the UK at the time. A 200 year fetch, 75 yard drive and pen with a good score (forget the actual numbers) from a recognized judge of sheepdog trials. The AKC refused this standard. Another group came along and wanted an 'instinct' test. AKc refused them too and went with a group that only wanted fluffy cookie cutter dogs. So much for AKC allowing breed clubs to set the standards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I just wanted to say seeing all of these weird dogs makes me so greatful that I live in and area that offers me the working versions of Labs and BCs. However my stepdad continues to argue with me that my working bred cow dog border collie Lily will not be able to herd better on instinct and catch on faster than his overweight ACK GSDs. His reasoning is that I've trained her for agility so she lost all instincts to herd when I chose to do a sport over herding, which just watching her is obviously not true... The GSDs couldn't herd anything if their life depended on it. >.< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmycash Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 gcv-border, you can't have her lol. I'd have a hundred if they were all like her. I adored her grandfather. She's something. This is what she does when I use small bumpers during pile work. She comes back with two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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