border aggression to teen age granddaughter

[patriciag]

Well, it did not go well. Jaime asked us to bring all three dogs out front to greet him before he came in. The two aussies were fine, no problems. My husband brought out Logan. Jaime greeted him very calmly, offered a treat, which Logan refused. As we were talking, Logan lunged and tried to bite him. He tried twice. Then Jaime asked if we could go in and talk.

 

My husband put Logan in a sit/stay, and Jaime was demonstrating to us how we need to have Logan go thru doors. He lunged at him again, then he tried to attack me and bit me on the leg. No skin was broken, but it is bruised. Jaime took him once and took him out, then back in, then out again, then back in. No problem. Logan obeyed him. Then he was handed back to my husband and he tried to lunge at Jaime again. Jaime moved husband and dog to another area of the room and showed my husband how to stand between the dog and Jaime. Logan kept moving his head to watch Jaime, very intense. He continued to work with my husband, trying to explain that we needed to be trained so that Logan recognized that we would take care of things so Logan did not have to. I get it, but my husband does not. He is very old school.

 

Bottom line, this is a very intense dog with aggression issues. I told my husband he can call UC Davis and set up an appt. What we will do until then I'm not sure. Jaime is willing to work with husband. He says Logan needs so much more like a sheep ranch or someone who can and is willing to spend tons of time at dog parks, and giving the dog the amount of work/exercise he needs. How we are going to find that person is the big question. Jaime said we could work with Logan and give him everything he has suggested and we are just not a good fit for this dog. He feels Logan will never be the dog we think he should be. I've said before, my experience with herding dogs is aussies and shelties. I guess aussies especially are more laid back. Jaime said he would work with us at dog parks. That Logan needs to run with other dogs that he does not know and learn to work with him. He needs the mental work. Already he is bored with playing ball in the back yard. He plays, but quits soon because it doesn't challenge him. So, we need to teach him wait, then fetch on our command to give him more mental work.

 

I am now pretty afraid of Logan and even if I try not to show it, he knows. I thought Jaime did a good job and was very frank with us. He suggested getting on every border collie rescue in the western states to see if someone was willing to take and work with this dog. He also agreed about UC Davis, but did say that he has had clients leaving UC Davis, very disappointed. I wil leave the final decision to my husband, who is very attached, but I don't feel safe in my home now.

 

I'm sorry that I am not better equipped to do this. At our age, we want to travel, golf, and kick back in the afternoon. I don't see, long term, us giving him what he needs to be happy and trusted. I will post when my husband makes a decision, about UC Davis. I feel like I am letting Logan down and you down. Now I will probably have a good cry.

[Camden's Mom]

I am SO sorry to hear things went the way they did... my heart just broke for you reading your last post.

 

You said your husband is very attached, but it's clear that you care for this dog too and want the very best for Logan. You have, in a very short period of time, done more for this dog then probably anyone else ever has in his entire life. Please, please do not beat yourself up...

[G. Festerling]

I am so sorry.

 

I have had aggressive dogs. I took them by choice. They don't bother me. But my lifestyle has been totally different. No children. I have a structure around here that keeps me, others and the dogs safe. I work hard at it. They are interesting to me, but I do draw the line at some things. One being how much they will let me make progress with them. They have to allow for things to get better. Not sure if that makes any sense.

 

If you are afraid of him...it does not bode well. It is not fair to you, your family and to him.

 

 

[patriciag]

G Festerling,

 

Not sure I understand the "allow for things to get better". Logan will obey us. He has learned sit/wait for his meals, sits nicely with other dogs when I dole out a treat, loves to play ball, although he is getting bored. But the unpredictability is so scary. I can't trust him. Why did he bite my granddaughter, why did he snarl at her when she came over? Why did he bite me today when the trainer was here? He is very attached to my husband, and may never bite him, but what about me and others?

 

Can you make any suggestion to me about finding a place for him? Believe me, we would drive him across country to find a suitable home for him. I am so upset and don't know what to do. Hubby took off with Logan in the car. I think he is having real issues with keeping him, but putting him down is so unreal to us.

 

We have to put dogs down if they are sick and in pain and cannot be healed. We don't put down healthy dogs. Can anyone give us any suggestions to get Logan somewhere he will be happy? So sorry. If this was paper it would be covered in tears right now.

[urge to herd]

I am so sorry to hear that it went so badly. I don't have any help to offer beyond my wishes that you find a way to make your decision, whatever that may be.

 

I echo what Camden's mom said. You've given Logan a lot in the short time you've had him. Never be sorry for that.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[jvw]

I am so sorry for you! It is a hard spot to be in. I know the stress an unpredictably aggressive dog can bring. But you have to feel safe in your own home!

 

It will be nearly impossible to place him since he bites. That is a huge liability issue.

 

Do not beat yourself up! You have really tried to help Logan.

[gcv-border]

I am so sorry to hear of your sad experience. I think you have made a very responsible attempt to improve Logan's life, but he may, unfortunately, be too damaged except for a narrow set of living circumstances - i.e. with a VERY dog knowledgeable person who has the time and space to devote to him. There are so many unknowns here.

 

Have his thyroid levels been checked at Hemopet? Dr. Dodds.

 

I don't think you can expect a rescue to take Logan because of the liability issues. I volunteer for a BC rescue, and we were just contacted about an unpredictable biter, but we can not accept such a dog and expect to safely place him.

 

Best of luck to you and your family. I hope that a solution appears. Life sucks sometimes.

[Sue R]

I commend you for the concern and effort you have put into trying make a sane life for this dog who apparently is a product of bad and inconsistent nurturing in his background.

 

As for not putting down a "healthy" dog - if a dog is a danger to his people, if mentally he is unstable enough (or fearful enough or reactive enough or whatever enough) that he can turn in a moment from fine to aggressively biting, that (to me) can be reason enough. To rehome a dog like that, unless there is someone who is willing to take him on as their own project, knowing fully well that he has issues that can (and have) caused injury already, how would you propose doing that? There is not a reputable rescue that would take on a dog with a bite history, and this dog now has a history of multiple bites in your household alone.

 

It is *not your fault* if Logan has these problems - I expect those issues were there all along (or at least from the point in his history where they were instilled in him, fear, biting, etc.), and you have just now seen them, tried to deal with them, and are rightfully afraid and concerned. You can't live a life with a dog that you fear. There are thousands of dogs and probably hundreds of Border Collies in shelters and rescues, many of whom will be put to sleep, who are sane and safe dogs. If you *want* and can provide a good home for one of these dogs, maybe that would be an alternative - while you can't have a household with Logan that is a happy and secure one for all concerned, maybe you could provide that for another dog who does not have these issues. If you had to put Logan down for the safety of all concerned, making a home for another dog who would lose his/her life unnecessarily would be a fitting memorial to the life he deserved (but what his past prevented him from being able to live out) and to your ability to provide a loving home to a dog that was suited to your family.

 

Maybe I'm rambling (a fault of mine) and maybe I'm being harsh (and I don't mean to be) but I am worried for your sake, your granddaughter's sake (a dog should not come between you and your family), and also for Logan's sake. For some families and some dogs, in some situations, euthanasia can be the right choice when looking at the big picture.

 

I hope that whatever you do decide, that you can be content that you have made the right decision for you, your family, and Logan. I can hardly imagine how difficult this must be for you all. God bless.

 

We have to put dogs down if they are sick and in pain and cannot be healed. We don't put down healthy dogs. Can anyone give us any suggestions to get Logan somewhere he will be happy? So sorry. If this was paper it would be covered in tears right now.

[GentleLake]

Have his thyroid levels been checked at Hemopet? Dr. Dodds.

 

You might be interested in reading this thread if his thyroid hasn't been checked: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=31852&hl=

 

I, too, am saddened by your unfortunate experience today. I'm sorry I don't have an answer, beyond the very real possibility of a medical issue such as hypothyroidism, which can cause behavior just like you're seeing.

 

Others here have offered some good insights. It will be difficult to find a rescue that can take him. And sometimes there are difficult decisions that have to be made. But I do hope you'll consider having a blood sample sent to Dr. Dodds before making any final decisions.

 

Wishing you the best as you navigate this awful situation.

[jvw]

What Sue said!

[geonni banner]

[juliepoudrier]

Others have spoken eloquently enough, but I did want to try to answer your question about why he went after you. Displacement. He wanted to go after Jaime, couldn't, and you were there, so it was you he lashed out at.

 

FWIW, it may be that he was uncomfortable with Jaime and felt pushed. He may be a dog who benefits from chemical therapy (drugs) first, followed by behavior modification. But if you are afraid, then chances are you aren't going to be able to work with him the way he needs to be worked with.

 

I have lived with a fear aggressive dog for ~14 years. I know what his triggers are and how to avoid setting him off. As he's gotten older, he's gotten worse in some regards. I used to be able to trim his nails, groom him, scale his teeth. He doesn't allow any of that now unless I muzzle him. I took him with the intent to find a home for him, but once I realized he was fear aggressive, I knew my choices for him were much more limited. He's 15 now, and in all this time, he's only bitten my badly once, and has had teeth on my maybe 3-4 additional times (but with bite inhibition). The one real bite came when I unthinkingly did something I know to be a trigger, with the predictable result.

 

You can live with such a dog, and I have to admit that Farleigh can be super friendly with people, which is a bit scary because he could suddenly feel threatened and bite. I've been lucky in that regard. I do know if Farleigh ever gets to the point where he needs intensive interaction with me (that is, where I have to treat him regularly for something beyond giving him thyroid pill in a bit of cheese or canned food), it will be too dangerous for me to try. So if he becomes ill and needs more involved care, I will likely opt for euthanasia at that point.

 

Anyway, I think doing bloodwork and giving UC Davis a try is worthwhile--a vet behaviorist can prescribe meds that can help him to feel more relaxed, which in turn can allow you to interact with him in a safer manner, but it really depends on whether you have the time and wherewithal for that, and it's no shame if you don't.

 

If the choice has to be euthanasia, then at least you know he was given a chance and that despite what might be whirling around in his head he might have recognized the fact that he was with loving, caring humans for his last days.

 

I feel for you.

 

J.

[alligande]

I am so sorry about what happened.

Have you had him to a vet, my late Brody was a dog who could be snappy and he knew us well. When he was sick he became very territorial of his truck and we had an incident where he reached out and tried to grab a lady getting out of the next car, and was an ass about it. It took him behaving strangely in agility for me to take him to the vet, I had his thyroid tested and that was fine, turned out he had Lyme once the antibiotics kicked in he returned to his pleasant self. Logan has had a hard life and maybe he has some health issues that are making him unpredictable, at least it's worth a look.

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, Patricia, I am so very sorry. I wish I had something to say or offer that would help, or that has not already been said.

Please just know that you're doing all you can, the best you can. The tragic fact is, not every dog can be saved. We've seen stories right here on the boards of dogs that, for whatever reason, (environmental, physical, etc) could never be made reliably "right." But I can imagine the absolute desolation you must feel at the thought of giving up on him.

I'm going to give you some links to rescues in California, and perhaps one of those may have some advice or suggestions for you. In the meantime, having a look at his physical state might not be a bad idea. Who knows, perhaps there is some physical factor adding to Logan's anxious instability.

Here are the links:

Border Collie Rescue of California: http://www.bcrescue.net/

Border Collie Rescue of Northern California: http://bcrescuenc.org/

Border Collies in Need: http://www.bordercolliesinneed.org/

Central Coast Border Collie Rescue: http://www.ccbcrescue.com/

I don't know any of these organizations but I found them online. Perhaps someone within these groups can help you. It only costs you time to call and find out. My heart does go out to you. It's a terrible situation to be in.

~ Gloria

Well, it did not go well. Jaime asked us to bring all three dogs out front to greet him before he came in. The two aussies were fine, no problems. My husband brought out Logan. Jaime greeted him very calmly, offered a treat, which Logan refused. As we were talking, Logan lunged and tried to bite him. He tried twice. Then Jaime asked if we could go in and talk.

 

My husband put Logan in a sit/stay, and Jaime was demonstrating to us how we need to have Logan go thru doors. He lunged at him again, then he tried to attack me and bit me on the leg. No skin was broken, but it is bruised. Jaime took him once and took him out, then back in, then out again, then back in. No problem. Logan obeyed him. Then he was handed back to my husband and he tried to lunge at Jaime again. Jaime moved husband and dog to another area of the room and showed my husband how to stand between the dog and Jaime. Logan kept moving his head to watch Jaime, very intense. He continued to work with my husband, trying to explain that we needed to be trained so that Logan recognized that we would take care of things so Logan did not have to. I get it, but my husband does not. He is very old school.

 

Bottom line, this is a very intense dog with aggression issues. I told my husband he can call UC Davis and set up an appt. What we will do until then I'm not sure. Jaime is willing to work with husband. He says Logan needs so much more like a sheep ranch or someone who can and is willing to spend tons of time at dog parks, and giving the dog the amount of work/exercise he needs. How we are going to find that person is the big question. Jaime said we could work with Logan and give him everything he has suggested and we are just not a good fit for this dog. He feels Logan will never be the dog we think he should be. I've said before, my experience with herding dogs is aussies and shelties. I guess aussies especially are more laid back. Jaime said he would work with us at dog parks. That Logan needs to run with other dogs that he does not know and learn to work with him. He needs the mental work. Already he is bored with playing ball in the back yard. He plays, but quits soon because it doesn't challenge him. So, we need to teach him wait, then fetch on our command to give him more mental work.

 

I am now pretty afraid of Logan and even if I try not to show it, he knows. I thought Jaime did a good job and was very frank with us. He suggested getting on every border collie rescue in the western states to see if someone was willing to take and work with this dog. He also agreed about UC Davis, but did say that he has had clients leaving UC Davis, very disappointed. I wil leave the final decision to my husband, who is very attached, but I don't feel safe in my home now.

 

I'm sorry that I am not better equipped to do this. At our age, we want to travel, golf, and kick back in the afternoon. I don't see, long term, us giving him what he needs to be happy and trusted. I will post when my husband makes a decision, about UC Davis. I feel like I am letting Logan down and you down. Now I will probably have a good cry.

[patriciag]

Thanks so much. I have emailed border collie rescue of Northern ca and the one for California already. No reply so far. I will also email the others. Right now my husband is in denial I think. I expect him to blame the trainer at any time. My other granddaughter came over after school, breezing in as she always does. I had to talk to her and tell her not to get too friendly with him. He did not bother her, but I felt it best to warn her. My husband was upset that I told her that, but I can't chance her getting friendly, then him turning. If he is going to bite anyone, I would rather it be me.

 

I hope after hubby sleeps on it, he may start realizing this is an uphill battle we may not win and it may really affect our lives for a long time. I was very serious when I said that we would travel across the country to find a good place for this guy. So, if anyone knows of a sheep ranch or whatever that would be willing to give him a chance, we would like to know.

 

Thanks again for all of your input. I so appreciate it.

[Sue R]

"A sheep ranch" is not the answer. Maybe you will find a place with the right person who can help him have a happy and normal life, and maybe not. Whatever you do choose, I hope the choice works out well for all concerned. You are trying very hard to do right by this poor dog when apparently no one else previously has done so.

[GentleLake]

Checking for Lyme is also a very good idea if it's not already been done. I have also heard of the possibility of aggression with it, but had not thought of that.

 

And Sue's right; the answer isn't finding him a sheep ranch. He needs someone who'll be dedicated to trying to rehab him and manage him, preferably someone who's got some experience with dogs like him.

 

It's quite possible that medication might be helpful, but it's only a part of the equation. Not everyone's equipped to be able to do the involved and prolonged work that he'll need, and with no guarantee of success. There's no shame in making an honest assessment and finding that you're not up to the task. I don't think anyone would blame you.

 

Again, I think before making a final decision, though, his thyroid should be checked by an expert in the field, Dr. Dodds, which so far I haven't seen you comment on, and he should be checked for tick borne diseases if you haven't already had this done.

 

As before, best wishes for the best outcome, whatever that ends up being.

[Liz P]

If you have people like your granddaughter "breezing into the house" he cannot be loose. It's a bite waiting to happen.

[G. Festerling]

One, yes, I probably would at least run the most basic and obvious bloodwork.

 

Two. Although I have taken them in the past, I did not do it because I enjoyed it. The ones I knowingly took were cases where I felt it was not their fault. The one I have now, well, it has been three years since I picked her up to "foster" her. She was not ok in an adoption program due to her issues. This dog has never actually bitten. Not been allowed to. I can let her around my clients. So yeah, issues that anyone with a bit of time and brains could handle. So, don't expect a rescue to step up for your boy. They can't. It is too dangerous.

 

Three. This may or may not come across right....Logan seems (per your description and that is all we have...not knowing you we do not know how well you are handling it and that is not to be insulting at all...it is a fact) pretty screwed up. Whatever the reason. Working with him could be a life altering experience. Good, bad or indifferent. Dedication, determination and tons and tons of work. That would have to include total devotion to him when he is around you. When you don't have it available...he would have to be safely tucked away. Crated if needed. This is the kind of situation equal to never turning a water hose on and ever walking away...not even for a second...because you could get side tracked. When you work this boy...there can be no side tracking. Until he can learn to cope. Which means that from start to end (if there ever is one with dogs like him as in being able to let your guard down completely), things need to change. They need to progress (which may include sliding back at times as well - the old it could get worse before it gets better thing). This progression means that you will constantly have to adjust your approaches to him. To keep him moving along. This takes lots of staying on the ball and learning. Again, lots of time and dedication. Here I am never certain if a dog that is getting the gift of such love and devotion truly can/will change or if we don't learn to "deal/work around/manage" to an extend where under normal circumstances we are truly able to live without concern or fear around them. But that is under normal circumstances, with not grand daughter, friends, family or anyone else making a mistake. These dogs are a life altering task. Are you up to it? And I acknowledge that this is very intense and not everyone's desire in life. I suppose it can be very intimidating. Add that you probably did not bargain for this...it is tough and very sad and upsetting for you to find yourself in this postion.

 

Four. I wonder, did Jamie, at any time tell you that he felt the dog was non salvageable? Did he indicate that he felt this dog needed to be put down? I know very few to no trainers that would not at least for the sake of due diligence point out to you that this dog is truly dangerous if he comes across in real life as such. Maybe I missed that in your post.

 

Five. If this dog is deemed to be to unstable and to be a threat to others, a legit threat, then you have taken on the responsibility to let him go with dignity. Not be passed around to wanna be trainers. It is up to you to keep him safe. And that may mean putting him down. Before he does serious harm and it is out of your hands. I am not suggesting that is what has to be done. Nor am I suggesting that you take the first opinion. I suppose I personally am bad about searching for things I want to hear...but even I keep my ears open and follow the advice of the people I choose to ask. I may consult two or three different people I trust...and then make my choice.

 

So to sum this up...I feel horrible for you. I feel horrible for your husband. For your grand daughter. And I feel horrible for Logan. If I was in your shoes, within reason, I would probably try the behaviorist as well. See what their take is. And do the blood work if at all possible. After you have exhausted these resources...I think you will have much more info to maybe make a decision that your family can live with. So many great responses already in this thread. I have never had a dog on meds...but I would hate to not at least try if there was a small chance that it would make a difference in all of yours lives for the positive. But again, whatever your action ends up being, it has to be appropriate for your situation.

 

[patriciag]

Thank you. Bloodwork - yes I will have it done. The vet that is supposed to do the neuter on Monday is new to us. My vet is about 20 miles away and before all this, hubby said he would like a closer vet for Logan. I am having second thoughts and may cancel the neuter and take him to my vet who is very experienced with dogs and will probably know what I am talking about sending the blood work to Dodds. I was going to have the blood drawn when we took him in for neuter.

 

So, I have to approach my hubby about that. If the decision is to be made to put him down, there is no reason to neuter him, so maybe we put the neuter off and do the blood work. If there is an issue with the thyroid, then we might have a reasonable chance with this dog. I will not hope too much, but will try.

[patriciag]

I did forget to reply to the question about Jaime. Jaime said this dog was not a good fit for us. To try to rehabilitate this dog was a very tall order and our life style now that we are retired is more laid back, golf, etc. We have always loved our dogs, but they fit into our life style. I said that euthanasia was unreal for us with this dog. But Jaime said do not take euthanasia off the table. He said to try to rehome this dog was not an option unless it was an environment where the people were capable of taking on the responsibility. He said no rescue would take him beause of the liability, although I should try everywhere.

 

He said the bottom line was we had to make a decision and if we wanted him to help he would continue to help us, but he did not want us to throw our money away thinking all the problems would be resolved. He has given us some good guidelines. As an aside, this dog is so smart (you guys know that). Hubby started today with making Logan wait behind him until hubby said he could cross the doorway, no matter where in the house. I was just watching him. He waits until hubby walks across any doorway in the house and then follows him. It's unreal. I will be curious to see what happens when they go out to play in the morning.

[G. Festerling]

The hardest part is to watch small things and get the glimmer of hope when the rest of the story just does not fit. I keep my fingers crossed for you. Tough choices for sure. And I commend you for not taking this lightly.

[patriciag]

Okay, I need to stop posting tonight. You people are like having a close friend to talk to. I forgot to mention that my mini aussie Ella has hypothyroidism. She has never shown any of the symptoms, but my vet found it during some routine blood work. She is on soloxine. She does seem to be more lethargic now, and her test is coming up soon so they may need to modify the dose.

My granddaughter's sheltie also had it. She showed the symptoms of dry coat, tail looking like a rat's tail, weight gain and lethargy. Once they put her on soloxine, her weight went down and she had much more energy. However she had many health problems and was old. We don't know how old because she was a rescue also. They had to put her down right before Christmas. She was very ill and it was her time.

 

I don't know why I didn't make the connection before when everyone was talking about hypothyroidism.

[alligande]

This is just a thought and others may say it won't matter, but I would put of the neuter until you have made a decision about going to UCDavis, neutering is going to involve pain and a scary outing and any trust he has built with you might be damaged, and there has been a lot written that says it won't make that much difference in his behavior.

[patriciag]

alligande - I agree. It is still early here, but i will be postponing the neuter. At this point if I have to put him down, it is only causing him undue pain without reason.

 

I heard from the border collie california rescue and they will not take him. I have to talk to my husband this morning (it is still pretty early here). I woke early and the first thing into my head was Logan.

 

I will be calling my vet and taking him there to have blood drawn. She is excellent and has had borders in her family so she understands the breed. The gal my hubby took Logan to for his shots I'm not too impressed with. She told husband she is a cat person and nothing wrong with that, but not for my dogs.