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Dirty Little Secret


Amelia

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Hi Amelia,

 

Thank you for speaking out against this "dirty little secret" that is used by some "trainers" to train stockdogs. Indie is indeed a lucky girl to now be with you, and best wishes for her future as a sheepdog!

 

Regards,

nancy

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Journey, if you or anyone else wants to know which so-called trainer I'm referring to, call or email me privately. bordersmith@sbcglobal.net 760.505.1553.

 

I don't think it's appropriate to name names on this board, but I'm happy to do it in private. If Eileen says it's OK, and doesn't think I'll get sued, I'll be glad to provide a name here.

 

Cheers all, and thanks for your support.

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As a novice, I appreciate you bringing this forward. I will be sending my young dog off for training in the spring and I will be asking a lot of questions despite the fact that the trainer we are going to is well known and came highly recommended.

 

This breaks my heart. Thank you so much for helping this precious girl.

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Poor Indie. Her pix make me cry. They remind me of the first pic I ever saw of my Gilly-- the sideways glance, lips pulled back, pressed down to the ground. I don't know what happened to Gil before I got her [i heard stories] but she was afraid of her own shadow too.

 

I am happy that Indie will have you to help her learn to live and work without fear.

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I met a trainer who used shock collars on his dogs routinely, and encouraged others to do so. Most of those dogs involved were nervous, dirty and frequent grippers. Six months or so after a clinic involving a trainer who did not use shock collars, you could hardly recognize these same dogs - the gripping was gone, the dogs worked well and calmly, the dogs had an air of confidence.

 

This was a testament to me that strongly spoke against the use of "electronic training devices" - name some folks use to make them sound like high-tech tools of the future and not nasty implements.

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When I lived in AR it seemed to be pretty common place for some of the good ol boys to use shock collars. Never did see a dog work right after one was used on them. Poor dogs.

Glad you are now helping this dog find it's self again.

 

If I have to resort to a shock collar to train a dog, that'll be the day I retire from dogs altogether.

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I had never met a dog that had been trained with one until I moved to the Midwest. Then I ran at a trial where a number of shock collar trained dogs were competing. They were sadly easy to pick out from the rest; mechanical and shut down. I couldn't see the real dogs underneath the training. I am sure you could achieve those same results without a collar by just badgering the dogs constantly, but they allow the trainers to reach their goal faster.

 

Of course, why anyone would want a dog like that is beyond my understanding...

 

There are probably some trainers out there who can use them effectively, but most people have such poor timing and understanding of how dogs learn that they use the tool in a devistatingly incorrect way.

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And some dogs are very grovelly without the use of a shock collar. I got a very under socialized dog that looks very similar to the photos and I know she never had a shock collar on her. She had been harshly treated ona choke chain a few times but that was it. And it took her a few trips to sheep to perk up.

 

I do see a fair number of dogs trained via collars. I've also seen a very few good results for particular problems but more often than not as Liz said the dogs simply are mechanical

 

As for the hanging tree dogs-that might be for the protection of the livestock

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I'm disheartened by what I interpret as acceptance of shock collars from a few of you. Excuses are the reason the torture persists.

 

I am sure you could achieve those same results without a collar by just badgering the dogs constantly, but they allow the trainers to reach their goal faster.

 

The "same results" would be a frightened, confused dog that is unable to live up to its potential without timely intervention. Instead of "badgering" a dog, better to train one with patience and insight, and "faster" is never a better option in sheepdog training. A shortcut will always cause important elements to be left out, and aberrant behavior to occur. Every time.

 

There are probably some trainers out there who can use them effectively, but most people have such poor timing and understanding of how dogs learn that they use the tool in a devistatingly incorrect way.

 

No trainer can use them effectively, because no matter your timing, the process will injure the dog, many times beyond repair.

 

Aren't most Hanging Tree dogs trained with shock collars?

 

Here is a really good example of extrememly poor breeding choices. If this statement is true, why then would anybody breed, buy or own a Hanging Tree dog, knowing that they would have to torture their dog? If the only way I could work my dog without injury to my livestock was to put it in a shock collar, I wouldn't.

 

I do see a fair number of dogs trained via collars.

 

And it's heartbreaking to imagine that you just stand by and watch dogs being tortured?

 

I've also seen a very few good results for particular problems but more often than not as Liz said the dogs simply are mechanical

 

For every perceived "good results" there will be detrimental effects, like mistrust and outright fear. That can never be "good." Mechanical is way too nice a term to associate with this topic. Let's try impotent or damaged, but mechanical does not even approach the destruction to a dog's psyche when shocking occurs.

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Please go back and read my post again. I didn't say they were GOOD results, just that they are the results of a training method. Some trainers want the results they get from using a shock collar and believe they are desireable. I personally don't agree with using a shock collar and am distressed by the results I have seen.

 

My point that there MIGHT be some trainers who know how to use one stems from the fact that I've seen just about every tool on the market used to damage dogs. Dogs can be shut down with flat collars, long lines, whips, rakes or even with a voice. However, many trainers use those same tools to mold happy, well adjusted working dogs.

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Whoa Amelia, I think you're misinterpreting what people have written. You don't want to out the person who used a shock collar on Indie, but then you choose to chastise others who have posted for not stepping up and saying something (even though I didn't get the sense from anything posted that anyone has actually seen a shock collar in use, but rather only the end result)? Have you directly confronted the person you refuse to name publicly? I pointed out that I have seen photos of HT cowdogs that seem to be wearing shock collars (Google it and look at some of the websites; they're either shock collars or bark collars; I don't know enough about either to tell the difference). That doesn't mean I condone the practice. I was simply illustrating that it is commonplace enough in some circles, and that those folks at least don't mind posting pictures on the web for the world to see. At least anyone buying a HT dog or sending a dog there for training would know up front (or be deliberately blind to) what's being done in training. If no one is willing to name names (and this is pretty common in the sheepdog community for all sorts of abuses, not just shock collars, IMO), then we certainly can't warn people away from the abusers can we? All we can do is speculate about who it might be. For my part, if anyone asks me about any trainer I think is abusive, I tell them flat out what I think and why. I think that's all anyone can really do, unless folks are willing to step up and speak out publicly against people who use them.

 

J.

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I think naming names and saying very specific things in person or via phone or email communications -- which Amelia has stated she is willing to do -- are quite different than posting names on internet forums. I know Amelia well and she is someone who is always willing to speak very forthrightly and help people find the training they are looking for. If it were just one person in North America doing it, naming the name could solve the problem. But this is a warning to be heard by sheepdoggers everywhere, not just in southern California. Vergil Holland's essay says it perfectly, and he's 2,000 miles away.

 

As I see it, the take-home lesson of this thread is that shock collar training is out there, you might be surprised how frequently, don't make any assumptions, and ask ALL the questions before you entrust your dog's training to someone you don't know extremely well. And when you encounter it, speak out against it.

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