border aggression to teen age granddaughter

[patriciag]

Okay, my husband wants to go the whole way with Logan. He is being neutered tomorrow. We have an appt with the animal behaviorist on the 18th of February. Logan has been good, but my niece came over yesterday to deliver fruit. She knocked and he went into barking ferociously. My husband restrained him by his collar. My niece was not afraid to enter house and "help" us by standing there while we talked to him. He tried to lunge toward her and he was stopped physically. We kept telling him NO. We got him a treat and told him to stay, talking to him and hiding him from her by standing in front of him. He was still growling. We leashed him and let him smell her hand. Then she gave him a treat and he took it, but then moved away and laid down, and growled. My husband calmed him by petting him and rubbing his back, ears, belly. We sat and talked for about 10 minutes and Logan behaved, although he was still keeping an eye on us.

 

Then husband took him out back and played ball with him. When niece left, he walked Logan to her car. Logan smelled her hand. We never had her pet him, but she did talk to him.

 

If the behaviorist training does not work, we will put Logan down. At that point we will have done everything we can. He is such a happy boy most of the time.

 

That's it for now.

 

Pat

[jvw]

Sounds like you have a plan. It will be interesting to see what the behaviorist has to say. Good luck to you! Logan is very lucky to have found some owners who truly care for him and are willing to do all they can for him. But be sure to remember that in the end if you do end up euthanizing recognize that does not mean you failed.

[Gloria Atwater]

Wishing you the very best of luck. Bless you for trying so hard. Keep us posted and know that we are thinking of you and Logan.

~ Gloria

[G. Festerling]

And who knows, maybe, just maybe you will end up with a cool dog. Try to keep your ears to the ground and your eyes open. But try to control your apprehension and concerns. You never know.

[alligande]

Wishing all of you the best.

[cwb3]

Hoping and praying for you and yours as well!

[GentleLake]

Wishing you a successful journey with Logan.

 

Whatever happens in the end, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you've given him all that you can, and that whatever decisions you make are the right ones.

 

Best of luck.

[patriciag]

Thanks for all the posts. Logan is at the vet and I am sure they will tell us to keep him quiet for a few days. He has to wear the "dreaded cone of shame". I have NEVER had any luck with that contraption. Any suggestions for keeping a BC quiet and alternatives to the "cone" will be appreciated. When I had Ruger the mini aussie neutered, I ended up putting doggie diapers on him. Worked great. He didn't care. Something tells me Logan won't appreciate me putting Depends on his butt.

 

He was much better last night when renter came over to pay the rent. We were prepared. Leash at the ready, door locked so he couldn't knock and come in. Told renter in advance. Logan reacted, but not as bad as times before. We talked to him, got firm in our voice, had treats ready and when he listened, praised and gave him treats. I put the other two in the bedroom beforehand. He calmed down. Marvin pet him and rubbed his belly. At one point he leaned against Marvin and kind of buried his head in Marvin's leg. It was a start. I have no idea if we handled it correctly, but until we get to the behaviorist, we have to work with what we have. Too much information and different tactics, so we are hoping for a plan and specifics from the behaviorist.

 

We also bought a nylon muzzle for him to put on for vet visits and "situations". It is not a solution, but an aid. Silly dog just sticks his nose in it and wags his tail. (I wonder if this might be the way to work with him around granddaughter???) He really is a clown. I saw a video on someone's website from here dropping socks into a basket. I am teaching Logan to put his inside toys in a basket. He isn't learning that as quickly as some of the commands, but I'm new at pet tricks, so we work on it every day. I know she used treats, but with the other two doggies watching, it's a bit confusing and I hate to keep locking them in the bedroom when we play. He really wants to play with the dogs. They are getting better with him.

 

Will post later when I see more improvement. Hopefully no more episodes.

[GentleLake]

You have a crate for Logan, right? Use it for the first few days at least when he should have restricted activity.

 

I know it's hard for a young border collie, but it's for his own good. I had to crate a young BC for 4 months in an effort to avoid surgery for a herniated disk. It was hard on him, but it worked. He recovered without the need for surgery.

 

It may be difficult for a couple of days, but Logan will survive.

[patriciag]

crating him caused a big issue the 2nd night we had him. He would lie in it, but when I tried to shut the door he attacked the door. Since he has been locked in a shed for long periods of time in his past life, I don' want to bring up those bad memories now. I hope if the rehab is successful, then we can work on crate training in the future. We may never be able to enclose this dog in a crate.

 

Thanks, though, because it would be a good solution.

[GentleLake]

Do you have something that you could block off a small space for him then? Like the idea of an exercise pen?

 

Or will he stay in one small room, like a bathroom or a bedroom, without being destructive?

 

I suppose the other alternative would be to tether him to something in the house so that his movement is restricted . . .

 

Good luck.

[patriciag]

Good idea. We could use our exercise pen we use for travel. He is not destructive. I hope to spend most of the time with him so he does not think he is being punished. We will shut dog door so he does not have access to back yard without us.

[Sue R]

I love hearing the positives and also how you read advice, give it a try, try to figure things out, and just keep on doing your best to make if work for all concerned.

 

If he's good with the muzzle, that could be a very positive thing. I know someone with a very grippy young stockdog who finally tried a basket muzzle on him. When the youngster realized that he could not rely on his teeth, he started to use his mind to think more. This could help Logan move from reacting *without thought* with his teeth to *thinking* when presented with certain situations.

 

You might try this - we have sometimes attached an x-pen to a crate for longer-term use (new puppy or dog recovering from surgery). Do it in a way that you can clip the crate gate open (either to the inside of the crate if it's wired that way or to a section of the x-pen so that it can't swing shut on him. And put something comfy inside the crate so that if he chooses to go in there, he can be comfy but not confined.

 

What our dog and pup did with this set-up was to view the crate as a cozy den but not a cage, and so they were comfy using it (or the x-pen) as they wanted. It might work for you, and also get him accustomed to feeling more relaxed at the crate.

 

Very best wishes!

[GentleLake]

That sounds great. For the first day or two, you might want to only use a portion of the ex-pen, so that he;s really pretty restricted. Then you can open it up more as he begins to heal.

 

Sue's suggestions, both for the ex-pen/crate combo and the basket muzzle, are great. And I second her on your willingness to make accommodations for Logan as you try to work through his issues.

 

I've found small bungie cords useful to secure crate gates in an open position.

[jvw]

Normally I would say CONE CONE CONE. Just deal with it. Short term annoyance is WAY better than the problems you get if you do not use the cone.

 

But in Logan's case this may make him more aggressive.

 

You will have to watch him 100% of the time 24/7. If he messes with the area you will end up with a much bigger problem.

[G. Festerling]

Just curious....when you say nylon muzzle, you are not talking the ones they use at the vet are you?

If so, I would suggest you change into a basket muzzle like the dogs wear on the race track. Just a thought.

[GentleLake]

You might also ask the vet id she or he has any of the inflatable collars they're using now instead of cones. They'll often loan or rent them to you.

 

Pet stores carry them, as well.

[Camden's Mom]

He was much better last night when renter came over to pay the rent. We were prepared. Leash at the ready, door locked so he couldn't knock and come in. Told renter in advance. Logan reacted, but not as bad as times before. We talked to him, got firm in our voice, had treats ready and when he listened, praised and gave him treats. I put the other two in the bedroom beforehand. He calmed down. Marvin pet him and rubbed his belly. At one point he leaned against Marvin and kind of buried his head in Marvin's leg. It was a start. I have no idea if we handled it correctly, but until we get to the behaviorist, we have to work with what we have. Too much information and different tactics, so we are hoping for a plan and specifics from the behaviorist.

 

I just wanted to comment that this all sounds really good! From start to finish it sounds like you handled the visit from your renter very well. I know you've gotten advice from many people on the boards plus the at home consult with the trainer (who, by the way, from your description seemed to give you good advice). It must feel overwhelming, but clearly you have given it lots of thought and you seem to be implementing tactics that work. So glad to hear Logan didn't react as badly as in other situations and was even able to relax and calm down.

 

I'm not saying it's fix, but it certainly sounds to me like an improvement. I wish you all the best on your consult with UCDavis and on his recovery from the neuter. Bless you for all you have done for this dog, no matter what ends up happening down the road.

[Tommy Coyote]

I used to take care of a springer spaniel that hated men. She would attack without provocation - and it was a serious attack. Her owners put up with that for 12 years and she never got any better. They had to keep her in her crate in the basement whenever there was anyone in the house. I am not aware of any reason that dog hated men. She just did. She was also very dog aggressive.

 

Owning a dog shouldn't be a huge burden. They are so much fun to have. But owning a dog with a serious temperment problem is not fun and it can seriously impact your life.

 

There are so many really nice dogs out there that need good homes.

[Blackdawgs]

I have not read the whole thread. Please excuse me if I am being repetative or if I have misunderstood.

 

I did the DVM behaviorist thing with a reactive, not aggressive BC. Although she could look and act like Cujo, she never ment harm. She simply wanted scarey things to stay away.

 

The vet recommended a "cocoon" period of 2-3 weeks in which to the best of my ability, I did not expose the dog to its "triggers". This was to allow the stress hormones in the dog to return to baseline. After the cocoon period, the dog was to be very very slowly re-introduced to its triggers in a controlled manner (to the best of my ability) in a process known as desensitization and counterconditioning.

 

If i were in your position, I would make a list of your dog's triggers and then to the very best of your ability avoid these triggers until after you see the vet. By putting the dog on a leash or holding its collar by the door, you are actually triggering the opposition reflex which means that your dog will pull even harder towards the door. Schutzhund and protection dog trainers actually use the opposition reflex to increase defense (potentially aggression) drive!!! So, by restraining the dog by the door, you may be inadvertingly making the problem worse.

 

I would simply shut the dog in another room when / before guests arrive and keep the dog away from guests until after the vet has given you a treatment plan. it is easy enough to lock the front door or put a sign on the door telling people to knock (or call on their cell phones), so you can put the dog away before they enter the house.

 

I would not let this dog interact with any visitors until after you have met with the behaviorist and received instruction on how to handle the dog in these types of situations.

[rushdoggie]

Just curious....when you say nylon muzzle, you are not talking the ones they use at the vet are you?

If so, I would suggest you change into a basket muzzle like the dogs wear on the race track. Just a thought.

 

FWIW, I use a nylon muzzle with my fearful reactive dog, and it calms him down tremendously...vet behaviorist believes the pressure on his face is comforting. He recommended I teach my dog to walk on a gentle leader due to this and he seems happier.

 

But he only wears the muzzle during vet exams, things like that. He doesn't wear it around the house.

[sparrowly]

Re: the cone - have you checked out the "Comfy Cone"? We used it with our last very sensitive BC, and again with our current BC post-surgeries. It's soft and pliable, so easier for the dog to navigate and sleep in. Given Logan's issues, it may not work, but just throwing the suggestion out there.

 

We have a Medium Comfy Cone that fit our 34 pound BC and our current BC who's 27 (and still growing).

 

There are also the Kong brand donuts or inflatable collars - but I don't have personal experience with them.

[G. Festerling]

The basket muzzle allows drinking and treats. Although somewhat limited. Also allows for more normal breathing if the dog is stressed and it is over longer period of time. Just a thought.

[patriciag]

We picked up Logan from the vet about 4:30pm. He was very groggy and could hardly stand. He hates the cone. The tech said he was pretty good, but growled at the tech when she shut the cage door after giving him his pre-op medication (morphine). Then they said when they checked on him post-op, he would growl softly when they went in.

 

We got him home and gave him a light meal and water. Then I was talking to him and he snarled at me. So, I'm a bit depressed. But I know he is in pain (he was whining) and so I am staying away and letting husband care for him. I'm in the family room tonight. Thanks for the advice about the triggers. Marvin actually held him by the chair across from the door. I think removing him from the trigger is very good advice. I will see if we can manage this.

 

Yes, the muzzle is the nylon one. He doesn't seem to mind it at all. But it is just and aid, such as in the vets. He was very happy and got along with the techs when my husband took him in. Once they put him in the cage though, he wasn't happy. I hope we have not put him through this pain needlessly. I am very nervous right now about what is going to happen at the behaviorist.

[Blackdawgs]

Working with a behaviorist is a very big committment in terms of time and money. Success largely relies on the ability to manage the dog's environment. Which may mean making changes in your lifestyle (and if you are not willing to do this, it is OK)

 

The other component to "triggers" is distance. The dog may react to the trigger when it is 5 feet away, but not 20 feet away. Before i started working with my dog, she was reacting to dogs that were an entire neighborhood block away from her! Now she can walk around pet stores, and dog shows without a problem, but I know this dog so well that I can get her out of situations before something happens. And by now she trusts me to not let anything happen to her

 

It may be that holding your dog in a room on a leash by a chair is still too close to the trigger. In fact, if the dog is reacting negatively, it is still too close to the trigger and it is time to increase the distance or shut the dog in another room.

 

Too be clear, it is your house, your husband, and your stuff. If the dog acts out in your presense, the dogs gets banished to another room, not you (ofcourse someone has to tend to the needs of the dog when it is 'banished")