SS Cressa Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 What makes an ideal four legged agility competitor? What traits do you think helps the dog on the agility field? If you had a litter and someone wanted your input on which pups was better suited what would you look at or suggest? Temperament? Personality? Structure? Would any of those areas have an impact on your decision? In what way? I know what I would look for just curious on what non agility competitors think of when someone is looking for an agility dog or when people are talking agility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 The ideal agility dog would be one the competitor enjoys working with and more importantly living with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Not sure what your are asking here -- If I understand your question correctly, you are only interested in opinions from people who do not compete in agility? Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 This article isn't about Border Collies, but I think it makes the point quite nicely. No matter what the purpose, choose a litter with parents you like, then pick the puppy that appeals to you most. You can't tell how they will turn out until you actually start training them to work stock, play agility, etc. I've seen the most reserved pup in a litter become the most friendly and outgoing adult, while the boldest pup in that same litter turns into the most shy and reserved. I've seen the largest pup grow into the smallest adult, the most devoted turn into the least obedient and the least active end up having the most drive and heart. http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm "The main thing that I want to tell you about Saluki structure, based on my experience in the coursing field, is that visible, palpable aspects of conformation don't mean as much as most people think they do. ... There is very little you can look at that will tell you whether or not a Saluki can run well. I still look at dogs and say ‘That dog looks like it can run,' because it looks like a number of other dogs I've seen who could, but I know that maybe it can't." "This leads to another major idea I'd like you to remember when you leave here today: breeding to the standard will not preserve function. All it can preserve is appearance. That is rather obvious when you stop and think about it, because the qualities that make the dog good at its job are by and large not those described in the standard. Most breed standards were drawn up from dogs that were bred for function. What people did, and this is true for other breeds as well as sighthounds, was to obtain dogs from people who had bred them to do some particular thing. They looked at them and said ‘This is what they should look like if they perform this function,' and drew up a standard accordingly; sometimes very precise, sometimes not. Then they bred dogs to look like those which did that thing, instead of breeding them to do it. That's fine if all they wanted was dogs with that look. But, if they expect those dogs to do what resulted in that look they are going to be disappointed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted August 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Not sure what your are asking here -- If I understand your question correctly, you are only interested in opinions from people who do not compete in agility? Jovi I was curious of the thoughts of people who was not as experience with agility. Or more of the working breeder. Though who have done agility are more then welcome to give their input or insight into what they feel would be an ideal partner. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oko Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 I would think it would depend on the individual and their preferences. Starting with both parents being suitable (in my mind this would mean working dogs with nice dispositions and cleared for health issues) and the puppies being well cared for, I feel that any way you decide to pick a puppy is not sure fire. How a dog acts at 8 weeks old is not a set path for the rest of it's life. It can be something to take into account if it acts in an extreme in some way, but other than that, I wouldn't put too much stock into which puppy does what. I don't think there's a one perfect puppy for all agility handlers, like any person choosing a puppy they have preferences for what they want to see! Thanks for the link to the article about the Salukis, it was a great read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrulyReady Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 For me the most important quality would be is the puppy biddable. For agility I want a dog who wants to work with me and be with me for she shear love of working. It doesn't have to be the most outgoing or bravest puppy in the bunch, just one that enjoys interaction with people. I prefer a highly toy motivated dog who will tug and chase with me, even at 8 weeks. A shy puppy is workable but puts you behind the 8-ball from the start for training purposes. Ideally I would like a highly confident but not super dominant puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 My advice would be not to get a puppy if you need to have a good idea of what you are getting for a particular purpose because you would be keeping the dog for life. As LizP said, pups don't always turn out as expected, whatever their breeding. An adolescent dog would be a better bet. It also depends on how much work you are prepared to put in. Do you want a pup that is easy to train or one that is likely to present challenges but has the potential to reach the top with the right training and handler? My daughter runs what I consider a perfect agility dog for an elderly friend, but some wouldn't touch her with a barge pole. Found as a starving pup in a barn she's an unremarkable dog in appearance - short coated blueish tri that wouldn't get a second glance from those for whom appearance is important - but she has working drive in spades. She's always up for whatever anyone will do with her and she's one of the fastest dogs I've ever seen. Because of her speed she isn't easy to handle but she has self control and she is intelligent and very biddable. She is devoted to her owner but will work for anyone because work is so important to her. She pays no attention to other dogs or people but is perfectly sociable when necessary and has a well functioning off switch when needed. She isn't a cuddly dog though, but that could be a bitch thing. Noone could have predicted that the sickly, scared, runty pup she was would turn out that way. And I've known plenty of purpose bred agility and working bred dogs that haven't made the grade. And then you get the dogs that don't work well for one handler but are great with another. Nothing wrong with the dog, just a pairing mismatch. You can shorten the odds in your favour but pups are pretty much a crap shoot. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Liz and Pam have made great points. Like with any young animal, what you see at 8 weeks, structurewise (barring obvious problems), may not be what you get at one year or later. Even two great parents don't guarantee great offspring. No matter what the proposed use, I always tell people to get the pup that speaks to them. Why? Because if you have that connection with the pup, then you will be willing to work through any problems that may arise down the road. In other words, if you have a strong connection to a young dog then you are more invested in that dog and will put forth the effort, no matter what. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 I don't think you can answer this because what is a 'good' agility dog depends on the person. Is a good dog one that is FAST and flashy? One that is reliable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted August 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) I realize everyone idea of a perfect agility dog is different.! The couple of breeder I have a talked to in the past or that friends have talk to in the past when asked about the litter seem to already have an predisposition thought as to what makes an ideal agility competitor. *breeders who livelihood depends on livestock and breeders who use their dogs to help with the livestock. For my next pup I would generally want a breeder to help with the decision since they are the ones most familiar with the pups. And as stated before Breeders seem to already have a set idea as to what makes a good agility dog. Thus the question what makes an ideal agility dog. Eta: I am wondering what the general consensus is for what makes a pup stand out as an agility aspect. specially when the breeder doesn't know much about agility. What are you thinking when you hear agility dog? What do you think I need in an agility dog? Edited August 11, 2012 by SS Cressa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think breeders can assess personalities, and maybe personality/temperament can play a big role in success in agility, but beyond that I don't see how anyone can really predict whether pup A or pup B will be the better agility dog. I know at least with working bred dogs I would be able to tell a potential puppy buyer that I'd expect all the pups to be willing/able to work stock, but the degree of success would depend on the raising and especially *training,* and not all trainers/handlers are created equal. I've seen dogs wash out in the hands of one type of trainer that I really thought could have been stars, or at least solid workers, with another. If you know several breeders who think they can pick the good agility dogs out of a litter, it would be interesting to follow a few litters and see if those picks panned out.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Actually I think that the person getting the dog should know what they're looking for in a pup/dog and convey that to the person (or rescue group/shelter) that they're getting one from. Half of the agility team is the handler, so I'd assume that they'd want a dog that would mesh well with their strengths and weaknesses. I know when I select a dog with something specific in mind, I go into it having a checklist of what I want in mind for either a pup or a young adult. If I went to a breeder I'd want a pup from parents who were solid, driven, dependable workers with even temperaments. Then I'd just want a pup that showed a nice, even temperament. If I went to rescue, I'd want a adolescent/ young adult dog that demonstrated an even, outgoing personality, wasn't fazed by new things had great toy drive. I'd go to a breeder/rescue that I trusted, tell them what was looking for and see if they had a dog they felt would be a good fit for me. I think if you've done your homework as far as breeders go then you should have reasonably good success ending up with a dog that is well suited for what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I think many of the points made above are right on the money - find a dog that 'speaks' to you and examine the pedigree and parents if that makes you feel more comfortable - but realize that all that information is not a guarantee of performance. IMHO, for an agility dog, the most important factor in 'getting' a good agility dog is training. I love this article by Sylvia Trkman. Note: for some reason, I can not post the link, so if you are interested - go to www.sylviatrkman.net, then click on the "our training" link, scroll down and click on "finding a good agility dog". Essentially, she makes the point that she believes in training, first and foremost. Her championship dogs have been purchased in a pet store (her first dog), 2 have been rejects and one was the last one left in a litter. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I would want a dog with boldness, energy and enthusiasm. I suspect the rest would be training. I remember an SFT breeder friend who had a litter of puppies that seemed to come spring-loaded, and I've often thought it would be fun to run a Smoothie in agility. Since I have zero experience trialing in agility though, my assumptions could prove to be very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Temperament, temperament, temperament!! I can build drive in a dog that lacks it. I can train Agility skills. I can build speed. I can build confidence and understanding of the task at hand. Temperament is what it is, and an excellent one is, from my perspective, priceless. Yes, and physical soundness, too, of course. But #1 on my list of a good performance partner (for Agility or any other sport that I participate in) is temperament. Of course - obviously - I will own, love, train, handle, and do my best to bring out the potential in a dog with temperament issues. But the my ideal performance partner has a rock solid sound temperament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I would want a dog with boldness, energy and enthusiasm. Be careful what you wish for. Should you need proof of that, come run Dexter any time! I used to think I wanted boldness, energy and enthusiasm, so I went and got that ... and now I think I want a dog with listening ears and not much else ;-) RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Be careful what you wish for. Should you need proof of that, come run Dexter any time! I used to think I wanted boldness, energy and enthusiasm, so I went and got that ... and now I think I want a dog with listening ears and not much else ;-) RDM Good point. It is by no random course of events that I no longer have terriers. I'm just too old for that sh*t! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have looked at dogs running at sheepdog trials or sporty events with friends who do various dog sports, and they are always impressed by speed, smoothness, etc. Me, I like the dogs that seem the most biddable. I am not worried about world team speed, or a flying flyball dog, but I want a dog who is cooperative, thoughtful and tries hard. And I have to agree with Root Beer on the temperament thing, its very challenging to work with a fearful dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 If I went to rescue, I'd want a adolescent/ young adult dog that demonstrated an even, outgoing personality, wasn't fazed by new things had great toy drive. I'd go to a breeder/rescue that I trusted, tell them what was looking for and see if they had a dog they felt would be a good fit for me. This. We are lucky in this area to have a rescue run by top agility people who can be given a shopping list of what an adopter wants and will come up with the right dog. But at the end of the day the dog should choose you, not the other way round and it's in the eyes. The eyes being the window of the soul applies just as much to dogs as to people and dogs are often a better judge of character than we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Idk I would much rather have a reserved puppy then one who who nothing fazes it. Or a pup who is more independent then one who is 100% devoted to me. The independent one requires more work but the bond you form is timeless. The reserved pup might need more time to explain what you want but it seem to have a better understanding of what is required then the bold reckless pup who grasp what you wanted without knowing why it was required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 <snip> but I want a dog who is cooperative, thoughtful and tries hard. Yes, this. Luckily, that describes my agility dog perfectly. (Whom I was blessed to just luck into, straight out of a shelter, so you never know...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I realize everyone idea of a perfect agility dog is different.! The couple of breeder I have a talked to in the past or that friends have talk to in the past when asked about the litter seem to already have an predisposition thought as to what makes an ideal agility competitor. *breeders who livelihood depends on livestock and breeders who use their dogs to help with the livestock. For my next pup I would generally want a breeder to help with the decision since they are the ones most familiar with the pups. And as stated before Breeders seem to already have a set idea as to what makes a good agility dog. Thus the question what makes an ideal agility dog. Eta: I am wondering what the general consensus is for what makes a pup stand out as an agility aspect. specially when the breeder doesn't know much about agility. What are you thinking when you hear agility dog? What do you think I need in an agility dog? My recent pup was intended to be purchased for agility and I did lots of research and shopping and asking people and then i found some little backyard bred dog that made me laugh the second I saw him if he was missing a leg i would have taken him so weather he is the next Swagger or the worst agility dog ever i do not care I love him I think thats all anyone should consider IMO its a partnership out there no matter who or where the dog came from he has to have heart and try and respect and love that makes the dog and its handler a success Q or no Q....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 My recent pup was intended to be purchased for agility and I did lots of research and shopping and asking people and then i found some little backyard bred dog that made me laugh the second I saw him if he was missing a leg i would have taken him so weather he is the next Swagger or the worst agility dog ever i do not care I love him I think thats all anyone should consider IMO its a partnership out there no matter who or where the dog came from he has to have heart and try and respect and love that makes the dog and its handler a success Q or no Q....... Where's the like button? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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