Debbie Meier Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10443831-1.html www.foxnews.com/.../peta-wants-punxsutawney-phil-replaced-robot-groundhog/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 I always knew the folks at PETA were a bunch of loonies. We have new neighbors (about 6-7 months) in the rental house next door and they belong to HUS and PETA. We are constantly bomnbarded by gflyers in our mailbox about how we're being cruel to animals. I am reminded by Todd or Gloria (neighbors) every time I go out with Jin in a vest and harness. The funny thing is their kids like to come over and play with Abby and Jin. Don't forget PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 I'm not a fan of peta by any stretch of the imagination, but I can see where they are coming from on this one - animals who are put on display can be seen as inanimate objects a little too easily for my liking. Kind of like sheep being used as "toys" in some places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 I always knew the folks at PETA were a bunch of loonies. We have new neighbors (about 6-7 months) in the rental house next door and they belong to HUS and PETA. We are constantly bomnbarded by gflyers in our mailbox about how we're being cruel to animals. I am reminded by Todd or Gloria (neighbors) every time I go out with Jin in a vest and harness. The funny thing is their kids like to come over and play with Abby and Jin. Don't forget PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals. If you want to stop them putting flyers in your mailbox, you can point out that it is illegal to put anything in there that doesn't have correct postage (incoming or outgoing) and is either coming or going by USPS (that's simplified). And, they should have no right to come on your property if you ask them not to do so, so that could put a stop to the flyers. However, you could be nasty and just make a complaint. It would probably just be better off to ignore/dump the flyers and keep the kids - they might learn a lot from you in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 If Phil doesn't predict an early spring tomorrow morning, they might need that robot! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Sorry guys, I agree with PETA on this one If Phil is being treated the way this article suggests, then it IS cruel and an alternative would be more appropriate. Just because it is a groundhog (not a dog) doesn't mean it deserves any less respect and shouldn't be able to live a natural life free from harm. Just because we CAN does not mean we should DO Disclaimer: I am not a member of PETA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 If Phil is being treated the way this article suggests "If" being the operative word. It is PETA after all. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 PETA succeeded; it made headlines and we're discussing them again. It brought itself above the white noise level of the news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 If Phil is being treated the way this article suggests "If" being the operative word. It is PETA after all. Well, this is what the article says about Phil's treatment: "put on display year-round at the local Pennsylvania library; denied the ability to prepare for and enter yearly hibernation; and forced to endure screaming throngs of thousands, media attention, and human handling." Is there any reason to think any of that isn't true? I just saw a TV clip of him being handled in which it was said that thousands of people were present, and they were certainly screaming. It doesn't seem to me that the upside of this groundhog display is so huge that suggesting a more humane alternative to it is that outrageous. Or that stimulating a discussion of whether it's humane or cruel is sad. I wish someone other than PETA had raised the question, but then, that doesn't seem to happen too often, which is why PETA garners whatever public approval it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I worked with a groundhog at an educational nature center. He had been hit by a car and could not be released back into the wild. It didn't take him long at all to become tame and capable of working with groups of children as an educational animal. I used to be his handler for those sessions. He really didn't care that the kids were looking at him or talking in excited voices as long as he was getting his treats of fresh fruit. In fact, he loved a good scratch under his chin from anyone who was willing. I never saw any signs of being fearful or distressed. Many of these sessions happened outside and he was not leashed or contained in any way. He was free to run off into the woods if he wanted. He chose to investigate the kids and eat his food. I don't know anything about how Phil is being kept or handled, but he may not be nearly as distressed as some people are thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Just out of curiosity, Liz, did your groundhog behave differently in the winter when it would normally have been hibernating? I wonder what effect, if any, it has on a groundhog not to hibernate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Liz, Do groundhogs require hibernation if they are kept in climate control enviroments with regular feeding? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Eileen I haven't seen the set up, so I can't offer an opinion on whether it is stressful or not. But, yes, screaming people is upsetting- even to me. What about dogs barking when working sheep? Wouldn't that also be considered pretty upsetting/stressful to the sheep? Worse, in some ways, because dogs are predators. Not sure what humans are to Groundhogs... As to display- what about Zoos? Same deal right? How about caged animals- same thing (I am talking more rodents, birds here). As to allowing the animal to prepare and enter hibernation- that occurs late fall, early winter, and entire purpose of hibernation is to allow the animal to survive the winter, where there is a lack of food, by reducing his/her metabolism. It has been shown in some bears even, that depending on the weather (and I am talking wild bears) some bears chose not to hibernate, if there is sufficient food. I have to say, I am not for certain exploitations of animals (Sea World is a biggy), but I think this is yet another weak attempt by PETA to grab a headline for itself. "If" being the operative word. It is PETA after all. Well, this is what the article says about Phil's treatment: "put on display year-round at the local Pennsylvania library; denied the ability to prepare for and enter yearly hibernation; and forced to endure screaming throngs of thousands, media attention, and human handling." Is there any reason to think any of that isn't true? I just saw a TV clip of him being handled in which it was said that thousands of people were present, and they were certainly screaming. It doesn't seem to me that the upside of this groundhog display is so huge that suggesting a more humane alternative to it is that outrageous. Or that stimulating a discussion of whether it's humane or cruel is sad. I wish someone other than PETA had raised the question, but then, that doesn't seem to happen too often, which is why PETA garners whatever public approval it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I can answer that- no. Liz, Do groundhogs require hibernation if they are kept in climate control enviroments with regular feeding? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 but I think this is yet another weak attempt by PETA to grab a headline for itself. you make this sound like a bad thing? for all the good work they do to bring about awareness about animal rights and animal welfare issues i think we can give them a pass every now and then for going over the top anal regardless, it has been proven time and time again that the media warps the message peta is trying to portray anyway - ESPECIALLY fox news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Just out of curiosity, Liz, did your groundhog behave differently in the winter when it would normally have been hibernating? I wonder what effect, if any, it has on a groundhog not to hibernate. This one did not hibernate but he did sleep a lot more in the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 I haven't seen the set up, so I can't offer an opinion on whether it is stressful or not. But, yes, screaming people is upsetting- even to me. What about dogs barking when working sheep? Wouldn't that also be considered pretty upsetting/stressful to the sheep? Worse, in some ways, because dogs are predators. Not sure what humans are to Groundhogs... As to display- what about Zoos? Same deal right? How about caged animals- same thing (I am talking more rodents, birds here). Well, it seems to me that unless you're on the doctrinaire extremes (i.e., you believe anything done to an animal is wrong, or you believe nothing done to an animal is wrong), then you need to weigh the benefits against the harm -- as well as the alternatives -- to decide what's okay. In this case, the benefits seem minimal and it sounds like the harm is minimal too. So it doesn't seem to me that it matters much either way, although I guess if it were up to me I'd leave the little bugger alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Based upon what I have learned from the Terrierman (in person and on his website) about living conditions, lifespans, and likley casues of death of wild groundhogs; the Phils have VERY good lives. Groundhog Mortality The oldest reported wild groundhog lived to be six and a half years old, but that's unusual. The average life span is only one year. However, if they survive the first dangerous year, adults do have a reasonable chance at living several years or more. Although predation is a major cause of groundhog death, there is another situation just as dangerous. Over-winter mortality, that is, death during hibernation, is a common fate. Simply, many groundhogs go into hibernation and never come out. The young in particular seem to be affected the most. A larger proportion of adults emerge from hibernation than do young of the previous year. It isn't certain exactly why groundhogs die in hibernation. If the young animals were simply starving in their dens, it would stand to reason that the ones that do survive would show some sign of malnourishment. However, yearlings that emerge in the spring rarely seem emaciated, so it isn't starvation alone that is killing them. Disease could be a factor. Free-ranging groundhogs often harbor bacteria that has been associated with lethal pneumonias. It is significant that a high incidence of bronchopneumonia is common in groundhogs in late winter and early spring, after hibernation; it could be that the moist, unventilated conditions in the underground dens help the disease flourish. Groundhogs also suffer from other diseases, among them the hepatitus B virus. In all probability, underweight or undernourished groundhogs are more susceptible to these diseases. Under natural conditions, says Barash, it appears that hibernation is induced by food deprivation. This effect is seasonal too; whereas it takes three or four weeks to starve a groundhog into hibernation in the summer, it can take only three or four hours in winter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Did you know that there are legitimate groups out there that defend/protect animals? Groups that do not engage in all the garbage that PETA does? PETA is NOT an animal welfare group, PULEEZE do not use welfare and rights interchangeably. PETA is warped itself. The media does not have to help it. you make this sound like a bad thing? for all the good work they do to bring about awareness about animal rights and animal welfare issues i think we can give them a pass every now and then for going over the top anal regardless, it has been proven time and time again that the media warps the message peta is trying to portray anyway - ESPECIALLY fox news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 The wild groundhogs on our property are quite accustomed to us and our dogs. We can get within a few feet of them before they run off and they are not disturbed by loud noises (yelling, clapping our hands, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Mark We have a few at work, one in particular I have dubbed "Elvis" because he is a chunky fellow, and he seems to disappear, and reappear frequently. I have also seen a family, well, two adults, and one chublet hanging out together. The wild groundhogs on our property are quite accustomed to us and our dogs. We can get within a few feet of them before they run off and they are not disturbed by loud noises (yelling, clapping our hands, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Did you know that there are legitimate groups out there that defend/protect animals? Groups that do not engage in all the garbage that PETA does? PETA is NOT an animal welfare group, PULEEZE do not use welfare and rights interchangeably. PETA is warped itself. The media does not have to help it. HA! that's why i separated out rights and welfare - because i DO know the difference unlike a lot of other people and i believe i said "to bring about awareness". i am fully aware they are *predominantly* an animal rights group but they DO deal with animal welfare issues all the time as well. yes, i know of MANY different groups...some i belong to as an activist, thanks it's like what eileen said above - you have to weigh the costs and benefits - and BIG PICTURE - PETA does A LOT more good than harm. how can i bring myself to hate a group that can do what they do to bring about needed change in our society surrounding such important issues...even if, like i said before, they can sometimes go over the top anal and on a final note: they are one of the few groups who never have to back-peddle and always provide the same consistent messaging in what they fight for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 - you have to weigh the costs and benefits - and BIG PICTURE - PETA does A LOT more good than harm.I disagree. I believe you must also take a hard look at a group's ideology and consider this as much as their actions. History is filled with examples of groups whose ideology clearly indicated there will be problems even though there were periods when their actions "did more good than harm". BTW "did more good than harm" is highly subjective and dependent upon ones point of view; life (and history) is funny thay way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 I disagree. I believe you must also take a hard look at a group's ideology and consider this as much as their actions. History is filled with examples of groups whose ideology clearly indicated there will be problems even though there were periods when their actions "did more good than harm". BTW "did more good than harm" is highly subjective and dependent upon ones point of view; life (and history) is funny thay way. interesting point mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thanks, Mark, for making those points so succinctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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