border aggression to teen age granddaughter

[urge to herd]

Patricia, you're doing an incredible job of taking care of Logan and giving him the best chance he might have. You are to be commended. I'm glad you're here getting some support and info.

 

Please know that you're absolutely doing the right things for Logan and for you and your family.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Camden's Mom]

Yeah, I have to second (and third and fourth) what others have said about letting go of the "he needs to be on a farm herding sheep" theory by your trainer. It would be like suggesting a young person with severe mental challenges and great athletic ability just needs to "go to a school with a great football program". Would it help? Yeah, it probably would a little bit... but it's by no means a "fix" for his complex issues.

 

I commend you and your husband for not wanting to give up on this dog. It sounds like you have decided to pursue a few more options (possibly UC Davis) and have a few more tests done (thyroid, lyme). I think having all the information you can get your hands on is great due diligence, as the decision you have to make is a such a difficult one.

 

I also wanted to say that Sue's post was so compassionate and well stated... You've gotten a lot of good advice here and if your husband is still struggling with making a decision (whatever that may be) you may want to link him this thread and allow him to read the thoughtful advice you've been given.

[patriciag]

I really need to clarify what the trainer said. I'm trying to remember his words, but he was trying to make my husband understand that this dog needs physical and mental stimulation every day. He said if we wanted to buy a sheep ranch or spend every day at the dog park having this dog around other dogs, learning from them and getting mental stimulation trying to learn how to being around them, we would have a tall order trying to help this dog.

 

I don't believe, and am sorry if I said, that we should find a sheep ranch that would take him, although if that was possible, it would be good. What he was trying to convey was this dog needs so much more than we can give him, and he is not a good fit for our lifestyle. Since he has bitten and continued to show aggression, he can't be trusted and so we may not find anywhere for him.

 

Does this make sense?

 

I am looking at sanctuaries right now. I don't know a lot about them, but thought I would start researching. If anyone knows of reliable ones I can check into, I would appreciate the input. I know there are good ones, and bad ones, and they are all full.

[Gloria Atwater]

The first sanctuary that comes to my mind is Dogtown in Utah:
http://bestfriends.org/The-Sanctuary/Explore-the-Sanctuary/Dogtown/

I have no idea what their process is, but I know they've taken on many supposedly incorrigible dogs. It's worth a call, anyhow.

I'm so sorry you're going through all this.

~ Gloria

[Laurae]

I am looking at sanctuaries right now. I don't know a lot about them, but thought I would start researching. If anyone knows of reliable ones I can check into, I would appreciate the input. I know there are good ones, and bad ones, and they are all full.

 

I also want to say that I think it is wonderful how you've really shown this dog the most consistent kindness and care for his well being that he has known in his short life. But, if you find you cannot continue to care for him with his damaged mental state, I will suggest that you consider that euthanization may be a more humane option than warehousing him in a sanctuary, where his care will likely be less predictable and done by a larger variety of individuals than he has seen with you, possibly causing further anxiety to this dog. I would not presume to tell you what to do in your situation, but I did want to present this idea for you to consider.

[patriciag]

Thanks for the input. There are many sanctuaries that are no better than hoarding, and I realize that. However, I know there are many that are good. Whether Logan would qualify I don't know. He is not dog aggressive. He seems to really enjoy other dogs. But right now it is just a thought.

 

We have cancelled the neuter, have a visit to MY vet tomorrow, and have the blood test done and check for lyme. I was tested for lyme a long time ago when I was bitten in Hawaii. The doc put me on antibiotics, but I never showed any symptoms except the heart shaped area. It is different in dogs. (Just reading up on it). I spoke to hubby this morning and he is working with me.

 

Logan gave us another surprise today. The trainer said to engage him in other play such as toys to toss and play with. This morning he was nosing around my tv and found a small cache of dog toys that kind of gather dust as my doggies don't play with them much. He pulled out one and bounced around the house with it, asking us to toss it. He would catch it, then throw it in the air. It was cute, another side of Logan I have not seen.

[Maralynn]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this situation, Patricia. I don't have much to add the the excellant advice already given except to say that a dog park is not an option for a dog with agression issues. Space to train and mental exercise absolutely. But not a dog park.

[patriciag]

I am very afraid of dog parks. I use them when I am traveling, but never let my dogs off-leash unles we are alone or with similar size dogs with good attitudes. Jaime said we should never take him to a dog park alone, but if we want to go that way, he will work with us. Personally, I don't think that is an option. I understand the need for other dogs stimulating him though, but I can't go that route.

 

We have an acre of land and he plays soccer, and tennis ball back there with us. However, Logan would like to play all day and we are not capable of it.

[Sue R]

If you were to let him play all day, he would expect to play all day. The dogs tend to do best with a certain level of structure and part of that is "down time" (often called the "off switch"). For instance, my dogs get a 20-30 minute walk in the morning, maybe with some additional (10 minutes) of fetch or sometimes with the fetching happening as part of the walk if I am pressed for time or the weather is less encouraging to spend more time outside. The same thing happens in the evening. During the day, when I'm home working, they tend to lie around, chew a bone, play a little among themselves (the two who do that), watch the cats (the one who does that), and so on. It's not that they are not energetic dogs but they have the routine we have established, and it is habitual. They are always ready for *more* should it present itself but they are accustomed to this.

 

You can set up a routine of playing a certain time at whatever intervals suit you, and that's it. If he can't settle in the house, then is a good time for crate time with a frozen Kong or good raw chew bone to occupy him and allow him to settle and take a nap.

 

Interaction with him like your husband was doing in training house manners, or general manners, or even stupid pet tricks, tire his mind - which tends to be even more important than tiring his body.

 

Just some ideas!

[GentleLake]

Patricia, you may want to consider talking to your vet tomorrow about the behavior issues as well, and ask what she or he thinks about the possibility of medication, especially if you don't think you'll follow through with the university vet behaviorist. Of course, if you do that, I'm sure medications will be discussed if considered an appropriate option.

[patriciag]

I keep saying tomorrow. The vet visit is Monday. It has been Sunday all day for me. He has been a good boy today. He started bringing his "toy" he found to me to play with, but he is tired and is ready to call it a day. My granddaughter's boyfriend came over to see him tonight. She told him what happened with the trainer. So we had a long talk. He says his family (for the most part) understands. We are now finding out that Logan has been unpredictable in the past.

 

Anyway, visit to vet on Monday. She is good and I trust her completely to give us the truth. She has owned border collies and aussies in the past, and may still have one. My husband has come to the realization we cannot keep him and we probably won't find a situation to put him in that would be safe. He will make the decision to see the behaviorist or not.

 

I will let you know what the vet says. I think the tests take a few days.

[Sue R]

You mention that Logan had been "unpredictable" in the past. One thing to remember is that that could simply have been the result of people not reading a dog's body language and signals. "He did that out of nowhere!" when really the warning signs were there but not recognized.

 

Also, while we've been quick to mention that Logan's temperament may have suffered from a lack of good nurture, we don't know how much of it *could* be due to something not right in his nature. Just like people, there are dogs that are "wired wrong" and that can't be discounted as a possibility. When that is the case, and someone chooses to keep a dog, careful management is required to avoid problems because nurturing and training won't be enough to overcome the underlying issues.

 

I'm very grateful to see all the thoughtfulness, concern, and discussion going on in an attempt to turn this dog's life around. He didn't "ask" for all the problems that have faced him in his few years.

[GentleLake]

I just went back to read the original post to refresh my memory, after Sue's excellent post that included the comment about it's possibility something wrong with his nature. (I might add, given what you know of his history, that it could be an unfortunate combination of the 2, and I've also thought while reading about Logan that people might not have recognized subtle warnings from him. OTOH, some dogs do suppress warnings, especially if they've been corrected for them in the past, which Logan may well have experienced. )

 

One thing as I was rereading struck me, and that was that during one incident it was apparently dark; you turned on the light, spoke to the dog and he calmed down. It makes me wonder what the lighting may have been like in the other situations. IOW, I'm wondering if he may have some visual impairment, especially in low light, that may be making him fearful of certain movements that he can't see well and then triggers defensive behavior.

 

This might be something else to discuss with the vet tomorrow. Try to remember what the lighting conditions were when the incidents happened, and see if there's any sort of pattern there.

 

BTW, I totally didn't think it was odd that you were talking about having a vet app't on a Sunday. I have a tendency to collapse days like that myself.

[KnottyClarence]

Very interested to see if his eyes are okay.

[Sue R]

What a terrific suggestion!

 

We had a dog that had been shot at close range by a hunter with a 12-gauge shotgun. The wad hit him in the back of his skull and caused quite the wound to the skin and quite the concussion. It also apparently damaged something in his brain relating to vision because his vision was noticeably impaired (although it did improve a bit over time before it again declined, until he was blind).

 

When he had "partial" vision was when he was most likely to be reactive to another dog or situation, probably because he could see enough to know something was happening or moving or approaching, but he couldn't see enough to read body language or know just what was occurring.

 

This is something to certainly check with your vet, and thanks to Roxanne for picking up on that one situation and thinking of it.

 

One thing as I was rereading struck me, and that was that during one incident it was apparently dark; you turned on the light, spoke to the dog and he calmed down. It makes me wonder what the lighting may have been like in the other situations. IOW, I'm wondering if he may have some visual impairment, especially in low light, that may be making him fearful of certain movements that he can't see well and then triggers defensive behavior.

 

This might be something else to discuss with the vet tomorrow. Try to remember what the lighting conditions were when the incidents happened, and see if there's any sort of pattern there.

 

BTW, I totally didn't think it was odd that you were talking about having a vet app't on a Sunday. I have a tendency to collapse days like that myself.

[patriciag]

First, again, thanks for all the input. You guys have given me so much information to understand this dog and breed. I've wondered if there is a wire wrong in Logan's head. He is so loveable (came up and licked my hand early this morning when husband got up to check on his Dad). First time he has done that. (you don't have to read all of this, just venting this am).

 

Then he seems to like the dogs and they don't seem afraid of him. However, my husband was just eating a donut and Ella came up to his chair. Logan fixed on her. That stare that looks like he is ready to do something. I ordered Ella back to the Couch and then Logan went behind husbands chair and was good. Nothing happened. However, I'm learning to read these signals, and I tense up as soon as I see something like that.

 

I will be talking to the vet, but the only time no light may have been an issue is when he bit my granddaughter. It was evening, dark outside. However her mom was right there in the kitchen with the light on. Beth was standing in the washroom and it was dim, but not dark. The second time he threatened her, lights were blazing and she was sitting on our couch when he walked up to her and started snarling. I could see NOTHING that caused that.

 

When the crate incident happened, the lights were on in the bedroom and it was bright. The incident when he growled at me the lights were off. That is why whenever I enter the bedroom, knowing he is there, I call out to him and tell him I am there. It works, but at two in the morning when I get up to use bathroom, I have to say clearly that I am there, then I hear the tail thump.

 

The incidents with Jaime were outside at 11:00 in the morning sunny. Then inside with a lot of light. I don't think it is eyesight.

 

I feel so much pain for this dog. He just wants a good home, but doesn't know that his aggression, whatever is causing it, makes him unacceptable. It is breaking my heart. If I lived in the middle of the country, had few, if any, visitors, and my life was fairly solitary, I would keep this dog and deal with it. But, my life is not like that. We have friends that live out of town and pop in without warning. They call hi as they are opening the door. It could be a disaster, but that's the way we have lived. My family lives so close. My sister-in-law pops into my yard in the summer gathering the tomatoes and veggies when we are not here. That can no longer be. I would have to lock my gates at all times. WOW! My Ella will no longer sleep on my bed. She comes in, looks over at Logan, then leaves. I kept her on the bed last night for a while, then she jumped off and left. I know she is skittish and always will be, but I feel bad for her. Little guy sleeps as always, but if Logan tries to be near him in the bedroom, he moves off. They don't seem to fear him, but have seen him at his worst and I believe, are leery.

 

 

We had a puppy akita mix years ago when my son was about 17. He brought her home. She was by far, the smartest dog we have ever had. We could teach her anything. (maybe she had border in her somewhere). This dog grew so large (120) pounds of muscle. We had no little children, we had dogs, but they left her alone. She was boss. I loved her, but was always careful of her as she became an adult dog. (timebomb). Right before Christmas, one year, she had a rawhide bone and she left it on the floor. My very old, very blind, very deaf poodle mix wandered by the bone and she attacked him. He was dead in 2 minutes because she hit his jugular. I told my husband we had to put her down. We procrastinated thru the holidays and then gave excuses for the dog. I never had another rawhide bone or any bone in my house or laying around again.

 

Then we became grandparents. Brandy was never allowed in the house when the babies were here. We let her see them, but never encouraged contact. She was not interested in them at all. When the boy was just 1 year, I was babysitting, and came in to heat his bottle. She was supposed to be locked outside. She had terminal cancer by then, and her time was short. I heard the bite before I saw it. The boy was trying to pull himself up on the hammock and she had wandered in. He fell on her. She bit him on the head. I really think to this day I hurdled the bar because I was on her before she could move off him. Grandson was okay, but still has a scar under that thick head of hair 16 years later. She had to be put down immediatey. I swore I would never have another dog I could not trust. ( I also know you never leave children alone with dogs at that age and never totally trust any situation unless the child is capable of handling the dog alone. I am always afraid when I see small children climbing over pitbulls, etc. Little dogs lash out quickly, so much can happen).

 

Now I find myself in the same position. We thought the bite with granddaughter was a fear bite, one time only. That has shown to be not true. So, if we had known about the "unpredictability" when this all started, we would not have done this. Grandaughter's boyfriend is now finding out some of these things since Logan bit Beth. Comments like "I knew this would happen", from the grandmother. This information should have been forthcoming, but was not. We now hear the uncle that abused the dog wanted him to be an attack dog. What horrible irresponsibility! Even if Logan was not wired wrong in the beginning, you can bet he was damaged from that. And, they may have gotten him from an irresponsible breeder. Even though he is papered (never saw them) he could have bad genetics.

 

Again, sorry for the rant.

[ShoresDog]

Wow, I am so sorry you are going through this. Poor Logan, too. He was not dealt a playable hand.

[juliepoudrier]

You know, reading your posts it really sounds like you've already decided that your only choice is to euthanize. And that's okay, but if that's the choice you've made, then it's probably counterproductive to agonize over it or feel the need to explain the decision to us or yourself. There's no shame in having tried and realized it can't work. I've said this before and I'll say it again: Sometimes there are worse things than death.

 

Best wishes.

 

J.

[ShoresDog]

I think it's the kind of decision that does lead to a lot of agonizing, productive or not. I can't imagine being put in the poster's position without a huge amount of it. But you are right, Julie, about the possibility of worse outcomes.

[Gloria Atwater]

........

Now I find myself in the same position. We thought the bite with granddaughter was a fear bite, one time only. That has shown to be not true. So, if we had known about the "unpredictability" when this all started, we would not have done this. Grandaughter's boyfriend is now finding out some of these things since Logan bit Beth. Comments like "I knew this would happen", from the grandmother. This information should have been forthcoming, but was not. We now hear the uncle that abused the dog wanted him to be an attack dog. What horrible irresponsibility! Even if Logan was not wired wrong in the beginning, you can bet he was damaged from that. And, they may have gotten him from an irresponsible breeder. Even though he is papered (never saw them) he could have bad genetics.

 

Again, sorry for the rant.

 

 

That last. The uncle. How utterly nightmarish. The damage done by that treatment may put Logan truly beyond recovery. It's not Logan's fault he is what he is ... but I'm sure he's far from happy to be living those episodes. No dog wants to be unstable, angry, afraid. There aren't words to describe how angry I am with those *expletive deleted* people who did this to him. Even worse that vital information was apparently withheld from you.

 

Whatever you decide, dear lady, you are among friends. If it must be that bitter last solution, it may be peace for a poor, tormented little soul, even if it's no peace for you at all. I'm so very sorry for you and for Logan.

 

Blessed be.

 

~ Gloria

[KnottyClarence]

Had a dog with PRA. He had lost most of his vision by the time I had it checked. As I understand it PRA takes away the center of the dogs sight first. So the dog can see bits around the center of his vision but the center is gone. The closer something gets the more it disappears My dog would run away. He could do perfect scores in UKC agility, after one time around with an on leash walk through, but when I took him to sheep, after walking through a dark barn to outside in a very small round pen, he freaked and jumped out of the pen. Later when I had a chance on a bright sunny day to try him on sheep of my own he ran the fence ,line, his own idea, and gathered them back to me. It wasn't till they stood still by me that he looked uncertain and walked off. But your vet will be able to tell if there is something wrong with Logan's eyes.

[jvw]

Patricia, how did the vet appointment go? Perhaps you have gone silent because you are overwhelmed. That would be understandable. Please do not feel like you cannot return to the boards if you have decided to euthanize Logan. No one will judge you. Let us know how you are doing when you get a chance.

[patriciag]

Thanks again. I have not posted because I felt I kind of went overboard last time. I wanted to get my wits about me. We saw the vet yesterday. Dr Tucker is a wonderful vet. I have been taking my dogs to her for over 30 years. She agreed to drawing the blood for hypothyroid, but felt it was not necessary. She has diagnosed this disease in hundreds of dogs over the years, two of them being mine. However, it made my husband feel better.

 

She feels for us and Logan. She said that statistically, this type of behavior always ended up with the dog being euthanized. There are behaviors that we can control, medication may help, although she does not know if that is an answer. So, her advice was, get a second opinion, if we want, at the UCDavis behavior. She gave us a card of the best one there. UCDavis is where she schooled, so she knows them well. If not, she can not tell us what to do, but the liability is great and she fears for my granddaughter and I.

 

I went on the behaviorist's website and there is so much information, but I will tell you that reading through the different aggressions and her advice as to what to start doing (positive reinforcement) was overwhelming. I am not sure at all that my husband or I am capable of following through with this.

 

This AM I was getting ready for golf. I fed Logan, making him sit, wait, then free to eat. He does so well. Then my doggies started to play and rough house. He came out of the bedroom and was watching them. I did nothing, but as soon as they saw him, they stopped and got in their safe places. I called out the boy and he came out and went on his back immediately. Logan stood over him, not moving. I was watching closely, but did not say anything. It seemed so long and the boy would not move, and Logan would not move. Finally I called the boy to come to me. He would not move. I touched his paw and called him, and he would not move. So I called Logan to come. It took 3 times to get him to move. Then I put him in a sit, talking to him in a normal voice. I reached down to pet him and he lifted his lip. I turned around and walked away from him. He will now, not come to me. If he see's me he goes the other way. He watches me as though he is not sure of me.

 

I have no clue. But I told my husband that no matter if we went thru with the animal behavorist or not, I would never let my granddaughter be around this dog without him being restrained in some way, outside, or him keeping him by his side. I told him that I believe he and I have about 20 years left in our lives. That would make us 90. Since Logan is so young, 10 of those years would be dealing with Logan's behavior. I have been afraid of this dog for 2 weeks now, and I don't see that changing. I wish in a way he was not so loveable and eager to please. It might make it easier. It is not the money, I will gladly pay that, but can we follow through with this program, and will we be more in love with this dog, and will he still snap at some point and hurt someone. He is very scary when he goes into what ever we call it.

 

So there we are, right now. I will let everyone know what happens next.

[Sue R]

I'm so sorry for all concerned, you, your husband, your other dogs, your granddaughter, and Logan.

 

I know that whatever your choice is, it won't be made lightly and it won't be made easily. What my primary thought is that you can't live in fear in order to give this dog a home, your dogs can't live in fear with this dog in your household, and your granddaughter (or anyone else who might come into your home) can't be fearful or at risk because of this dog.

 

One way or the other, I am afraid he can't stay where he is with you. It's not fair to any of you, including Logan.

[jvw]

Patricia I am so sorry you and your family are going through all this. Please take care!