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border aggression to teen age granddaughter


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Awesome report, Pat! You guys are rock stars. Srsly. Sounds like you got a great person to work with. About all the advice you got from her - it is overwhelming. I took one of my dogs to a behaviorist and OMG, such a lot to do.

 

If she was not crystal clear about the most important things for you to do, can you call her and ask? Being able to focus on the 2 or 3 top priority items will help. When confronted by overwhelm, whittle it down a bit. :)

 

Some of the things she told you are pretty easy and you're already doing them, but for the more involved, multi-step processes, a little prioritization will help.

 

And this is important to remember - EVERY single thing you're doing is helping Logan settle in, trust you, and begin to become the dog he is meant to be. EVERY SINGLE THING. Nothing is wasted, you're all learning a lot. Please be kind to yourself and your husband in this process. I'm remembering the fear and worry in your first several posts, and above all, your concern for Logan. You guys are rock stars, I'm tellin' ya.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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Thanks to both of you! I don't feel like a rock star, rather a nervous child performing at a school concert! Anyway, yes, we can do that with the Kong. I'm trying to think about the food and the "room" concept and getting them confused, so went back and reread. Feeding him bits at a time is for mental stimulation. The "room" is to put him in a safe place when "strangers" are over. So we have two things. The kong will come in handy when the "room" is being used also, giving him something to do.

 

And, yes, I can call or email her anytime. We will reschedule another consult in 2-3 weeks to see progress. I wish I were rich, but am not, so I feel good about this path, because 1 - I can afford it, 2 - as many consults as I want 3 - I do like her style and how she was around, and how she handled Logan. Everything was calm and no "I am dominant over you". She asked who the trainer was that Logan had such a reaction to. She said he was a good trainer, but definitely did not use +R, and always had that dominant way. He can work with a lot of dogs that are friendly for training, but with one like Logan that has issues, it went wrong. I don't blame him at all. His method just didn't fit us.

 

Also, she said him asking us to put the leash on for the first greet was not a good method. When we took Logan in, he was on leash from the car to the building. As soon as we got inside and Marvin was holding him back and he was nervous, she told Marvin to take off the leash and let him check everything out. He became so much better off leash.

 

My issue/question today is: I'm trying to get all of the dogs outside in the yard together in the mornings because my girl has been spending way too much time on the couch since Logan came. My little boy will go outside and chase Logan if I am out there playing with Logan. They seem to be okay with each other and I have become less nervous. I may be repeating, but Logan has only "corrected" Ruger once, when Ruger was barking and jumping at Logan's haunch. The small thing he did, make a nipping motion, about at least 5 feet from Ruger was it. Ruger backed off. Now, if I think Ruger is getting out of hand in the chasing, I call him off.

 

The girl, however, won't go out if Logan is playing. So I am putting her on a long lead and taking her out. Once she gets out there, and I am acting happy and playing with her I take her off the lead and she seems okay, but she and Ruger get to wrestling and chasing each other, playing. This happened today and even though they were playing, Logan took after them at full speed. It scared me, thinking he would hurt them, and I forgot everything and was hollering Logan STOP, NO, COME. He did turn off and come back to me and I had sense enough to praise him for that.

 

After this long scenario, I am asking, do you think he would try to stop them from playing, hurt them, or is he just trying to play chase too. Of course, with all of my hollering, the girl ran back inside, and the little guy was standing there trying to figure out what was going on. Should I stop him or wait and see what happens? He doesn't seem like the kind of dog that would rip them apart, but it does scare me.

 

thanks,

Pat

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About Kongs- I use one in the winter when the days are just too awful weather-wise to be out as much as we would like. I buy canned dog food or sometimes I stuff with meat, yogurt, some peanut butter, whatever (some people soak the dog's kibble in water for a minute then stuff the kong/freeze)....then throw it in the freezer for several hours. It takes my boy about 30 minutes to finish one. It has never left a mess on the floor and I highly doubt Logan will think he is being punished when you ask him to go into a room, hand him something yummy and walk away.

 

I have in the past used the IQ ball (a treat dispensing toy) I bought on Amazon. If you search treat dispensing toy you will find several different ones to choose from. My boy used to go crazy when I would get the IQ ball out and loves loves his kong!

 

You guys are dong great and going way beyond what most people would do! Give yourselves a pat on the back. :)

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After this long scenario, I am asking, do you think he would try to stop them from playing, hurt them, or is he just trying to play chase too. Of course, with all of my hollering, the girl ran back inside, and the little guy was standing there trying to figure out what was going on. Should I stop him or wait and see what happens? He doesn't seem like the kind of dog that would rip them apart, but it does scare me.

 

thanks,

Pat

I think if he was going to 'rip them apart' he would have done so by now. None of us can see what is going on but from what you type, it sounds like he is playing but also might be playing the fun police game. My dog will sometimes tear after dogs that are really rough housing in a way that says 'hey you idiots, cut it out!' He isn't being mean or nasty, just trying to get them to bring the craziness down a notch. Depending on the situation and dogs this behavior is fine, other times I don't allow it as it bothers the other dogs or just interrupts their play.

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Sounds like Logan was using clear and proper dog language to let Ruger know that he was overstepping his bounds. Sometimes we can get scared by the very *normal and proper* actions that dogs do to communicate with each other - a lifted lip, a growl, an air-snap. A lot of these are simply communication, a warning, and a dog that is also fluent in "dog talk" and that will respond properly, is doing the right thing in return.

 

Fun police happen. The dog I grew up with could not abide certain things that looked "wrong" to her, like a couple of young men walking down the road and play-sparring with each other. She'd break that up fast. And playing racing games? Fine if we were all similar-aged children but should an older child or young adult join the game and give us a head start, he was risking having his pant leg ripped as Lady would let him know that protecting the children was a job she took seriously.

 

My Megan and Dan can play quite "ferociously" together. If you listened, it would sound like someone was about to get killed when they play tug or bitey-face. If you watch, you can see that they play hard but they don't let it go too far. Part of the reason for the loud and fierce noises is that Megan is deaf, and she (like a hearing-impaired person) can be very loud because she doesn't hear how loud she is. And Dan returns her noisiness with noisiness of his own. Meanwhile, Celt is often on the fringes, torn between wanting to be part of the game (but not really being invited or totally comfy about it) and wanting to put a stop to the rather intense action.

 

Lots of times what helps us is to look at things from the dog's point of view. It may give us a very different take on what we are seeing, and that can be very beneficial.

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First, sounds like things are going well, and I'm very happy for you. I agree with the sentiment that Logan is lucky he landed with you.

 

Second, best thing I ever did for my reactive dog was buy a swinging gate for my hallway. It allowed him to see what was happening and take things in, without being too close. It was a little pricey and sized to fit my doorway, but its such an easy way for us to manage him, and it seems to help him so much (he can info gather without the stress of having to make choices, the gate blocks him). Also I have bad hips and stepping over a gate was a physical issue for me. Now it opens and closes easily with a latch.

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I am glad to hear things are going well, when ever I see you have posted I always open the thread hoping the news is good and not the worst, it is nice to hear how your journey is going.

As a cheaper option to rushdoggies swing gate, we have an old fashioned concertina wooden baby gate on our basement stairs, it is not child safe but it is dog proof and much more convenient than the modern version.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just an update on Logan. He is becoming quite the comedian, making us laugh with his antics. We are doing well with the walking. He still pulls but I can handle him with the no pull harness. He is learning not to pull, but when we first go out he is too excited. We met a man with a dog that was taking a lot of interest in us and it made him nervous so I redirected him to a bush with his back to them and told him to "smell", my cue for letting him smell, pee, whatever. It worked very well. They passed us and went on their way. I kind of fell off the wagon on the "room" command. I've been very sick and just didn't follow through, but am starting up again tomorrow. We have had two good situations with "strangers". First my sister-in-law came over again. He barked when she knocked, but my husband had him sit down and then let her in. He told her to just let him sniff her and it went very well. Within a few minutes he was going back to her and letting her pet him. He did get nervous when she was talking and moving her hands a lot, but he went over to her and she just spoke to him and he was okay. We were watching very closely. Then he took one of his toys to her to throw.

 

The other one was my son's stepson. He is 20 and very large and came over for dinner. He just walked in with the rest of the family and Logan was a bit surprised to see someone he had never met standing there. He smelled him, then let the stepson pet him. Before the night was out he was in the back yard playing soccer with the boy.

 

He is doing down/stays in the back yard for a long distance. He is starting to come whenever I call and we are bonding quite well. My husband is still "top dog" though. But Logan listens to me and minds me quite well. Sometimes he gets too focused and I have to block him from the door, but he ends up sitting down before I open the door and not getting up until I tell him. So, progress.

 

Logan hides behind the trees in the yard and fake rocks we have out there when we are playing soccer with him. It is quite funny. Does anyone know if this is a BC trait or just him? He waits until I walk up to the ball, then runs and hides and as soon as I start to swing the golf club, he takes off in a big circle then attacks the ball wherever it lands. Sometimes he catches it with his two front feet in the air, other times he gets it on the ground, then rolls it like crazy with his two front feet all over the yard, up the fence, in hiding places, through the garden mazes. It is very funny to watch.

 

I'm so much more comfortable around him and feel confident if he is naughty that I can handle him. So, there we are for now.

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Your post has made me smile this morning, well before I have had enough coffee to allow such things. Congratulations on your progress,

Regarding Logan's play it sounds very like border collieish.... One of mine would hide behind things so he could attack his brother, my first would stalk me behind stone walls and hedges when I rode, it seemed like he thought I could not see him, my current one is amazing with his paws and can happily entertain himself with a soccer ball although he would rather we played to.

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Thanks to all of you. You have made my journey much easier with all of your input and advice. We keep working. I know we have a way to go, but I feel like Logan is now part of my family. One thing I forgot to ask - this guy has the strangest bark. It goes right thru you. It isn't a staccato bark (bark, bark, bark), but rather a one long bark that starts out loud, then pitches up kind of like a hound. Are all barks similar in the BCs or is it an individual thing?

 

He never barks unless he thinks someone is at the door, and usually take's his cue from my little male aussie who hides behind the couch and barks when someone comes.

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Gibbs does what I think of as 'yodeling'. Other friends of his call him Mr. WooWoo. Everyone in the vicinity turns to look, mostly with smiles on their faces.

 

He does have a serious bark, usually when he's very concerned/afraid of something. The yodel means he's happy/excited.

 

My departed Shoshone had a howl/yodel as well, hers was more questioning, somehow. I think it's mostly an individual dog thing, not so much border collie specifically.

 

Ruth and Mr. WooWoo

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My Celt is a Mr WooWoo, too! He does that when he's decided it's time for me to get out of bed in the morning or when he's all excited about going outside. He's otherwise a very quiet dog, does not bark much at all. I love his "woo-woo" voice. Maybe that's why his nickname is "Woozle".

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Patricia, what a wonderful update! I'm so happy to hear about the progress you are making with Logan. Sounds like he's settling into your home and showing his personality... and it sounds like he's quite a little goofball! I've got one of those super fun loving youngsters and they just make you smile all day long.

 

There's a part of me that can't help but think that Logan is a really, really good dog who was in a terrible situation for a long time. You and your husband saved his life... I hope every single day things just keep getting better for all of you. :)

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Fantastic news, Patricia!

 

I suspect that the extreme reactions when you were first posting was a fearful dog who was terrified of the huge changes in his life and the new (to him) scarey people and he was trying to protect himself. As he's become more secure in his new home and as you've learned how to make him feel safe and given him rules to follow, he doesn't need to be afraid any more an knows he can trust you.

 

I'm so glad for all of you that you had the tenacity to stick with him and to work with him, even as you were afraid of him. It sound to me like you've all grown together and are well on the way to having a trusting, secure relationship with each other.

 

Kudos to you!

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Sue, I'm stealing Woozle. It's just as silly as "Gibbsy-Doodle" and gives us a variety.

 

Ruth and the West Coast Woozle

Celt says, "Woozles of the world unite!"

 

And back to our regularly-scheduled programming!

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  • 2 months later...

Hello Camdens mom. Thank you for asking about Logan. I don't peruse the forums as I did before but I get an email on any posts on my subject. I haven't posted because I wasn't sure if the "Logan" subject had worn people out (lol). Anyway, Logan is still here. He is part of our family now and although I still have doubts about him I do care deeply for him. He loves my husband and has become very attached to me. I still do not trust him completely. He is very affectionate and loves to get in my husband and son's face (son is 44), and give them nose kisses. He tries with me, but I am not crazy about him getting close to my face. However, we are good buddies. I feed him, play with him, and we go for very long walks together.

 

He is very good with the little dogs and wants to play with them all the time. This is good, but he gets too friendly with the little male (nose on butt a lot!), and the little guy gets tired of it and then gets snappy with Logan. Logan then leaves for a while. I'm not sure what to do about this, not sure if there is anything to do, so I just pay attention to what is going on. Logan and little guy (Ruger) play with the soccer game. Logan chases ball, Ruger chases Logan. It is good fun and I hope some weight will eventually shave off Ruger.

 

We have had Logan to the vet a couple of times and he has behaved pretty well, although the muzzle has to be on because the vet knows his history and is not trusting of him.

 

As far as strangers go, he has not changed, but minds much better. It is still a battle to get him to leave the door and sit or down/stay, but he eventually does it. I am much more strict about it than my husband is, which bothers me. I feel if we both really make him mind, he will get in line but if it is a family member he starts barking wildly until the door is opened, then he sees who it is, then calms down. I want him to sit/stay or down/stay until I tell him to get up, so it is a work in progress. If husband knows who it is, he doesn't make Logan sit/stay so the signals are mixed.

 

Logan is much better with people when they are in the house. We have had no more growling, jumping, snarling at people. However, he does not want people to touch our little couch potato, Ella. She owns the couch and if someone sit's next to her, she moves over to get a pet. Logan has challenged my granddaughter, her other grandmother, and our renter when they pet her. I have gotten to him immediately and told him "NO", and down/stayed. Then he is okay with it. He doesn't get bad, it is just a little growl that says "don't touch". He also was very upset when my step grandson gave me a hug on his birthday. He started barking like "stop that". He doesn't understand the touching part at all. So, again a work in progress.

 

So, we are here, Logan is here, and most days are great. I know triggers that set him off and avoid them. I am always cautious around strangers. My husband's health is poor and so I have become a main figure in Logan's daily life. So, I am the feeder, walker, player, and authoritarian when necessary. I do have to be tough with Logan. I never hit or threaten, but I do use my voice loudly when he is doing something that is threatening. He behaves well. I can put him in a down/stay for at least 15 minutes. After that, I start feeling guilty. He is great in the house, not tearing around and sleeps well.

 

I don't think I will ever trust Logan completely because of our history, but I do love him and I know he would protect me or my family at all costs. He is a very protective dog, which causes problems, but he is doing a job.

 

He still cares for my father-in-law, following behind him in the house or yard, watching his feet at all times. My father-in-law teases him with his toys, which I don't like, but we keep telling him and he stops, then does it again. He is 94 and has dementia so he forgets a lot. However, Logan never minds. When he gets tired of it, he moves away. My FIL has a cane and he uses it to get Logan's toys from him and sometimes he uses it to tease Logan. I hate this and tell him to stop, but Logan just gets up and moves away, but stays close enough to watch him if he get's up. He seems to take "taking care of grandpa" very seriously.

 

I have rambled enough so I will try to post once in a while. Thank you again for asking. You guys were so supportive that I don't think I would have gotten through this without your support and advice. Also, Logan's itching has calmed down a lot. I switched him to "Call of the Wild" pacific stream with no grains or chicken and it seem's to help. The vet put him on an antibiotic for a short time and gave us some spray, but said food allergies would take time to figure out. So I thought take away the chicken, take away the grain. It seems to be working. Time will tell.

 

Pat

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Thank you for checking in and letting us know how it going with Logan and your family. I'm so glad to hear of your progress and that you are working with him sensibly and wisely. You have given this dog a real life that he can enjoy and with your care and management, he should be a happy dog and you can enjoy him, too.

 

Allergies can be so hard to deal with. I'm glad you're making progress there, also. They can be miserable and make everyone else miserable when they suffer from that.

 

Very best wishes!

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Glad to hear that you've fallen into a routine that's mostly working out well for you and Logan. Hopefully things will continue to get easier as more time goes by.

 

Y'know, if he was miserable because of allergies, it's quite possible that that was contributing to his grumpiness, too. Good for you for helping him with that, as well.

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