When to know to perservere or quit agility with young bc!

[Conner22]

Aslan, my "other" bc.... (NOT CONNER)

He IS NOT competing, just training.

 

I don't know if its maturity? Or what.

He was spayed at 1yr. He has had his entire lower half (including whole spine) xrayed to determine why he had problems jumping (at 1 year and at 1yr 9mo). He jumps like a HD (hip dysplastic) dog. ortho says rear end is fine, just not built for power. The massage therapist says his rear end doesnt have good muscle/substance. So I work alot on building up power, and thru his entire life (including puppyhood) he has done rear end awareness excersizes (to little effect)- as in he can do the excersize, but does not generalize the idea in his life.

He's been raised on Linda Mecklinberg's style of jumping training- which teaches proper form, jumping in an arc, using rear end to push off.

I've got his muscles built up, but he still struggles. We are talking with having to repeat an excersize a few times (in which he finally *gets it* after I break it down to baby steps) and then if i change ONE element, he stresses a bit and has to start baby steps all over.

Simple things, like if I'm sending him to a target (he loves his tug toy)- he has to be directed every time. So I try to send him to a food target- even tho the food is in the SAME spot every time, good contrast to floor, large amount HE STILL has to be directed to it EVERY TIME. He has a difficult time patterning, and if you change the pattern by one- it really throws him off. Like have him jump 3 jumps in a row. You have to walk him to every jump, have him jump, then work up til 2 jumps, then to the 3 jumps. He'll do it 10 times succesfully, but if i change ONE jump height from 16 to 20 (or visa versa)- I have to start all over from zero. Then he'll do its succesfully 10 times....etc.

For myself (with him) I use the clicker, and firm-confident praise/orders. This works best with him by far. He cannot handle any type of correction, or being wrong! So if he "messes" up, its not corrected, I just take the excersize one level down til he gets it, and I build up to the full excersize.

Is this maturity? Or just a bad match for a skill like agility? He's a very happy dog, always upbeat, very friendly outgoing. Very drivey (intense) type border collie.

[Root Beer]

Why not take a break and try something else with him for a while? Then go back to it and see how he does.

[Rave]

For whatever reason, it sounds like agility is too stressful for him at this time. I'd take a break from it altogether and work on building his confidence in other ways. I'd suggest trying out herding, provided you can find an instructor who's good with soft dogs.

[herdcentral]

I have come to the conclusion that not all BCs are cut out for agility. My young BC is a quick learner, but she loses enthusiasm very quickly. She also cannot handle correction. I am also not the most experienced handler and with her you have to be right all the time. Any handling error on my part and she immediately demotivates.

 

She does nice flowing rounds at trials but is hardly the speed queen and seems to struggle after more than a couple of runs I also thought she was struggling with her jumping and someone commented to me about her power from her back end lacking, they thought she may have a back problem.

 

Had her checked by an orthovet who told me there was nothing wrong. Certainly when she is out chasing rabbits on the farm and playing she is full of power and drive.

 

She has improved over time, she is now nearly 3, but I suspect that agility is not really her thing. When I get my sheep ssorted out I may try her with herding and see how she goes.

 

My old retired agility dog has a complete joy for agility and cannot get enough. She lights up at the thought of going to train agility with me and was a fabulous trialing dog. She seemed to click with it in a way that my young BC never has.

 

I have noticed at agility that some of the top handlers have on occassions quit agility with several young BCs who were just not into it.

 

I think a break can help.

[diane allen]

How old is the dog now?

 

I have a friend who's dog sounds like yours - does well to a point, but change one itty bitty thing, and it completely throws him off.

 

I think a break might be a good thing - as hard as that is!

 

diane

[Debbie Meier]

It doesn't sound like agility comes naturally for him, thinking that it could be simular to jumping horses, they all jump but some do it better then others. Depending on his age I might let him get more age, I have had dogs that didn't seem all that athletic then suddenly around the age of 3-4 it came to them.

 

We just had an inquiry on an upcoming litter from someone that wants a frisbee dog, I told him that if his heart was set on having a dog that is a super jumper to not consider our lines, we get very few that are keen jumpers, they are better at being sliders, divers and hover crafts. Our heelers, well that's a different story they are sky dogs, especially when compared to our border collies.

[jenkshipley]

He has had his entire lower half (including whole spine) xrayed to determine why he had problems jumping (at 1 year and at 1yr 9mo). He jumps like a HD (hip dysplastic) dog. ortho says rear end is fine, just not built for power. I've got his muscles built up, but he still struggles. We are talking with having to repeat an excersize a few times (in which he finally *gets it* after I break it down to baby steps) and then if i change ONE element, he stresses a bit and has to start baby steps all over.

 

Struggles how? Knocking jumps or motivation? What are the behaviors he is exhibiting that lets you know he is stressing out?

 

How old is he? When did you start training?

 

If he loves his tug toy, why are you using food targets? Is he food motivated?

 

Is this maturity? Or just a bad match for a skill like agility? He's a very happy dog, always upbeat, very friendly outgoing. Very drivey (intense) type border collie.

 

He is drivey when? In what circumstances, doing what activity?

 

In my experience with my own dogs and some previous students/friends dogs I have worked with, drive for agility can always be built. The trick is to find the right motivator for the dog and to create a fun and positive experience in training for the dog. Often this means training out of the box, not following criteria from a specific trainer or not following a specific training plan but instead using each training session to determine where training goes next.

 

A Border Collie is not forgetting where the target with food on it is placed. He is either not food motivated or has decided that the food target is stressful for some reason. It is hard to even have a clue what is going on without watching or meeting the dog or watching you train him. Can you video tape and post to the list?

 

A break in training followed by a completely different approach might be in order. As for rear end power, I have a dysplastic dog who is now 11 who could literally jump over my head and pick a Frisbee out of the air when she was younger and who could clear a 4 foot aframe from a stand still. If your dog does not have structural issues, his rear end is not the issue here.

 

I would recommend working through some of Susan Salo's early jumping exercises after the break. They are low height and very specifically engineered to teach jumping without pressure. They teach a dog to take a jump while in stride something the Linda's method does not do initially and something which I feel may help a less confident jumping dog gain confidence and learn without stress. I used a lot of Linda M.'s training approaches and a lot of what she does to introduce jumping, but I also work quite a bit of Susan's exercises as well.

 

Send us video if you can of your dog in motion and some training.

 

Jen

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

[Root Beer]

Upon reflection, I decided to give some further input!!

 

Aslan, my "other" bc.... (NOT CONNER)

He IS NOT competing, just training.

 

I don't know if its maturity? Or what.

 

That's the thing, you don't know! You could do a lot of work with Aslan and find out in the long run that Agility is not the appropriate sport for him.

 

On the other hand, it is possible that drive and motivation can be built and a time will come when he enjoys it.

 

There is no way to know.

 

So I work alot on building up power, and thru his entire life (including puppyhood) he has done rear end awareness excersizes (to little effect)- as in he can do the excersize, but does not generalize the idea in his life.

He's been raised on Linda Mecklinberg's style of jumping training- which teaches proper form, jumping in an arc, using rear end to push off.

 

Since you aren't getting the results you want with Mecklenberg's program, you might consider putting him through the Susan Salo foundation jumping program. Maybe something in that program might fill in a hole in his understanding, or provide additional motivation.

 

I've got his muscles built up, but he still struggles. We are talking with having to repeat an excersize a few times (in which he finally *gets it* after I break it down to baby steps) and then if i change ONE element, he stresses a bit and has to start baby steps all over.

 

That might be part of what is going on here - stress. I have a dog whose jumping is affected by stress.

 

Dean is a fantastic jumper and if he is comfortable, he jumps with drive, power, and control and it is gorgeous to watch. But, if he is stressed, jumping is the first thing to go. When he is stressed, the muscles in his back legs tense up. I believe that keeping his feet on the ground makes him feel more secure, and he's not really in the right physical state to jump if his back leg muscles are tight.

 

Based on that, I would recommend that you keep the jumps super low for quite a while. You can raise them gradually as you go along and his comfort level starts to build. If changing one element causes him to stress, then don't change anything until he becomes more confident.

 

I know that is very tedious and frustrating, but I have found that it works. When the dog is really ready for more, I can tell.

 

Simple things, like if I'm sending him to a target (he loves his tug toy)- he has to be directed every time. So I try to send him to a food target- even tho the food is in the SAME spot every time, good contrast to floor, large amount HE STILL has to be directed to it EVERY TIME.

 

Have you worked on sending him to targets in different locations without a jump in the picture? Some dogs need to learn this skill. If he's stressed about jumping, it makes sense that he's not making a mental note of where the target is.

 

I would recommend using the toy here, though, if he loves it. If he needs to be directed, so be it. He'll get the hang of it eventually.

 

He has a difficult time patterning, and if you change the pattern by one- it really throws him off. Like have him jump 3 jumps in a row. You have to walk him to every jump, have him jump, then work up til 2 jumps, then to the 3 jumps. He'll do it 10 times succesfully, but if i change ONE jump height from 16 to 20 (or visa versa)- I have to start all over from zero. Then he'll do its succesfully 10 times....etc.

 

This is why I think that taking a break and doing something else might help him. Maybe try Rally. That has done Dean a world of good with his Agility work. Or a tricks type of class. Something where he will have a chance to learn the skill of adjusting to a small change in criteria.

 

If you choose not to take a break, another approach that you can take is working on those patterns with no change for several weeks at a time. So, for a couple of weeks, it's three jumps at 16. If you do this every single time you train for several weeks, he will likely become less concerned about it, and more proficient, and then you can introduce a small change and see how it goes.

 

For myself (with him) I use the clicker, and firm-confident praise/orders. This works best with him by far. He cannot handle any type of correction, or being wrong! So if he "messes" up, its not corrected, I just take the excersize one level down til he gets it, and I build up to the full excersize.

 

I was taking this same approach with Dean (without the firm orders, since I take a different approach to cueing) and he was still stressing. I found that building his confidence with non-Agility behaviors and changes of criteria was the key to helping him build drive for learning Agility skills.

 

Is this maturity? Or just a bad match for a skill like agility? He's a very happy dog, always upbeat, very friendly outgoing. Very drivey (intense) type border collie.

 

My inclination, based on what you've written, is that he may be doing too much too soon.

 

How is he with the other pieces of equipment? Tunnels? Contacts? Weaves? Are you seeing any of the same sort of stress when you change those around?

 

It is probably possible to build his understanding of and appreciation for Agility. It might take a very different approach, though. That's why I suggested a break and trying something else. If you change some things about the way that you handle him, and he comes to understand some different things about the training process, you might find the key to building his confidence in Agility.

 

I hope that helps!

[ziggzmom]

He has had his entire lower half (including whole spine) xrayed to determine why he had problems jumping (at 1 year and at 1yr 9mo). He jumps like a HD (hip dysplastic) dog. ortho says rear end is fine, just not built for power. The massage therapist says his rear end doesnt have good muscle/substance. So I work alot on building up power, and thru his entire life (including puppyhood) he has done rear end awareness excersizes (to little effect)- as in he can do the excersize, but does not generalize the idea in his life.

 

 

Hi,

 

This probably isn't his problem, but have you had his vision checked by a specialist(just to rule out this posibility)?

 

Janet

[Conner22]

Hi,

 

This probably isn't his problem, but have you had his vision checked by a specialist(just to rule out this posibility)?

 

Janet

 

 

Ok, thats freaky- this has been mentioned before! He seems to see fine, but sometimes not- like you are not sure if he is totally aware of stuff or just not paying attention. My dad sometimes questions his vision (even tho he seems fine). I'll get this done.

[Mariji]

If he's such a soft dog then try not giving him "orders" as such. Just be happy and playful, nothing about agility should be a chore. If he does it right once or twice then end with a game instead of getting him to do it 10 times then starting over when he stuffs up. He could lose his confidence and not want to do it anymore. I did this with my oldest and the seesaw, i have since learnt and sessions are kept short and when end the second she gets it right the 2nd time just do we know it wasn't a fluke.

[Conner22]

Struggles how? Knocking jumps or motivation? What are the behaviors he is exhibiting that lets you know he is stressing out?

He struggles with getting it. Like he LOVES to overthink things. For example, with contacts, he does 2o2o (since 3 months he does 2o2o). When we are practising a contact, he will drive up/down the contact, but when he reaches the 2o2o spot, he slows way down, you litterally see his brain working as he carefully tries to "remember" the exact spot/placement. WHen doing ladder work, the first time (even tho he's done this since about 4 months) he very carefully focuses and moves very careful. Then quickly picks up the pace and is trotting thru the ladder properly. He also has issues "generalizing" I think is what it's considered. Like when I do rear end awareness training- i dont see ANY improvement in rear end usage in typical life. In agility class, the rear end awareness only helps (but makes a big difference) for that ONE class (if i do a session right before i start). He'll stride nice, good takeoff/landing, proper jumping. But if I DON'T do rear end awareness before class, he'll be a "mess" and jump sloppy. ALthough I'd classify him as intelligent and easy to train. he has all his "basic tricks" down pat. : Come, down, stand, sit, roll over, stay, sit pretty, play bow, shake off, heel, shake hands, bring up your toy, etc etc

We've been off on a two month break, but when he was in class, by the end of the session it was "information overload" and he'd quit (just not do agility) or do poorly. We started learning his "quit" cues and would end maybe 10 min early on positive note. he'd go from running a short sequence to refusing to jump, going around a jump, ignore the course and jump on me wiggling all over.

As for stressing behaviors: He does the wiggly movement, moves very slow, jumps up on me, looks worried, refuses to jump, jumps poorly, OR knocks a bar and comes over for "reassurance", or just downright quits and trots off.

 

 

How old is he? When did you start training?

 

Started at 3 months- with basics. Did low jump work around 8 months. Did full height (16") at a little over a year because growth plates had closed. Also to work up his power in rear end, did alot of single jump work. He is NOW almost 2yrs(march)

 

If he loves his tug toy, why are you using food targets? Is he food motivated?

He is both motivated. i was working a susan salo excersize, in which dog is SENT to something. he would not send, he would always just check in after excersize, quite happy with himself. I was trying different things to get him to send to TARGET (not me). Not very successfully either. I would direct every time, and he would get toy/food happy, but I had to direct him, as he was busy "checking in" with me. Actually technically speaking, I had to completely shape the susan salo excersize. It was her basic excersize grid, with one set point (at 8 inch) 4ft away from "one" jump (2 jumps put together like a double). I had to click in order to get the "right" bounce btwn set point and jump. every time i changed a jump height Aslan first had to take the jump, THEN start at set point, other wise he'd go around the jump. Even tho excersize asks you send a dog to a target, he would not go to a target, and relied alot on my movement forward to have proper speed into excersize (stride/bounce). If i did not move, he'd hesitate at the jump, inadvertently messing up the stride as he'd overthink/overcollect. Once i did all this, he'd do the excersize "properly" as in, i was getting the desired behavior. I built up to no handler movement, and my self being distant from the jump.

 

He is drivey when? In what circumstances, doing what activity?

Playing tug, with toys (frisbee/ball) with other dogs, loves herding games, is drivey in agility when he's not stressing or overthinking. At 3 months old he used to "herd" the waves on the shore (to give you an idea). This dog is very EAGER. Can barely (but does) hold a down/stay when doing any of the above mentioned. this dog can tear his pads (bad- all 4) and never even show it till he comes inside.

 

It is hard to even have a clue what is going on without watching or meeting the dog or watching you train him. Can you video tape and post to the list?

Will try to video it. Just a thought tho- I wonder if he is used to considering ME the reward- as in short sequences he'd be rewarded by a tug or treat from ME. I am suspicious that he was viewing the 2 "jumps" (set point and real jump) as a short sequence. And in a short sequence, he'd be relying on handler movement to understand direction and would come in for a reward after jumping.

 

Sorry it took so long for a response. bwn working, internet been down for a day, and yestereday the cat turned off the computer on me when i tried to respond - haha!

[Conner22]

Oh and I started the jump in the susan salo excersize low at 8-12 inches. I was trying to work up to 16" or 20" but never got to 20" as i just wanted the proper behavior more than anything else and I kept having to break everything down into baby steps.

 

Also- when i say "firm " commands i mean calm confident orders in a positive way. Like the way you'd normally say "sit" or "stay". I was trying to clarify that i was not baby talking him (as this often makes a dog who is worried stress more).

[kelpiegirl]

My feeling on this, is that you just need to back off the "criteria" and allow the dog to run. You will be amazed if you do not micro manage, that at first the dog may still lack in enthusiasm, for instance, coming down for the 2 o 2 o, but as you keep trucking, he will let his worry go. Agility is about FUN for the dogs, period. I was big into agility, until I saw a big change coming to the sport, which was micro-managing, and forgetting about the ultimate goal- a fun sport to do with your dog. Competition is a good thing, as long as you keep it all in perspective. Too many people suck the fun out of agility for their dogs by wanting perfection every time. If the dog is not having fun, you are doing something wrong. That's the bottom line.

[Root Beer]

Based on what you write, it really sounds to me like taking a break and doing something else to build more confidence might go a long way toward helping with his Agility. Dean also overthinks things and I've found that stepping away from whatever he is getting himself into a mental tailspin about for several weeks, or even months, always does him a world of good. Of course, we don't do absolutely nothing when taking a break. We do something that he enjoys where he can be successful and is motivated.

 

I am curious about one thing. What would happen if you set up a short sequence - say three jumps and a tunnel - and ran him through it with no bars on the jumps? Would you still have to break it down into babysteps and work up to the full sequence, or could he pretty much do it without the bars?

[kelpiegirl]

Kristine

 

You touch on a good point- you say that you don't do absolutely nothing- what do you mean exactly?

 

Based on what you write, it really sounds to me like taking a break and doing something else to build more confidence might go a long way toward helping with his Agility. Dean also overthinks things and I've found that stepping away from whatever he is getting himself into a mental tailspin about for several weeks, or even months, always does him a world of good. Of course, we don't do absolutely nothing when taking a break. We do something that he enjoys where he can be successful and is motivated.

 

I am curious about one thing. What would happen if you set up a short sequence - say three jumps and a tunnel - and ran him through it with no bars on the jumps? Would you still have to break it down into babysteps and work up to the full sequence, or could he pretty much do it without the bars?

[Root Beer]

Kristine

 

You touch on a good point- you say that you don't do absolutely nothing- what do you mean exactly?

 

I mean that I don't quit training altogether. I might work on tricks or Rally or Freestyle stuff. Or, if it's summer I might do more hiking or swimming or outdoor stuff. I might spend some time doing a lot of free shaping. I might do a confidence building program like Control Unleashed.

 

Whatever I do, I keep it pressure-free and really keep my focus on making sure that the dog is finding the activity/training/etc. to be reinforcing.

[Conner22]

With no bars, and just uprights and tunnels he'd go thru it, and be pretty happy. I think our problem pops up when he wants to overthink- which is pretty much jumping or 2o2o, or handling manuvering.

Say for example i set up 16 and 20 inch jumps 5 in a sequence and add a tunnel and weaves. He'll do well, and then better as we repeat it. BUT if i change something, like if i want to REAR cross a jump and have him do a different sequence (with the same set up), it throws him for a loop and he'll need to be baby stepped up to the rear and new sequence. This is why i get a little baffled with him. one moment he's "good" and drivey, the next he is overthinking. And then he often when overthinking makes a mistake (which is NEVER corrected) but HE knows he 'messed up' (bar drop or something) and it'll throw his entire flow off. (Oh NO!!!!). Which throws his timing and jumping off, and makes him distracted. I get "baffled" because he has this "lack of ability to generalize" even tho he's relatively easy to train. So i wonder what to do with him- do i need to step back, keep trying, etc....!

When we are off of agility i usually just do hiking, frisbee, and trick training. Is this what you are referring to?

THe susan salo excersize (by her standards) would be a disaster- but I was happy with it because at the end he UNDERSTOOD the bounce/stride i wanted. I never thought of it as micromanaging, but you are absoutely right! And if he is a dog that is so worried about "getting it right" i'm sure micromanaging makes it WAY worse! (does that seem right?)

I am "retraining" my other dog conner to jump (focusing on jumping not so much on me) and thought it be good to do aslan as well. I figured if aslan learns young the proper bounce and stride, and also to focus on a task instead of handler focus we'd do well when we started. (and ounce of prevention.....) but it may also be encouraging overthinking what should be a simple proceedure for him right now.

[Conner22]

oh, i should say- i've NEVER tried to run without bars and then switch up the sequence. Its definitely worth a try as he'd only have to focus on the handling, and not so much at once. And maybe after i get the handling down add the bars up??

[Root Beer]

oh, i should say- i've NEVER tried to run without bars and then switch up the sequence. Its definitely worth a try as he'd only have to focus on the handling, and not so much at once. And maybe after i get the handling down add the bars up??

 

Yes. I keep getting the impression over and over and over that you are moving way faster than what your dog is ready to move.

 

I know that it seems like a dog who is "drivey" should progress quickly, but all the drive in the world can't compensate for a lack of confidence. And by confidence, I mean the dog knowing what the job is and knowing that he can do it.

 

I'd focus much, much more on building confidence now. The skills like rear crosses and varying jump heights can come later.

 

Sometimes we are told that we have to do things a certain way or the dog will never "get it". But often we have to adjust to the particular needs of our dogs. It sounds to me like you need to do what you need to do to keep your dog confident right now and save the more advanced skills for later.

 

One last thing that jumped out at me. You said he overthinks his mistakes. If you aren't correcting, how does he know he made a "mistake"? If he knows, then "mistake" is being communicated to him somehow. Is that something that you could remove from your training while you build his confidence?

 

For example, one thing that I do early on with a dog is to teach him that re-doing obstacles is just something that happens. I will purposely re-do a tunnel or something and reward each completion heavily. That shows the dog that re-doing something is not indicative of a mistake. I've gotten comments from people who are surprised that when I have my dogs re-do things in competition, they are not demotivated. That's because they have learned that re-do's are part of the game and they mean nothing.

 

So, with a dog who worried about dropped bars, I would try to find a way to communicate to the dog that dropped bars mean absolutely nothing. Maybe I would set up a jump and tunnel and start with the jump really low and have the dog do the jump and then the tunnel and then play a game of tug. Then I would raise the bar. If it ever dropped, I would simply cue the tunnel and play the game. I wouldn't be the least bit worried about the dog re-doing the jump and keeping the bar up. That will come when the dog is confident. For now I would really help the dog learn that a dropped bar is nothing.

 

After the dog learned that, I would go back to having the dog re-try after resetting the jump. That way, it's training. Not "fixing" a "mistake".

 

Does that make sense? Based on what you describe, something like that might really help him stop worrying so much.

[ShoresDog]

You are getting lots of great input from people who know what they are talking about. I don't know very much at all about agility, but our trainer Shelly does (Shelly's training all of us; she runs with Juno, and me with Daisy). My feeling is that you might want to stop focusing on learning stuff in agility for a while, and just focus on having total fun with it. Later let the learning creep back in. Juno's 22 months old. Here's how she learns -- no firm orders, no corrections, no pressure, just a ton of fun and you get the good toy if you do it right. Juno is hugely enthusiastic, and I credit the "it's all good" atmosphere around her. Look how she keeps trying to get the weaves, and has a ball the whole time --

 

 

If Juno does something wrong, Shelly has no reaction, just goes on around and does it again til it works, e.g., where Juno skips a jump and she just whirls around and has her go right over it. You can see that Juno's having fun, and look how good her weaves got!

 

Juno practicing

 

I guess what I'm advocating for here is making it the most fun thing in the world for your dog, because when it is, he'll just keep trying and trying and technique issues will resolve. When they're so young, there's so much time ahead!

[Conner22]

Yes. I keep getting the impression over and over and over that you are moving way faster than what your dog is ready to move.

 

I know that it seems like a dog who is "drivey" should progress quickly, but all the drive in the world can't compensate for a lack of confidence. And by confidence, I mean the dog knowing what the job is and knowing that he can do it.

 

 

One last thing that jumped out at me. You said he overthinks his mistakes. If you aren't correcting, how does he know he made a "mistake"? If he knows, then "mistake" is being communicated to him somehow. Is that something that you could remove from your training while you build his confidence?

 

The overthinking mistakes- I guess I do mark it, by not praising- so if he gets off the contact and messes up his 2o2o, I dont "praise" him, i just have him jump on from side, THEN reward.... I'm not sure how I'd do it different, but am open to suggestions. For the jumps, when the bar falls- he stresses. This is something he's done since he was younger, and I don't "correct" it, just don't praise it either. Bar drops- he starts looking over shoulder worried- just what he does..."like oops I dont like that...." Typically we just go on and I try NOT to mark it, or I'll put him over it again and give him cookies!

Is this what you are suggesting?

[Root Beer]

The overthinking mistakes- I guess I do mark it, by not praising- so if he gets off the contact and messes up his 2o2o, I dont "praise" him, i just have him jump on from side, THEN reward.... I'm not sure how I'd do it different, but am open to suggestions. For the jumps, when the bar falls- he stresses. This is something he's done since he was younger, and I don't "correct" it, just don't praise it either. Bar drops- he starts looking over shoulder worried- just what he does..."like oops I dont like that...." Typically we just go on and I try NOT to mark it, or I'll put him over it again and give him cookies!

 

Is this what you are suggesting?

 

Well, if that's what you've been doing and he's still stressing, another approach is needed.

 

I know this is a radical idea, but I've done it and find it works. For a while, I'd reward even if the bar drops. I'd actually reward especially if the bar drops. The idea is not to teach him to drop the bar, but teach him that dropping the bar is nothing.

 

One caveat - I would avoid a loud "party" when the bar drops. That approach tends to freak my dogs out! But the same praise or reward you give when he does it just the way you want it.

 

Last winter I took a tricks class with Dean. The nice thing about tricks is that there are no standards to meet. There are no "mistakes". We were working on a pivot into right side heel and Dean was only getting about halfway there. I was using treats, and I kept trying to show him what I wanted and he kept only getting halfway. I asked the instructor if I should click/reward when he only got halfway there. She gave it to me for expecting more of him than he was capable of giving. She said that I needed to do what I needed to do to make Dean comfortable.

 

I clicked/treated one time for him pivoting halfway. Guess what he proceeded to do next? His next attempt was perfection.

 

What I realized was that he needed me to acknowledge his best effort - even if that effort did not meet my criteria.

 

Don't get me wrong - there is a time and a place to train precision. Dean is at the point now where I only mark the full pivot. But he needed credit for an attempt before he could get to that point. I don't know why this is, but I've found that with him this is necessary.

 

So, in your situation, if the dog dropped the bar and he looked back, worried, I'd give a treat right then. I'd act like it was perfect. What this would show him is that dropping a bar is nothing that he need be concerned about. I wouldn't even repeat the jump at this point. I would reward and move on. It was, after all, nothing.

 

And I'd be willing to wager that once he stops worrying about dropped bars, he will drop less bars, and once he gains confidence and stops worrying, you can build precision work back in.

 

It's worth a try. If you're thinking about quitting anyway, there's nothing lost by trying something radical!

[Mariji]

I'd agree with what root beer said actually. Sometimes you need to think out of the box and it sounds like you puppy hasn't got as much reinforcement in general when it comes to jumps because he keeps getting it wrong. I had to do this last night at training with crate games. You are only supposed to reward when the dog returns to the crate after you have released them out of it, but it was confusing my girl and i could see her release word deteriorating infront of me. So I rewarded her for releasing then waited for her to return to her crate.

 

Although if you are going to reward for jumping, i would start with the jump very low such as only a few cm's off the ground. Then you need to reinforce CONSTANTLY! This will show his that jumps are fantastic and when it gets to the point that he is looking for a jump to go over then raise it just a little bit and go crazy with the rewards! Slowly raise the bar, but because of all the reinforcement he has gotten he will already love the jump and not notice as it gets a little bit higher. If he knocks it lower it a bit act excited (but no reward) and try again, if he gets it throw all the rewards you have at him. Its called jackpotting. The dog will go hang on i just got shit loads of treats, i better do whats gets me more treats than do what gets me a few.

 

You have probably worked on it so much his confidence is way low. I did this with handling and the seesaw, so for a while i took it back to contacts (which my girl goes mental for) Her jumping also wasn't speed demon jumping and i knew she could do it so i took a break completely and took her back after a few weeks. She went ballistic and since then has flown through all the obstacles with huge drive but also with great accuracy. Sometimes they just need a confidence boost.

 

I read in Susan Garretts book Shaping for Success that she had trouble with Buzz dropping bars constantly, so they went back to do grid work and teach him how to jump but it didn't work. She enlisted some help and would reward Buzz after a length of jumps with his toy and miracles happened and he didn't drop a bar again. It was simply reinforcement he was lacking and also getting someone to stand at the end of the jump with the reward held high instead of on the ground.

 

Hope that helped, Good Luck!

[Blackdawgs]

It's easy to forget, but agility is supposed to be FUN. It doesn't sound like agility is very fun for this dog, and reading between the lines, your level of frustration is such that it isn't fun for you, either. I'd give this dog a break from agility for several months and concentrate on having fun. Try some herding, go on long walks, play shaping games, and play with a toy. Eventually transfer the fun from the toy (or whatever games you play with the dog) to the obstacles--play with the dog + toy for a while, then send into the tunnel, play some more and then send into a tunnel and over a jump. Gradually increase the number of obstacles during the PLAY (not agility session). Don't worry about mistakes for while. Emphasizing play (rather than agility) has really improved my difficult dog's interest in agility