Canine Good Citizen Test and the AKC

[alligande]

Having read the thread about not selling a dog to home that participates in AKC sports I started thinking about the CGC. I am hoping to take one of the therapy dog tests soon, so I can volunteer at nursing homes etc with my people loving dog. My local animal organization who I would be doing this through also accepts CGC for this activity and this got me thinking.

 

I know a number of dogs on this board have passed their CGC but should we even be taking this test with our Border Collies ? Many on this board feel that giving any money to the AKC is wrong, would the the CGC be included in this.

 

I am pet/agility home but grew up around farms in Yorkshire and fully believe that the breed should never have been recognized by the Kennel Club and AKC etc. ( have always felt the same way about Jack Russells as well).

 

What do others think......

[desertranger]

From a personal point of view I think the CGC is hype and just another way to extract cash from your pocket. CGC testing is really nothing more than intermediate training yet a great many organizations put a great deal of stock in it. Both Jin and Abby have there CGC. Jin was trained to it and received his at age 10mo. Abby is 8 yrs and was just trained to a level acceptable to me for public work as my trail and work dog. I had the opportunity to test her so I took it. Aside from Abby's barking a lot she passed the test with flying colors. The tester allowed Abby to pass despite her barking since she showed no reactivity to a very aggressive dog that was also there for testing. That dog should not have been allowed to test but was; he failed. Abby passed.

 

CGC is a fairly good place to start, however you might want to look at the Public Access Test standard for service dogs. A lot harder to pass and requiring more training it is the level I use for dogs in the public eye. Unfortunately there are few people who teach PAT and no one who tests for it. Jin is training for PAT and can pass about 1/2 of it at the moment.

 

Here is a link to the first page of a set of training standards of an SD, Assistance dogs International.org, there are others, Psychdog.org and the IAADP for example. Bear in mind that many disabled people with programmed trained SDs do not believe in owner trained dogs. Additionally for some reason people also seem to think that because you don't have an SD you shouldn't train to that level. Frankly I can't abide uncontrolled and untrained dogs. they are too aggressive and I accept the level of training of a CGC dog.

 

One other objection people come up with is use of clicker training for working BCs. I feel that a mix of training techniques works well if not over done.

 

Giving the AKC a little money is OK for some things. Just don't forget that the AKC would rather breed for confirmation over intellegence which is way so many BC owners do not support the AKC.

[Maralynn]

One other objection people come up with is use of clicker training for working BCs. I feel that a mix of training techniques works well if not over done.

 

Huh? I've never heard that one before.

 

As far as the CGC goes, I'd do it if I had good reason to (ie, therapy dog work), but not otherwise. It's pretty much just a basic standardized test for dogs, which I think is good, and gives your average dog owner a training goal (also very good). I just wouldn't do it on principal unless I had a good reason to.

[G. Festerling]

And if your decision against AKC is made, there is always the BH. Part of the training for german style Schutzhund (Protectiondogs) which puts a huge emphasis on OB. No dog is allowed to advance past the BH without passing.

Maybe you can find a SchH club in your area that would be willing to let you join simply for the sake of getting a BH. Not as readily available as the CGC but still an option.

In Germany, many people get the BH on their dogs of all breeds. It is also the basis for their temperament testing.

 

But frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. None of my Borders are AKC nor will they be. I never liked them becoming accepted by AKC. Having said that however, AKC is not all bad. And as far as the money making...every single venue that "allows" you to get any kind of certificate will take your money.

[desertranger]

Huh? I've never heard that one before.

 

As far as the CGC goes, I'd do it if I had good reason to (ie, therapy dog work), but not otherwise. It's pretty much just a basic standardized test for dogs, which I think is good, and gives your average dog owner a training goal (also very good). I just wouldn't do it on principal unless I had a good reason to.

 

Depending on who you talk to some people have various opinions about different types of training. I've heard more than a few people speak out against clicker training for dogs that are going to work. I've also heard people say that mixing trainng styles (lure, traditional, clicker) shouldb't be mixed. I use a combo of lure and traditional methods. I've also heard that clicker (operant condition) is not for everyone. DW is against clicker training. My trainer says it depends on the person and the dog, petsmart and petco both insist on teaching it.

[Eileen Stein]

Getting a CGC on your border collie is not nearly as bad as registering your border collie with the AKC. When you register a border collie with the AKC, not only are you giving them money and enhancing their "Dogs R Us" pretensions, but you are making a statement that border collies belong in the AKC and that the AKC is entitled to claim and speak for the breed.

 

However, getting a CGC on a border collie is something I personally would not do. I do not want to enhance the prestige of the AKC in any way, or to strengthen its case that it is THE authority on dogs in the US. The CGC program is designed to do that. It's also designed to lead non-AKC people into the world of AKC competition ("The Canine Good Citizen Program lays the foundation for other AKC activities such as obedience, agility, tracking, and performance events. . . . We sincerely hope that CGC will be only a beginning for you and your dog and that after passing the CGC test, you'll continue training in obedience, agility, tracking, or performance events."), to cultivate the certificate mentality, and to insinuate the AKC into quasi-governmental stature ("State legislatures began recognizing the CGC program as a means of advocating responsible dog ownership and 34 states now have Canine Good Citizen resolutions."). I don't see the point of asking the AKC to pass judgment on my dogs in any way, shape or form, and I just don't want any aspect of my dog ownership to be under the auspices of the AKC.

 

If the organization you're working with gives therapy dog tests, taking that test seems like a better fit for what you want to do than taking the CGC. I wonder if anyone ever stops to think WHY they would want to get a CGC on their dog. Something to brag about?? Because it's there??

[Jedismom]

I am hoping to take one of the therapy dog tests soon, so I can volunteer at nursing homes etc with my people loving dog. My local animal organization who I would be doing this through also accepts CGC for this activity and this got me thinking. Many on this board feel that giving any money to the AKC is wrong, would the the CGC be included in this.

 

Hi,

 

I am also considering doing therapy dog work with one of my dogs, and they have both passed the CGC. After I did the CGC, I decided it was only good as a starting point for training as a therapy dog. I know that some volunteer organizations will accept it, but I personally don't feel it's enough for therapy work.

I'm planning on continuing Cadi's training with the Delta Society. http://www.deltasociety.org/Page.aspx?pid=282

 

As far as the money thing goes, I'm sure those who do not want to contribute money to the AKC, would feel giving money for the CGC certificate would be wrong also. You can still take the test though, and get your form that says whether you passed or failed, without sending in the money to AKC for the actual certificate.

 

Georgia

[SoloRiver]

Solo passed the CGC, and I considered getting it on my other dogs while I was renting because it is a credential that is, for better or worse, recognized by the outside world (i.e., people who are not obsessed with dogs much less Border Collies) and it was something I could present as proof that I took the time to train my dogs. If you don't have the luxury of owning your own home, such proof can make the difference between finding a place to live with as many as three dogs or not being able to find a place within an hour's commute of where you work.

 

Now that we live in a house I am not sure I would bother, but I do think the CGC program has merit and that it provides a good and reasonable training goal for many dog owners. I am proud that Solo passed the CGC test. For him, it was not easy.

[Eileen Stein]

I want to make it clear that I have no objections at all to training a dog to do the exercises that are required for the CGC. That could indeed be a good training goal for many owners. However, I can't believe there are owners who would be able to train for the exercises and yet would not be able to recognize for themselves whether their dogs can perform them or not. Do you really need an AKC-certified functionary to tell you whether your dog can sit and stay?

 

I would be really surprised if the Dogs Allowed/No Dogs Allowed policy of landlords and rental agencies were much affected by whether the dog has a CGC or not. Landlords barring dogs are mostly concerned about destructiveness, wear, fleas, smell, etc., not the things the CGC tests for. I recently had no trouble getting a one-year rental with three dogs, without any mention of CGC. I have also on occasion talked my dogs into motels with No Dogs policies by demonstrating their obedience, but have never had anyone ask me if the dogs had CGCs. I gather that Melanie was able to find satisfactory rentals allowing multiple dogs without having CGCs on them. That's good. It would be too bad if, by erroneously assuming that AKC credentials have more power than they actually do, we were lured into behaving in a way that gives them more power.

[alligande]

I posted this as a philosophical question as I was curious after the discussion regarding not selling to an AKC agility home. It stated me thinking about what our border collies involvement should be with the AKC and was wondering about the opinions of people who are involved with the breed on a deep level. I am not planning on taking the CGC but rather the therapy dog test, which when I took it with my old dog was not hard for a well behaved dog who was not stressed by new things. It is only a couple of extra things over the CGC and I think if they can pass that they should have no problem with the therapy test.

Brody will not past either test at the moment as he does not have a good loose leash walk, we have heel or a slight tension. This is simply due to a lack of time on a leash. On everything else I think we are good to go.......

[Liz P]

While in college I rented in a building that had a no dog policy. I got in by showing the landlord a dog resume, which included copies of their therapy dog certification test results. That sealed the deal. I lived there with 4 dogs for more than 6 months before anyone else in the building realized that I had a single pet. The TD results were proof that as a dog owner I went above and beyond the normal level of training and responsibility.

[Root Beer]

Remember, one can take and pass the CGC test and elect not to send the paperwork in to AKC for the actual certificate. If you choose not to do that, the AKC does not get your money.

 

The place where I train requires that dogs pass the CGC before they move into the upper level classes. Still, you don't have to send in your paperwork/money.

 

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the CGC itself for various reasons.

 

Still, I don't see any reason to object - even on a philosophical level - to Border Collie owners taking the test. For me the question would more be whether or not the money should be sent into AKC for the certificate.

[desertranger]

Several local resorts won't let pets in unless they are CGC. The same thing applies to a few of the rental agencies. My insurance company offers discounts for certain breeds on their list if the have a CGC. Whatever it's for the hype is certainly working.

[hsnrs]

Our Aussie took and passed his CGC with a obedience trainer he had never met before and did not practice for. I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

[SoloRiver]

I have rented in some very competitive rental markets. In San Francisco, it's very difficult to evict someone once you've rented to them so landlords tend to be very very picky about who they rent to, and they generally really don't want to rent to people with dogs. With three dogs, two of whom (at the time) were over 20 lbs, I needed all the ammo I could get and yes, the fact that I had trained my dogs to the point where I had "certification" for them (I brought a portfolio with "dog resumes" and certificates/paperwork/ribbons with me when I looked at rentals, including Solo's CGC certificate, Fly's sheepdog trial ribbons, etc.) made the difference between renting the apartment I lived in and not renting it. The nice CGC certificate with the AKC logo on it was, yes, very impressive to the property manager. I don't know that the fact that it was from AKC was the deciding factor, but having a certification of "good citizenship" was certainly very compelling.

 

If I had to rent again, I'd have all my dogs tested and put the certificates into a portfolio to show prospective landlords. Most landlords are not eager to rent to someone with three "big" dogs -- 90% of the "dog-friendly" rentals I called about didn't even want to talk to me after I told them my dogs were not under 20 lbs. There were many tears involved in my apartment search when I moved to San Francisco. I was really worried I would not find an apartment in the city before my postdoc was supposed to start. I guess I could have looked for a place in the East Bay or down the peninsula (not that the situation is much better there) but you know, there's only so much falling on my sword I'm willing to do and a 1 hr+ commute wasn't among the acceptable sacrifices.

 

People recognize "AKC" as a certifying organization, for better or worse, and as long as there is no real alternative to demonstrate proof of basic obedience (I am not interested in going through therapy dog training or SAR with my dogs) I cannot fault people for doing what they need to do.

[Eileen Stein]

Several local resorts won't let pets in unless they are CGC. The same thing applies to a few of the rental agencies. My insurance company offers discounts for certain breeds on their list if the have a CGC. Whatever it's for the hype is certainly working.

 

All the more reason not to do it IMO, unless (1) you have to bring your border collie to one of those resorts, (2) you have to use that rental agency, or (3) border collies are one of the breeds where a CGC will get you a discount (which I very much doubt). Personally, I would go to a different resort, use a different rental agency, and use a different insurance company.

 

BTW, what are the resorts which have that policy?

 

the fact that I had trained my dogs to the point where I had "certification" for them (I brought a portfolio with "dog resumes" and certificates/paperwork/ribbons with me when I looked at rentals, including Solo's CGC certificate, Fly's sheepdog trial ribbons, etc.) made the difference between renting the apartment I lived in and not renting it. The nice CGC certificate with the AKC logo on it was, yes, very impressive to the property manager. I don't know that the fact that it was from AKC was the deciding factor, but having a certification of "good citizenship" was certainly very compelling.

 

If I had to rent again, I'd have all my dogs tested and put the certificates into a portfolio to show prospective landlords.

 

Melanie, should you find yourself in that situation again, don't hesitate to contact me. I can make you up some really impressive looking certificates. If Fly's sheepdog ribbons were enough to get her in, I know my "Certified Trained Canine" certificates would do the trick.

[Ooky]

If I had to rent again, I'd have all my dogs tested and put the certificates into a portfolio to show prospective landlords. Most landlords are not eager to rent to someone with three "big" dogs -- 90% of the "dog-friendly" rentals I called about didn't even want to talk to me after I told them my dogs were not under 20 lbs.

 

Having rented in the east and now south bay, I definitely hear you on this one. I was able to find places that didn't need me to present a CGC or any other certificate, just concrete proof when they met the dog that he is, indeed, very well-behaved.

 

My place now is interesting because it is a new complex with carpet in the units, that still accepts large dogs. I really don't get why so many places accept only small dogs. No offense to small dog people here, because I bet your small dogs are actually trained, but many people don't seem to bother training small dogs ime. These are the dogs most likely to bark incessantly, mark and poop on everything, often never managing to be fully housetrained, and also seem to bite people more. Yet landlords often seem to have this mistaken impression that *large* dogs are going to be the problem. Oh - and also, another pet peeve - I notice a much higher percentage of small dog owners don't bother to pick up after their dog outside - I guess the feeling is the little poops are cute and sanitary, unlike those that are produced by our large dogs.

 

While VERY dog friendly (we have our own dog park, and Odin is welcome everywhere, including inside the manager's office) my complex has a list of "banned breeds", which is interesting. There are some breeds you might expect to see, such as pit bull (sad, but predictable) and rottweilers. But heading the list of banned dogs are chihuahuas! While I think blanketly banning any breed is pretty much missing the point, I was actually impressed to see that, because again, of the ones I've known, they can be insufferably barky little ankle-biters that I certainly wouldn't want to live next to, sharing a a wall. Another breed on their list which made NO sense to me - Saluki. I've never even SEEN a Saluki, and I have no idea why someone would consider all of them poor apartment dogs.

[desertranger]

My insurance co. doesn't list BCs as a problem. In fact I carry a special rider on Jin in case he's stolen. If you plan on visiting the resorts in the area note than Landmark/Wyndham do not allow dogs and the Marriotts only allows CGC the last time. You would need to check with the Indian owned resorts and hotels to see what their policies are. Taking Jin somewhere is never a problem since he's a Service Dog in Training (SDiT) and is about halfway through his public access training (PAT) including restaurants and hotels. However because Abby is a working dog and not a service dog her CGC helps when we travel and want to take her with us.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Eileen, I appreciate the offer but I prefer not to lie about that kind of stuff. When you live with a dog who's weird like Solo you tend to want to build up all the layers of protection you can get, and forging papers is probably a good way to make bad situations worse.

 

I did find an apartment that was a 10-minute walk from work and within a few blocks of Golden Gate Park. The building accepted large dogs, but I was technically over the pet limit. The property manager gave me a break because my dogs were exceptionally well trained. I was not able to introduce the dogs to the manager personally since I had flown out to SF from the east coast to find an apartment and did not have them with me -- well, that and Solo doesn't do very well in those situations. Being able to show someone Solo's CGC certificate means they feel more comfortable about taking my word for it that he's trained and under control in public situations.

 

If some other organization had a comparable certification program that gained the name recognition that AKC has I'd use it instead, but there wasn't one then and there isn't one now, and "then" is when I needed one.

[mum24dog]

As a foreigner, may I just ask how gaining the CGC is contributing to AKC profits?

 

I ask because we have KC Good Citizen Awards here in the UK too but our KC makes nothing out of them.

 

My dogs haven't done a test for several years but all I paid when they did was a small contribution towards the hire of the hall where my club was holding the tests.

 

Even if there is now an actual charge for taking the test, IME of our KC it is likely to be nominal and probably wouldn't even cover the cost of the admin.

 

Our KC accounts for the last year show an income of £0.31m from canine activities - expenditure £2.3m on the same.

 

Just wondering how the AKC gets money out of you. (Don't want ours getting any ideas.)

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

Just wondering how the AKC gets money out of you. (Don't want ours getting any ideas.)

 

Pam

 

To get the certificate - which probably costs the AKC under $2.00 at most to print and mail - you pay $8.00

 

So, they clear about $6.00 per dog.

 

I don't know how many CGC certificates they send out each year, but it's quite a lot.

[mum24dog]

To get the certificate - which probably costs the AKC under $2.00 at most to print and mail - you pay $8.00

 

So, they clear about $6.00 per dog.

 

I don't want anyone to think I'm supporting the AKC, but that's not $6 profit - they have overheads - premises, taxes, equipment, staff to cover to be able to print out that certificate.

OK, you might argue that they'd have those anyway but it still has to be paid for and any income has to be set against expenditure.

 

I can understand the resentment felt if there is a compulsory element to taking the test as far as some areas of life are concerned. We don't have that. The UK GC awards mean nothing really, they're just an encouragement to the average pet owner to train their dog with specific targets to work towards.

 

Pam

[Eileen Stein]

Hi Eileen, I appreciate the offer but I prefer not to lie about that kind of stuff. When you live with a dog who's weird like Solo you tend to want to build up all the layers of protection you can get, and forging papers is probably a good way to make bad situations worse.

 

Whoa, Melanie, I wasn't suggesting I'd give you a fake CGC certificate. THAT would be forgery, and you would be lying if you presented it as genuine. The certificate I would give you would not have a single untrue statement on it, and it would look very impressive. In fact, I bet one of these puppy mill registries has thought of this as a profit center and is doing it right now. Also, I didn't realize you were talking just about Solo. I know he's the only one you have a CGC on now, but I understood you to be saying that you would get CGCs on your other dogs if you were looking to rent in the future. I can understand your concern re Solo, not re the others.

 

If some other organization had a comparable certification program that gained the name recognition that AKC has I'd use it instead, but there wasn't one then and there isn't one now, and "then" is when I needed one.

 

Sounds like Therapy Dogs International gives a test and certification very similar to the CGC, and I would think "Certified Therapy Dog" sounds even better than "Canine Good Citizen." AFAIK, they have no requirement that you actually do therapy visits with your dog.

 

As a foreigner, may I just ask how gaining the CGC is contributing to AKC profits?

 

In addition to what they net per certificate, which I'm sure is at least $6.00 (and yes, they have very luxurious overhead, but as you acknowledge they would have that anyway), they charge $50 to anyone who wants to become a CGC Approved Evaluator, and $30 every two years thereafter for that person to remain a CGC Approved Evaluator. Since they don't give any training to the Evaluators (although they do give them a "personalized CGC Approved Evaluator certificate that is suitable for framing"), I'm sure they make a lot there too.

 

However, even if they didn't make a dime from the program, it enhances their hegemony and for that reason alone I personally would not submit to it.

[Mark Billadeau]

Below are a few examples I found where CGC (and Threapy Dog International) certs saved you money. I have not found examples where CGC got you in when dogs or your number of dogs were not allowed.

 

Mark

 

Conservancy Park Apart.

1481 Carver Street

Madison, WI

Dogs, Cats and small animals

Breed restrictions and monthly fee - call for details

Fee is reduced for Canine Good Citizen certified or Threapy Dog International certified

 

2634 South 13th Street

Milwaukee, WI

Dogs under 50 lbs

$150 deposit

Lower security deposit for Canine Good Citizen

 

3931 N. 92nd Street

Milwaukee, WI

Dogs up to 50 lbs. and cats

Additional $150 deposit

Additional monthly fees

Discount for Canine Good Citizens and Certified Therapy Dogs

 

Prospect Heights

Milwaukee, WI

1646 North Prospect Ave.

Cats, Dogs under 10 lbs.

A $100 refundable deposit and $50 non-refundable deposit are required for dogs. Discount for Canine Good Citizen or Therapy Dog International certified.

 

 

River Park Place Apts.

1014 River Park Circle West

Mukwanago, WI

Dogs, Cats, Small Animals, Birds

Dogs are $25/month, $35 for second dog

Deposit is $200 per animal over 12 months

Lower deposit for dogs who are Canine Good Citizen Certified or Therapy Dog International certified

 

Wyndridge Apartments

12701 W Wyndridge Court

New Berlin, WI

Dogs, Cats, Small Animals, Birds

Dogs are $25/month

Cats are $20/month

Lower security deposit for Canine Good Citizen Certified or Therapy Dog International Certified dogs

[Liz P]

Below are a few examples I found where CGC (and Threapy Dog International) certs saved you money. I have not found examples where CGC got you in when dogs or your number of dogs were not allowed.

 

The places I rented were listed as "NO dogs allowed." I called, explained about my dogs and they rented to me with an entire pack of BCs. A lot of places that say "no dogs allowed" in their adds will actually consider dogs under certain circumstances. TD certification can be the difference with those rentals.