How Fast Are Your Reflexes?

[terrecar]

Which activity requires the quickest reflexes; agility or sheepdog trialing? Or, are they equally demanding? I am not talking about energy level or physical endurance (though I know each is a component), but strictly the rapidity of reflexes necessary to be reasonably successful.

 

I have a sincere (medical) reason for asking this, so I hope I can get answers without starting a flame war. I am asking it in good faith.

 

 

[Debbie Meier]

I don't know that you can compare them, it's different at least seems to be from what I can see. With agility it is you, dog and obstacle that is set, you can get rhythem and flow, there are distractions to work through but I don't think you are expecting the dog to control the distractions.

 

With stockwork it is you, dog, livestock that march to the beat of their own drummer and a constently changing envirnoment that effects both the dog and the livestock so you are always making adjustments.

 

After awhile you may not notice how much reading and adjusting you are doing, it's second nature, also the more talented of a dog you have the better chance the dog will make and adjustment, quite possibly before you ever saw that there was a problem, with a good dog you often times will never know that there even was a problem. A dog that has not developed a good sense of what and how it should do things will require a pretty rapid fire handling approach; you have to, in some cases, command in anticipation of where you need the dog to be in order to get the right response out of the livestock, when you see the right response from the sheep your are then immediately feeding more information to the dog. In that case you are actually watching the livestock and counting on the dog to obey your commands and you need the dog to be where you told it to go.

 

Now be fore warned there are some that never grasp the concepts involved with training and handling stockdogs on livestock, it is always a struggle for them and they always are late or totally out of the game. Often times they are not understanding the livestock or the dog, both respond in a reasonably predictable manner, especially individual dogs, it's like they are surprised each time the train goes off the track when each derailment happens in the same exact place, at the same exact time and in the same exact fashion. Many dogs will just take the reins and do what they want if the handler is perpetually not at the helm.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Maralynn]

Stockwork = 3 main variables (you, the dog, the sheep)

 

Agility = 2 main variables (you and the dog)

 

But other than that I don't think there is a cut and dried answer to this. It's kinda going to depend on your dog (gung ho on stock or quiet and methodical?) your ability to multitask, your learning style, your ability to "read" animals and what your end goals are. Are you doing it for something to do with your dog? Because you want to compete? if so at what level

 

For instance with stockwork if you've got an easy dog and have a *feel* for animals then it could be a totally different experience than starting out with a pushy dog and you haven't a clue how to deal with the woolie creatures running at your knees.

[Jim Kling]

You might do better to describe your physical/medical issue, and then people can comment on whether they think it would be a liability to either activity.

[juliepoudrier]

Which activity requires the quickest reflexes; agility or sheepdog trialing?

I would say that a sheepdog's reflexes need to be quickest because it needs to be able to read stock and act instantly (or even at the same time, if not before, the stock makes a move). But that's not what you're asking I don't think. Without knowing your actual issue, it's hard to say which activity would be more appropriate for you. They are entirely different.

 

With stockdogs, I need to be able to read stock, but if I have a well-trained and trustworthy dog, I can count on the dog's reflexes to save the day, so to speak. Obviously one would need to have good timing for the purpose of straight lines, good sheds and pens, etc., but aside from needing well-timed commands, you're really counting on the dog's reflexes for the "heavy lifting."

 

I don't do agility, so I can't really comment, but it would seem to me that because the dog doesn't know the course, the human's reflexes (timing?) might be more important? But that's a wild guess on my part.

 

J.

[terrecar]

I hope that makes sense.

 

It does, and I appreciate the time and consideration you put into the answer. I realize you can only give me a general idea, and you have done that.

 

At this point, I am not sure where this 'medical issue' is going (or if it is going!), so a general idea of the factors to consider is all I can really ask for. Thank you!

[terrecar]

With stockdogs, I need to be able to read stock, but if I have a well-trained and trustworthy dog, I can count on the dog's reflexes to save the day, so to speak. Obviously one would need to have good timing for the purpose of straight lines, good sheds and pens, etc., but aside from needing well-timed commands, you're really counting on the dog's reflexes for the "heavy lifting."

 

Good god I am sheepdog challenged. What is a "straight line" in sheepdogging? Surprisingly I know the other two.

 

ETA: Is that where the sheep go out straight from the handler after the dog has brought them in (is that 'the drive'?), and straight across the field at the gates on a "cross-drive"? IOW, instead of moving about? Sorry if I've butchered that. I am still reading the books.

Edited August 4, 2012 by terrecar

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Competitors,

 

Having never competed in agility, much less at the highest levels, I cannot compare the degree of difficulty. Sheepdog trialing is the most difficult activity I have ever attempted. The beautiful run is a little more than what I or my dog can do; a tantalizing possibility; exceeding our mortal limits.

 

You cannot master sheepdog trialing; it masters you.

 

Donald McCaig

[SS Cressa]

I am not sure what exactly you are asking?

 

Also success in what way? Are you just looking at titles or are you looking more for having an "great agility" dog?

 

In agility you have roughly 30sec (generally less) to excute a 20 obstacle course without error. You have to be able to communicate with your dogs about where to go using the best path and also you can end up dealing with making splite second decisons if an error occurs (too wide of turns, too big of jumps) some of which you can train at home most you generally have to work through at trials.

[Pam Wolf]

Good god I am sheepdog challenged. What is a "straight line" in sheepdogging? Surprisingly I know the other two.

 

ETA: Is that where the sheep go out straight from the handler after the dog has brought them in (is that 'the drive'?), and straight across the field at the gates on a "cross-drive"? IOW, instead of moving about? Sorry if I've butchered that. I am still reading the books.

to answer this one,the line is the path the stock takes and straight translates into less distance for the stock to travel, meaning less weight off from excessive running

 

As for which requires best reflexes, depends on how the dog is trained. if he knows his job, the handling is rather simple

[PSmitty]

I should probably not attempt to answer this, but...I think agility would require quicker physical reflexes, but herding take quicker mental reflexes. I'm talking strictly the handler, not the dog.

[terrecar]

to answer this one,the line is the path the stock takes and straight translates into less distance for the stock to travel, meaning less weight off from excessive running

 

Ok, so my ETA, inelegant though it may have been, was at least on the right track. When I first saw "straight line", I thought, oh hell, you have to get the sheep to move single-file??? (LOL). Somehow you managed to convey the definition and purpose in one sentence.

 

As for which requires best reflexes, depends on how the dog is trained. if he knows his job, the handling is rather simple

 

That makes sense, though without actually being up close and personal, I can only grasp it conceptually.

[terrecar]

I should probably not attempt to answer this, but...I think agility would require quicker physical reflexes, but herding take quicker mental reflexes. I'm talking strictly the handler, not the dog.

 

I'm glad you did! This case would be good news for me.

[juliepoudrier]

Terrecar,

Pam answered your question, but I'll do so a little more fully. Yes straight lines between point A and point B (including the fetch, the drive away and cross drive--where your line is from the post to the center of the drive away panels and then from there to the center of the cross drive panels, then to the pen or shed, and so on). The dog will understand to keep the sheep moving in a direction, but if you want "perfection" of the line, then you will be doing some commanding to help the dog keep the sheep on the straightest course (this is trialing of course). A step or two in one direction or another by the dog can mean the difference between keeping a really straight line or getting some sort of zig zaggy thing going, or worse. But as Paula pointed out, from the human standpoint, that requires quick mental reflexes on your part. In agility, you're actually moving with the dog and directing the course, and as SS Cressa noted, you have a limited time to recover from small errors, all of which requires you not only to think quickly, but also to react (physically) quickly.

 

There are times when you need to think/physically react quickly in trialing too (at the shed and pen), but it's not the whole run....

 

J.

[Kelleybean]

I think it comes down to mental reflexes vs physical reflexes. Agility requires more physical speed on the handlers part than herding.

[gcv-border]

My 2 cents - which will echo much of what has already been posted. (Disclaimer - I do agility with a speedy, driven dog, but have only observed herding runs - many, many times through the years)

 

Mental quickness - probably similar in both endeavors, often requiring split second decisions

 

Physical speed (of the human) - not so much in herding, but depending on the speed of the dog in agility, may require sprinting and rapid starts and stops, but usually only for periods of 30 +/- 10 seconds.

 

Teaching correct handling skills and distance skills in agility can shorten the distance a handler has to travel on a course.

 

The dog's personality can also affect handling on an agility course. If you have a happy, but less speedy (although not necessarily slow) dog, you will have more time to make mental decisions on the agility course and to recover from mistakes. These types of dogs are really fun to run. Whereas, a dog who runs a course as if his life depended on it, has zero tolerance for handler mistakes since only close to perfection will result in a qualifying run. It is a lot of pressure and extremely challenging, but very satisfying when done right.

 

Jovi

[Root Beer]

If you aren't looking to make the world team, become famous, or seek only the most prestigious titles in the sport, I don't believe that some degree of impairment of reflexes would necessarily prevent one from enjoying Agility.

 

Some degree of good reflexes are needed at times to provide the body language that the dog needs to get to the right place, but normally the worst thing that is going to happen if one misses that is that the dog might not complete the course correctly. On the other hand, some degree of lack of physical ability to be where one needs to be can be compensated for through verbal distance training.

 

The biggest danger that might come into play if one lacked reflexes, particularly with a big or very fast Border Collie sized dog is if one lacked the ability to get out of the way of the dog's path, if needed, quickly. Of course, on a perfect run, near collisions aren't happening, but in real life, they can. I can think of a handful of times when Dean has come flying out of the tunnel and I have needed to put getting out of his way over handling for a few seconds!!!

 

I am talking here more about physical reflexes.

 

I've seen physically disabled handlers who aren't running, and who might need extra time to get where they need to be, guide their dogs through courses successfully.

 

Not sure if that answers your question, since I don't know the nature of the medical issue that you are thinking of, but hopefully that is somewhat helpful.

 

The only way to really know would be to give it a try.

[bcnewe2]

I agree with PSmitty. Sheepwork is brains, and as far as I can tell agility is a bit of both but much more physical than sheep work. Unless you are actually doing something hands on with the sheep then it can be quite pyhsical but not as much reflex wise.

[terrecar]

I am actually not interested in competitive agility. The reason I use that as a comparison for reflexes is that I have been up close and personal with an agilty course (strictly for fun), so I know it requires quick reflexes once you add speed and competition to the mix.

 

I LOVE agility as an outlet for my dog, but had I been interested in competition, I would have picked it up when I was hanging out with the owner of my GSD's grandsire back when I was young enough to be quick. She was into agility and titled her dog in both agility and obedience/tracking. I was more interested in the latter, though life got in the way and I never competed.

 

No reflection on the sport of agility, I think it's very cool, just too 'busy' for me when you add a lot of people and other dogs, particularly at an indoor facility. If I were going to pick a sport, it would be obedience or schutzhund, and then only at an outdoor course.

 

As far as being capable of competing successfully in agility, I know my reflexes are not quick enough to 'win ribbons' during a flare up, but they may or may not be when I'm not experiencing symptoms. However, I've won my quota of ribbons and they are pretty meaningless to me at this point, although I think agility is a more noble challenge.

 

My concern with sheepdogging is for the stock and my dog. Period. I care 'eff all' about competing for the sake of 'winning' in a competitive sense. I also have no interest in taking on the responsibility of breeding dogs. I've seen enough discarded pets for a lifetime. I have no interest in wearing big hats. By reasonably successful I mean able to respectably complete an N/N course initially and an Open course at some point.

 

Also, if my condition would in any way compromise the safety of the animals, I would not even think about it. It is not of that nature at this point. My mental reflexes are not affected. My motor reflexes are, and those symptoms are mild but significant enough to impede activities that require rapid physical movements (thanks PSmitty for helping me clarify that).

Edited August 4, 2012 by terrecar

[Eileen Stein]

As for which requires best reflexes, depends on how the dog is trained. if he knows his job, the handling is rather simple

 

Oh, that's good to hear. Then in another 20+ years I might have a chance of mastering it, despite my slow reflexes?

[Eileen Stein]

Also, if my condition would in any way compromise the safety of the animals, I would not even think about it. It is not of that nature at this point. My mental reflexes are not affected. My motor reflexes are, and those symptoms are mild but significant enough to impede activities that require rapid physical movements (thanks PSmitty for helping me clarify that).

 

When you say "motor reflexes," do you mean body movements only, or would the speed with which you could translate perceptions into verbal or whistled commands be affected too? Also, does your question include training your dog as well as handling it in trials, or handling only?

[bcnewe2]

I was at a small arena trial last weekend. There was a man there than used to be a musher. He suffered some injuries due to an accident of some kind. He didn't look to steady on his feet. But he competed in the trial all the same.

I also knew an old fella (since has passed) that would be out there with a golf cart working and training his dogs. His old body didn't keep him down to much, or at least he kept trying. Probably kept him alive for longer than he would have had he not loved his dogs and the art of sheepdogging.

I had the pleasure of seeing CJ Greer last weekend too. He's 80 something I think. This was his first time not participating in this small arena trial, only cause he fell down some steps and broke some parts. He was wheel chair bound otherwise I think he'd of been out there! You could see how much he missed participating but he did do all the commentary so he was still involved.

 

I would think if you have a disability that comes and goes (such as MS) if you were having a bad day you would grab some help if needed or maybe even skip sheep work for that day. If it's a good day...then the Sky's the limit!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Would-be Competitors,

 

I've seen a wheelchair bound handler place in the Scottish nursery Finals. JM Wilson competed with a walker - rocking back when the dog needed to pass close.

 

That said, understanding the dog/sheep/course/you gestalt and reacting in tenths of a second is necessary to compete at the highest levels and Novice/novice was designed to approximate a sheepdog trial (most n/n dogs would be perfectly useful farm chore dogs) and n/n isn't easy at all. At one Highland trial, Sam Furman's novice novice score (60) was High in Trial until the third open dog ran.

 

Donald McCaig

[terrecar]

When you say "motor reflexes," do you mean body movements only, or would the speed with which you could translate perceptions into verbal or whistled commands be affected too?

 

That's a good question. It is mostly body movements, but I do experience some very mild disorientation with a particularly bad episode, so it might impact other types of motor reflexes. The good news is that I can tell when things are begining to go awry before it gets to that point; it either starts as general malaise or there are other mild symptoms initially. So, I could avoid putting myself into a position that would require reflexes of that nature during that time.

 

I'm not being coy about the condition; I don't know what it is. I am seeing a neurologist. MS is a remote possibility, but it took 4 years for a family member to get that diagnosis.

 

Also, does your question include training your dog as well as handling it in trials, or handling only?

 

Mostly handling but training as well.

[Root Beer]

No reflection on the sport of agility, I think it's very cool, just too 'busy' for me when you add a lot of people and other dogs, particularly at an indoor facility. If I were going to pick a sport, it would be obedience or schutzhund, and then only at an outdoor course.

 

Not to say that you should do Agility, but if one (someone else) were interested and those two factors were the only thing holding him or her back, both of those things can be gotten around quite nicely. While many Agility enthusiasts prefer indoor venues, there are outdoor trials. There are also very small outdoor trials. Granted, those might not be available everywhere. I know there are areas where all trials pack 'em in, but I've definitely been to more than a few very small outdoor Agility trials. I like them.

 

And if even small crowds aren't your thing, there are video options now, as well, like VALOR. Not for everyone, although many absolutely love it, but if one really wanted to do Agility but just did not want to be around other people and dogs, it's an option.

 

Again, I am not trying to convince you to do Agility in saying that. It just might be useful information for someone. I did get the impression, from your original post, that you were considering trying Agility, but I understand now that you were asking for the comparison for other reasons.