Sheep as Training "Toys"

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

The following passage was sent to me by a friend who is a veterinarian, and the comments below were posted on a discussion forum for vets. My friend was wondering my thoughts on the subject, as like the vet whose comments are below, he is troubled by the use sheep as dog training "toys".

 

A concerned vet wrote:

 

"There are several dog training facilities here with 15-20 sheep that are worked in groups of 3 to 5 to teach dogs to move sheep on command. It is not unusual for 8-10 dog owners to visit and work several dogs each on the same 15 to 20 sheep. If these dogs were truly working dogs and were being trained to really work sheep, then I would be less judgmental. But these people are doing it as a hobby and the sheep are used as exercise for pet Border Collies. Some of these dogs are pretty aggressive and the trainers don't seem alarmed at the injuries to the sheep. Am I the only one who thinks it is unfair to use the same group of sheep over and over all day long to train dogs?"

 

Another vet replied:

 

"Is this something I should bring up at an Animal Welfare Committee meeting?"

 

 

I believe that we, as owners of working stockdogs, should always be mindful of how the public perceives our management of the livestock used in our activities. I feel that the vet making the comments above has valid concerns about the treatment of the sheep he has observed being used as training "toys", and the reply from another vet should be a warning to us that we need to be more conscientious about the welfare of the animals used for stockdog training.

 

I realize that there are people on this forum who are owners of pet Border Collies and have taken their dogs to facilities such as those described above, so perhaps this post will serve to alert them to the misuse of livestock at some training facilities.

 

Comments?

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[kelpiegirl]

Well, my knee jerk reaction is to react... I will say that I am in 100% agreement that there are numb skulls out there who do not put the welfare of the sheep as a priority, and there are some who are down right abusive- that exists in all facets of animal work. As to the dichotomy between pet border collies and working border collies- the work on the sheep should be the same, period.

 

Does the complainant have an issue with the sheep welfare, or with their use by pet border collies? Which is it? The former is a clear cut situation, in my opinion- no sheep should be abused on any level, and intelligent trainers, know the signs of stress in sheep, and have enough sheep per dog, to limit the work. Good sheep work should not be unduly stressful, or exhausting to sheep. The latter, well, that's a bigger question. There are loads of people like me, who don't have sheep, but work them with their dogs, and trial on sheep. It is a BIG luxury to own acreage in this country, and to be able to support it. In my neck of the woods, one acre can go for upwards of $100,000. I am not kidding. But, just because I don't have land, and my own sheep, doesn't mean I take it any less serious than ANY other farm owner. So, I guess what I am trying to say, is that we should keep the two issues clear, as there are two issues: 1) is the sheep's welfare being ignored? 2) should pet border collies be allowed to work sheep?

[NCStarkey]

Hi kelpiegirl,

 

I think that the vet's concern is not whether the dogs are pets, rather he objects to the use of sheep as "toys" for the purpose of entertaining and exercising pet dogs. His primary concern seems to be with the "mind-set" of their owners and their trainers, those who either don't know or don't care about the welfare of the sheep.

 

There have been numerous posts on this forum (some including videos) by Border Collie owners who take their dogs to "training facilities", and the dogs are allowed (and often encouraged) to continually harass and abuse the sheep. The owners are clueless that this is a totally inappropriate way to work livestock, and the "trainers" motivation seems to be purely monetary.

 

I think that the vet's comments should alert us to the way others perceive what we do with our dogs.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Eileen Stein]

Does the complainant have an issue with the sheep welfare, or with their use by pet border collies? Which is it?

 

As I read it, his concern is sheep welfare. As a secondary point, he says that stress/injury to the sheep might be more justifiable if they were being used to train genuine working dogs than if they are being used to afford fun and exercise to pet dogs. I agree with him on both counts.

 

I don't think he would have any issue with the dogs being pets if the sheep were not being abused.

 

His primary concern seems to be with the "mind-set" of their owners and their trainers, those who either don't know or don't care about the welfare of the sheep.

 

It seems to me the blame has to be put squarely on the trainers. The owners of these dogs very likely have no way of knowing what is acceptable treatment of sheep; they have to look to the trainers for that knowledge. If the trainers permit overuse and mistreatment of the sheep, they are failing in their responsibilities to those dog owners as well as to the sheep.

 

Good topic, Nancy -- thanks for posting.

[Sue R]

That is a good topic, Nancy, and I heartily concur with the opinions given here.

 

I've seen both - sheep that were treated as nothing more than "toys" for hobbyists and their pets, or "disposable training tools" for some serious stockdog people, and sheep that were treated with respect, as they should be, by both hobbyists and serious stockdog people. I think that, in general, serious stockdog people are also serious stockmen/women, and put the welfare of the livestock first and foremost. That may be the difference between Fluffy doing "what she was bred to do!" and Sweep being trained for what he was truly bred to do.

 

Should livestock be stressed to provide "fun" for pet dogs and hobby handlers? No, I don't think so but I don't think we can stop people from wanting to do this with their dogs. In that case, it should (and always should) be the responsibility of the stock owner to see that the stock are treated humanely and well, and never worked abusively. Let's face it - training is stressful on the training stock but, if they are treated with respect and there is a reasonable goal in mind (the training of working dogs, whose purpose is, after all, to reduce stress in the handling of livestock), some stress and an occasional injury will happen. It is up to the stock owner (and the dog handler, within their ability) to see that these are minimized.

 

JMO, and I don't think my opinions have always been very sound lately.

[kelpiegirl]

Sue??? Your opinions are not up for critiquing! That said, I have never known you to be off base. I agree with what you have said as well. I think it's the mindset people come to the field with, that seems to be the crux of the matter. As Eileen said, the trainer ought to be handling things appropriately. I have seen many videos of hobbyists having their dogs worked by well qualified trainers as well. I hope that common sense applies, and that if people see sheep running pell mell, and getting injured, as infinitum, that they realize something is wrong...

 

That is a good topic, Nancy, and I heartily concur with the opinions given here.

 

I've seen both - sheep that were treated as nothing more than "toys" for hobbyists and their pets, or "disposable training tools" for some serious stockdog people, and sheep that were treated with respect, as they should be, by both hobbyists and serious stockdog people. I think that, in general, serious stockdog people are also serious stockmen/women, and put the welfare of the livestock first and foremost. That may be the difference between Fluffy doing "what she was bred to do!" and Sweep being trained for what he was truly bred to do.

 

Should livestock be stressed to provide "fun" for pet dogs and hobby handlers? No, I don't think so but I don't think we can stop people from wanting to do this with their dogs. In that case, it should (and always should) be the responsibility of the stock owner to see that the stock are treated humanely and well, and never worked abusively. Let's face it - training is stressful on the training stock but, if they are treated with respect and there is a reasonable goal in mind (the training of working dogs, whose purpose is, after all, to reduce stress in the handling of livestock), some stress and an occasional injury will happen. It is up to the stock owner (and the dog handler, within their ability) to see that these are minimized.

 

JMO, and I don't think my opinions have always been very sound lately.

[geonni banner]

I am planning to take my rising two-year-old BC to sheep for the first time this spring. Though I have not yet contacted her, I am hoping to go to Suzy Applegate.

 

Where ever I end up taking my dog, what kinds of questions are appropriate for a rank novice to ask about the sheep my dog will be learning on? How often is appropriate for a group of sheep to be worked? Should there be several groups in rotation? What kinds of things should I be watching for that would indicate the sheep being overstressed?

 

I have seen videos of first-time dogs biting sheep. Is there pre-training I can do to avoid this? My dog has a leave-it command and a down. She is very reliable in the situations that we normally encounter, but I am concerned about her being overstimulated at the first exposure to sheep and just blowing me off.

[Brad]

I've just started training my dog on sheep as a hobby, albeit a serious one. Although I had a pretty good idea already just from reading posts here, one fo the first sessions at the farm was without the dog. We covered gate safety, general safety for handlers and sheep, and also got an explanation of working vs. harrassing of sheep. The first few lessons were in the round pen on a long line, so the charging could be controlled and the dog stopped before getting close enough to grip. Rig didn't come off line until he got his head back and was able to down when told, and could excercise some restraint. My view is that it is a priviledge to be able to do this, and the harrassing of other animals is not tolerated.

I've seen the videos posted here where crazed dogs are allowed to charge and bite sheep, scattering them in all directions. To me, this says that the owners of the facilities don't care as much as they should.

However, I think the responsibility lies with both parties; before I run out to a farm and let my dog loose, I should have done a fair amount of homework to know what to expect and what is expected.

[Sue R]

I don't know Suzy Applegate at all but I also have never heard anything negative about her as a trainer or as a person. I am sure you and your dog will be well-guided under her tutelage, and many people would like to be able to have such a trainer.

 

That said, sheep should not be used roughly, for extended periods of time, without rest or respite. Larger groups feel less stress than smaller groups. Seasoned lesson sheep may be less fazed by starting dogs/youngsters because they've "been there, done that" and can read the dogs as well as the dogs can read them.

 

Just work with your dog on basic manners - leash-walking, tethering, down, stay, respect. As often pointed out, the first time (or few times) on stock, many dogs seem to forget anything and everything you have tried to teach them with the excitement of those delectable, moving creatures in front of them. Many top trainers do very little in the way of any training/obedience-type work with their youngsters (not dogs mature as yours) prior to starting on stock. Other good trainers do quite a bit with their dogs, knowing that most of it may well vanish for those initial exposures.

 

I am very sure that Suzy will look out to protect the sheep from unnecessary gripping, and will deal with that when and if it happens. I don't think there's anything you can do other than to prepare your dog by teaching him to take a correction and realize it's not the end of the world. Too many dogs have no idea what a correction is, how to respond to it, and how to not be turned off by it - stockdogs need to be able to handle having something expected of them and how to take a correction for what it is, which is simply "no, that's wrong, try something else".

 

Very best wishes!

[Smokjbc]

I am planning to take my rising two-year-old BC to sheep for the first time this spring. Though I have not yet contacted her, I am hoping to go to Suzy Applegate.

 

Where ever I end up taking my dog, what kinds of questions are appropriate for a rank novice to ask about the sheep my dog will be learning on? How often is appropriate for a group of sheep to be worked? Should there be several groups in rotation? What kinds of things should I be watching for that would indicate the sheep being overstressed?

 

I have seen videos of first-time dogs biting sheep. Is there pre-training I can do to avoid this? My dog has a leave-it command and a down. She is very reliable in the situations that we normally encounter, but I am concerned about her being overstimulated at the first exposure to sheep and just blowing me off.

 

I have only heard very good things about Suzy Applegate, so I imagine it won't be a problem for you . But so much depends on the sheep themselves- are they fit? Used to untrained dogs? I try not to have more than two or three dogs work one group, and they should have breaks as needed. My sheep don't work every day but live in a nice big lot with a hill, so they are quite fit and recover quickly from a longer, fast work. But I've borrowed sheep that live in pens and it takes very little to exhaust them.

 

Sheep when stressed will do open mouthed breathing, will lay down and refuse to move. If your dog runs a sheep into the fence- do NOT stand there! If it continues to happen with your dog or another dog, then nothing constructive is going on for the dog and the sheep are being stressed needlessly.

 

Some gripping is to be expected- most dogs do it because they are insecure and a good trainer will know how to discourage that without crushing the dog's confidence. I've only had one major injury for a bite and it was because I was talked into letting a Rottweiler come out (never ever again!) and was not told that the dog was also involved in protection training. In protection- dogs are taught to continue gripping a sleeve while someone fake-beats them with a stick. Imagine how that worked out when the dog got a mouthful of one of my ewes. That dog was handed back to his owner and showed the door. The ewe recovered, thankfully, but it was a nasty six inch hole that the dog put in her hip.

[JohnLloydJones]

I've only had one major injury for a bite and it was because I was talked into letting a Rottweiler come out (never ever again!) and was not told that the dog was also involved in protection training.

The only serious injury I have seen was also caused by a Rottweiler. I arrived for a class and had to wait while the instructor took care of a sheep whose tail had been bitten by the dog. How common is it to use Rottweilers for herding?

[mum24dog]

How common is it to use Rottweilers for herding?

 

Not very, I imagine, but a friend uses hers and her Spanish Water Dog to move sheep out of her horses' field. If the owner of the sheep does it, it spooks her horses so it's easier all round if she and her dogs do it.

Neither dog is trained to do it though.

 

Pam

[Laurae]

I think it's fairly common for AKC rottie enthusiasts to herd sheep. I know a few people with rotties who train them on sheep and ducks at a friend's place. Some rotties do hurt the sheep every now and then, and they kill ducks every now and then, too. <<<shudder>>>

[Tea]

I just brought the bred ewes off of the three hundred acre area where I forage loose.

 

I had a tooth pulled, I have a cold I can't get rid of.

 

I use Sweep as my ewes will be lambing early and his sense of space and diplomacy is better than Gunny's or mine for that matter.

 

I sat down to read the forum and saw this.

 

It is heartbreaking.

 

I remember, might have written about it elsewhere, being invited to watch a 'trainer' work dogs on sheep. Turns out he does not do what I call regular sheep dog work.

USBCHA type. (Most of the handlers I know are VERY compassionate.)

 

I brought my niece with me.

 

We watched this guy take two big dogs, not border collies, and they proceeeded to shred a ewes hind quarters.

 

My niece gave me a look.

 

I went and talked to him in front of his students that I thought folks that love animals were compassionate and someone who relies upon livestock for their living wiould NEVER allow this in a dog. And I was surprised that no one agreed with me or spoke up.

 

We left right then.

 

This guy has been on numerous radio shows.

 

His friend e-mailed me and tried to explain what he was doing.

 

I didn't buy a word of it.

 

If I had problems with a dog, I go to someone who knows better than I, who uses common sense and compassion.

 

This guy, had niether, nor did any of his followers.

 

In my opinion a sorry state of affairs when folks don't know right from wrong.

[Belleview]

Good topic, Nancy, and one on which I have some strong opinions.

 

Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a fairly thriving business in some areas & among some sheep owners setting themselves up to "give lessons" or rent out their sheep for use by non-sheep owning hobbyists. IMO, many of these folks have no business *teaching* anybody to work a dog as they certainly don't show much skill in working their own...but that's another issue. It's not hard to recognize groups that train in some of these cliques. From my observation, they usually lack the level of control over their dog that I believe someone should have at even a novice level, owing in part, I'd guess from working broke to death school sheep, and in part to the fact that no one ever tells them that their pets are acting inappropriately and harassing the sheep because well, that would be bad for business, wouldn't it? The other hallmark of some of these groups is an attitude of entitlement, in that they simply believe that they have a right to x number of minutes of sheep time regardless of the mess they are making on the field. Perhaps they don't even recognize that that have made a mess. To hear many of them talking flippantly after their runs and shoring each another up and making light of their dogs' bad behaviors, one would think that would have to be the case.

 

Personally, I believe that generally, judges and trial managers need to become more strict about the level of work they require esp. in novice classes, but at any level where the stock is being harassed. Perhaps if the bar was higher, folks who were serious about learning how to work their dogs would rise to the occasion, or go *play* in some other venue, or just go.

 

I made a proposal last year within NEBCA to encourage trial managers to ask a few experienced open handlers to position themselves outside the exhaust gate during novice trials to chat with the novice folks as they come off the field and offer some constructive comments on the runs. It' great to encourage new handlers, but I wish we'd start encouraging the good work, and stop worrying so much about someone's' tender feelings getting bruised by telling them that it's NOT ok to to "play" with the sheep.

 

Of course, wrecks are going to happen, but I believe that as a community, we need to get more serious about policing ourselves.

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[Debbie Meier]

Hope to be doing my part, conducting a demonstration in a couple of weeks in an area that pretty much all AKC when it comes to herding:

 

Topics:

 

1) The use and training of working stock dogs utilizing low stress livestock handling techniques.

 

2) Developing a talented stock dog by both supporting and developing their natural instincts.

 

I have to present the program on ducks and I plan to not ruffle a feather. There is also a USBCHA sanctioned cattle and sheep trial that weekend real close that we will be competing at. All we can do is present the work and hope that folks walk away realizing that what they have seen in the past is unacceptable or not going to get them to where we are. But...they also have to want to get there as opposed to excusing out "my dog was not bred to work that way", hear that alot.

[mum24dog]

I think it's fairly common for AKC rottie enthusiasts to herd sheep. I know a few people with rotties who train them on sheep and ducks at a friend's place. Some rotties do hurt the sheep every now and then, and they kill ducks every now and then, too. <<<shudder>>>

 

Interesting. It's not something I've come across.

I guess you'd see damage from inappropriate BCs in the wrong hands too.

 

Pam

[kelpiegirl]

Lori

 

I think you make great points. As a novice hobbyist, have to say, that in the circles I travel (mainly nebca trials) at every trial I have been to, the judge makes a point of telling us that they will NOT allow the sheep to be chased/harrassed. I have also done asta trials, and the judge/overseer also makes a clear point about this. I can tell you that I am wholly nervous when I walk out there, not about winning, but about making sure my dog behaves. I really haven't seen any wholesale marauding out there, but then, I haven't done scads of trials either.

 

 

Good topic, Nancy, and one on which I have some strong opinions.

 

Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a fairly thriving business in some areas & among some sheep owners setting themselves up to "give lessons" or rent out their sheep for use by non-sheep owning hobbyists. IMO, many of these folks have no business *teaching* anybody to work a dog as they certainly don't show much skill in working their own...but that's another issue. It's not hard to recognize groups that train in some of these cliques. From my observation, they usually lack the level of control over their dog that I believe someone should have at even a novice level, owing in part, I'd guess from working broke to death school sheep, and in part to the fact that no one ever tells them that their pets are acting inappropriately and harassing the sheep because well, that would be bad for business, wouldn't it? The other hallmark of some of these groups is an attitude of entitlement, in that they simply believe that they have a right to x number of minutes of sheep time regardless of the mess they are making on the field. Perhaps they don't even recognize that that have made a mess. To hear many of them talking flippantly after their runs and shoring each another up and making light of their dogs' bad behaviors, one would think that would have to be the case.

 

Personally, I believe that generally, judges and trial managers need to become more strict about the level of work they require esp. in novice classes, but at any level where the stock is being harassed. Perhaps if the bar was higher, folks who were serious about learning how to work their dogs would rise to the occasion, or go *play* in some other venue, or just go.

 

I made a proposal last year within NEBCA to encourage trial managers to ask a few experienced open handlers to position themselves outside the exhaust gate during novice trials to chat with the novice folks as they come off the field and offer some constructive comments on the runs. It' great to encourage new handlers, but I wish we'd start encouraging the good work, and stop worrying so much about someone's' tender feelings getting bruised by telling them that it's NOT ok to to "play" with the sheep.

 

Of course, wrecks are going to happen, but I believe that as a community, we need to get more serious about policing ourselves.

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[Sue R]

There are so many differing opinions, and obviously some people are caring for the stock and some are not. Sometimes a grip is appropriate, sometimes it's a sign of fear or inexperience, and sometimes it's just not right at all.

 

I ran my dog at one trial and we did okay. After we were done, and I was letting the sheep out of the pen, my dog broke his down and came running around and dove at one of the sheep. Whether he gripped it or not, I could not see, but intent was there. He was wrong and doing something he shouldn't be doing, and doing it on his own. I was mad and very disappointed. Someone commented that it's okay - the scoring was over at the time and that wouldn't hurt our score. The score wasn't the point - the bad work was, but to that person, it was whether or not it affected the score that mattered. Sad, and wrong.

 

I helped at a trial once and a dog gripped. He was called off. However, the grip was determined appropriate and the dog was given another run. Okay, fine with me. But later on in the trial, a dog gripped so savagely that he took a sheep down, and was not DQ'd. The trial management had determined that grips were to be allowed and that none were to be cause for a DQ. I could not disagree more. Sad, and wrong, again.

 

A woman's dog ran the sheep around the pen at a trial, round and round. In a novice class, the judge did not call them off. When the dog finally laid down, the handler walked up and slapped him hard in the face as he lay there. Sad, and wrong.

 

I scribed once for someone who was taking off 1/2 point out of 10 for dogs that did not manage to accomplish one segment of a course (not USBCHA). She said she didn't want to "discourage" the beginners. She wasn't being honest with them or reasonably evaluating their work. Sad, and wrong.

 

We all make mistakes at times, but when we allow or turn a blind eye to bad stockmanship or inappropriate dog care or handling, it is simply wrong. Most judges seem to call off teams that are harassing the stock or not making reasonable progress, but sometimes they don't when they should.

[Smokjbc]

I have seen two decent (for AHBA/AKC standards) trained Rotties- they were drovers I believe at one point.The trainer of one of the controlled dogs I had seen at an AHBA trial was an Open border collie handler as well and experienced with both breeds- that person referred the dog that attacked my ewe. I don't fault her, the dog was younger when it was tested by her and she had more experience with Rotties- I ONLY accepted the dog to come up because when she saw the dog she felt it had some talent and was under control. Since I am one of very few in the area at all to do this, I have a hard time saying no when someone really is interested, but I did resist letting a Rottie come out.The owner was horrified and sad, he had really looked forward to doing it with his dog and had not expected the dog to do it but he did apologize and offer to pay to treat the ewe. Unlike a very well trained dog that came out with an idiot owner- that person had no idea how to handle the dog, ran one of my yearlings into a fence, we had to stitch him up and they were also told they couldn't come back. In that case the dog was not a bad dog, but the owner ignored my attempts to get them to do more than just stand there and bark orders. I got no apology or even acknowledgement that an injury happened, despite my sheep having his shoulder gashed open.

 

I can count on one hand how many times I've had to treat an injured sheep due to working dogs, in over 8 years that I've had them out there, but every time I try to learn from it and prevent it from happening again (no idiots, no big protection type breeds, always protect both the health and sanity of the sheep, etc).

[Belleview]

Lori

 

I think you make great points. As a novice hobbyist, have to say, that in the circles I travel (mainly nebca trials) at every trial I have been to, the judge makes a point of telling us that they will NOT allow the sheep to be chased/harrassed. I have also done asta trials, and the judge/overseer also makes a clear point about this. I can tell you that I am wholly nervous when I walk out there, not about winning, but about making sure my dog behaves. I really haven't seen any wholesale marauding out there, but then, I haven't done scads of trials either.

 

 

 

Perhaps without fully intending to, you have made an really important point. It's not about "wholesale marauding." But, that's exactly what many novices think the level of *abuse* has to rise to in order to recognize abuse. I would certainly hope judges and trial managers are stopping "wholesale marauding," and I don't believe that is the type of action that was described by the vet in Nancy's origin post. Sheep don't have to be gripped and bloodied to be abused. Obvious, right? Honestly, I don't think the majority of novice hobbyists understand that splitting & chasing (owing mostly to novices not having working stops on their dogs IMO) is also harassment and abuse. Winning a NN clase with a score in the 30s or 40s or placing with a 20 just because a judge didn't call a team off shouldn't be seen as victory.

 

I do a fair amount of set out in the NE and have cringed through disasterous novice classes. (And, I'm pretty sure you did attend a few of these, Julie) No, sheep weren't savaged, but they were chased & split & harrassed by out of control dogs. So, again, it comes down to a matter of perception, doesn't it?

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[kelpiegirl]

Deleted.

[juliepoudrier]

Re: the original question

I don't necessarily think it's abusive if the same 15-20 sheep are worked by 6-7 dogs as long smaller groups of the sheep are rotated and they aren't particularly stressed during each work session (or aren't stressed over and over and over again). As someone else noted, trained stockdogs don't spring from the womb that way, so the unfortunate side effect of that is that stock will need to be used to train dogs. If the trainer has stock sense, is empathetic toward the stock and takes good care of them, then I don't think it's a problem. To be honest, sheep that are fit and well used to be worked by a variety of dogs are probably less stressed by the whole situation than sheep that don't get worked much and are simply pulled into the rotation.... And accidents and injuries happen. It's the trainer's job to minimize risk to the stock, but not everything can be anticipated or avoided. But if an animal is injured, I'd hope that the trainer would use that as an oppportunity to teach about treating injuries and even analyze the situation and discuss with the student what went wrong and why and how it might have been prevented. In other words, accidents can be turned into learning situations too.

 

I didn't read the quote as so much saying pet dogs shouldn't be trained, but if the choice is between allowing pet dogs to be worked and stressing sheep too much, then I can understand erring on the side of giving the sheep a break. The distinction I'm making is between pet dogs who are being trained for hobby herding (trials) and pet dogs who are being brought out by their owners for their weekly "fun on stock" sessions. The latter isn't appropriate, and we know facilities (the one in CA springs to mind) that seem to exist for this purpose. While it may be fun for the dogs, I don't think it's a fair use of the stock. But for folks who own dogs and no stock and who want to learn to properly work stock, I don't think it's an issue.

 

I think it's encumbent upon anyone who takes people for lessons to include stock care, empathy, etc., as part of the training. In my experience, most newbies are actually more inclined to overreact to grips, etc., by their dogs than the other way around (i.e., they're more likely to try to prevent the dog from doing anything that might hurt a sheep). As Lori later pointed out, that changes only if the person doing the teaching doesn't fully explain the reason for training (low stress, efficient management of livestock) and hows and whys of the dogs' behavior and so allows dogs to harrass stock. If the trainer has no regard for their stock (and I know people like this, and it sickens me) then it's likely that their students will also learn to have no concern for the stock. (For example, on two different occasions I was asked to set sheep at trials. At one place I was offered a cattle prod to move the sheep through the sorting/set out pens, and another time I was offered a tazer(!). Both times I declined and gave my reasons why I wouldn't use such instruments. In contrast, a couple of friends of mine received some wonderful training while working the pens at a trial from a couple of long-time sheep raisers--and dog users--in how to move sheep through a sorting system *without ever touching them.* Those ladies were fotunate to have had a great training example from real stock people.) My point is that people learn how to treat livestock *by example.* If a person doesn't give a crap about their stock then their students (at least the ones who stick around for any length of time) will learn not to give a crap either.

 

We have novice folks around here who have apparently been taught to stay at the post at all costs, because you know if you just stay there till the time runs out, you might get a ribbon, as well as those all-important points toward year-end awards. I used to cringe when I saw some of the goings-on, but now I just speak to the person in question. I don't necessarily think it's made me popular among some folks, but you know, if you aren't willing to speak up, then you can't really complain about what's happening, can you? I know I've offended a few people in the short term, but at least one has come back to me later and thanked me for pointing out what I did.

 

I think clubs should also play a role. Sometimes it's a Catch-22 because they need volunteers and many open handlers don't bother to volunteer, while the novices will take an opportunity to work their dogs, even if the dog isn't up to the job. There's no reason for *anyone* (novice or experienced) to use volunteer tasks at a trial as a training venue for their dogs. I understand why people do it, but if the sheep are tough and the young dog isn't really capable of handling them, then the dog has no business doing the job. If the dog is splitting sheep, chasing, and gripping at the exhaust, would you want to be the lucky person to draw those same sheep later in a trial?

 

My point is that we *all* need to think about how we approach sheep and the work at hand. And we *all* should keep in mind the real reason we're supposed to be training these dogs (low-stress, efficient management of stock), no matter what the task at hand.

 

Anyway, I don't think Lori was pointing the finger at all novices, but at groups of handlers who all train with the same person(s) and who all seem to have the same disregard for livestock and what's appropriate out on the trial field and in training at home. As for wholesale marauding vs. just plain bad work, I think judges also need to step up to the plate and stop runs that are going badly instead of giving the handler/dog team the benefit of the doubt. If more judges would call competitors off for bad work, competitors would learn what actually constitutes bad work and perhaps would become more likely to retire when things are going badly. What people learn while they are novices also carries over into their behavior as open handlers, after all. (For example, at one trial I watched novice dog after novice dog run out badly, ring the sheep at the top repeatedly, chase sheep, and so on while their handlers just stood at the post yelling. When I spoke to one of the handlers I pointed out that by standing rooted to the post they were actually letting their dog learn to ring sheep and then chase them--things that are not conducive to ever having a good run, and that by sacrificing the score and points and actually running up the field to meet the dog and make sure it lifted the sheep properly, they and the dog would learn a heck of a lot more, which would stand them in good stead for some time to come. It's really common sense, but it seems to be sadly lacking among some....) And yes, we all want to give the dog a "fighting chance" when it gets out on the trial field, and I'm sure many of us can look back and say, I should've ended that sooner, but if you're at least *thinking* in those terms, then you're light years ahead in your stockworking.

 

J.

[Pearse]

You can sugarcoat or rationalize this any way you want people but the behavior that the veterinarian reported on in the email forwarded to Nancy is what will spell the end of stockdog training and trialling in the United States.

 

There are far too many people out there who have no business calling themselves "trainers" allowing untrained dogs with no talent for stockwork to routinely chase and abuse the 10 - 20 sheep they own. Think about it. "Eight to ten dog owners" probably represents 10 - 15 dogs "working" the same 4 or five packets of sheep, two or three times a session, three times a week, every week, supervised by someone who has maybe ProNovice level training but is holding themselves out there as a "trainer".

 

It's the blind leading the blind and the motivation is money with no regard for the stock. Fifteen dogs, three times a week at $30 a go is $1350 a week, over 5K/month which is decent money even if you are selling your 20 sheep as culls/utility ewes every month and buying 20 more.

 

On the handler side, we're talking largely about people who won't be doing stock work with their dogs and likely will not be trialling at USBCHA Open trials. These are people who think either that their dog needs to chase (sorry, "herd") livestock to be fulfilled, or who have the idiotic belief that allowing their dog to chase sheep around will cure it of its behavioral or temperamental problems stemming from their inability to put manners or socialization on the dog.

 

I know people who have sheep and will let others work them, but if they see rash work or their sheep are being run around and harassed, the person is politely asked not to come back. There are others who actually are great trainers of dogs and who will step in when necessary and prevent unnecessary harassment of the stock. That's not what we're talking about here.

 

Training young dogs is not always pretty, but with proper training, the rough stuff doesn't last long and people who know what they are doing can train young dogs without having their sheep routinely abused. That's not what we are talking about either.

 

We are talking about the clueless training the credulous, or the callous training the ignorant which will lead to people like the veterinarian in the original post alerting the local Animal Welfare authorities followed shortly thereafter by moves by local authorities who don't know stock work, and animal rights lobbyists who oppose the use of domestic animals for anything, to start moving against the use of dogs to work stock altogether.

 

The question we all need to be asking ourselves is; why are we doing this? Are we really all concerned about keeping the Border Collie as a stock dog and preserving the craft of moving stock calmly and humanely in partnership with dogs, or is that just the rationalization we use to justify entertaining ourselves at sheepdog trials? If the former, then it is incumbent upon us, as a community, to bring what ever peer pressure we can to bear on eliminating situations where stock is being ill-used. If we don't, others will and we will not like the results.

 

Pearse

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

You can sugarcoat or rationalize this any way you want people but the behavior that the veterinarian reported on in the email forwarded to Nancy is what will spell the end of stockdog training and trialling in the United States.

 

There are far too many people out there who have no business calling themselves "trainers" allowing untrained dogs with no talent for stockwork to routinely chase and abuse the 10 - 20 sheep they own. Think about it. "Eight to ten dog owners" probably represents 10 - 15 dogs "working" the same 4 or five packets of sheep, two or three times a session, three times a week, every week, supervised by someone who has maybe ProNovice level training but is holding themselves out there as a "trainer".

 

It's the blind leading the blind and the motivation is money with no regard for the stock. Fifteen dogs, three times a week at $30 a go is $1350 a week, over 5K/month which is decent money even if you are selling your 20 sheep as culls/utility ewes every month and buying 20 more.

 

On the handler side, we're talking largely about people who won't be doing stock work with their dogs and likely will not be trialling at USBCHA Open trials. These are people who think either that their dog needs to chase (sorry, "herd") livestock to be fulfilled, or who have the idiotic belief that allowing their dog to chase sheep around will cure it of its behavioral or temperamental problems stemming from their inability to put manners or socialization on the dog.

 

I know people who have sheep and will let others work them, but if they see rash work or their sheep are being run around and harassed, the person is politely asked not to come back. There are others who actually are great trainers of dogs and who will step in when necessary and prevent unnecessary harassment of the stock. That's not what we're talking about here.

 

Training young dogs is not always pretty, but with proper training, the rough stuff doesn't last long and people who know what they are doing can train young dogs without having their sheep routinely abused. That's not what we are talking about either.

 

We are talking about the clueless training the credulous, or the callous training the ignorant which will lead to people like the veterinarian in the original post alerting the local Animal Welfare authorities followed shortly thereafter by moves by local authorities who don't know stock work, and animal rights lobbyists who oppose the use of domestic animals for anything, to start moving against the use of dogs to work stock altogether.

 

The question we all need to be asking ourselves is; why are we doing this? Are we really all concerned about keeping the Border Collie as a stock dog and preserving the craft of moving stock calmly and humanely in partnership with dogs, or is that just the rationalization we use to justify entertaining ourselves at sheepdog trials? If the former, then it is incumbent upon us, as a community, to bring what ever peer pressure we can to bear on eliminating situations where stock is being ill-used. If we don't, others will and we will not like the results.

 

Pearse

 

 

As usual a very good post Pearse. I also know of a few facilities where people and their dogs are allowed to "chase" sheep for a fee and advertise themselves as trainers etc. but are seldom seen at the field while this nonsense is taking place. And, as you say, the results of this type of acitivity will be very chilling and may lead to the demise of our way of life. Moving sheep or cattle with a dog is not a game to be played by those with no knowledge of the gentle movement of livestock. It is knowledgeable work by knowledgeable people and dogs to move stock with as little stress as possible and needs to be learned and appreciated by those who choose to become stock people. It's not a game of abusing stock with the idea of giving your dog something to play with for 15 minutes. Bob