putting your kennel name on a bought dog

[Lenajo]

It seems that more and more lately, that you see people putting their kennel name on dogs that they bought.

 

What's up with that? Isn't that the right of the dog's breeder? And if they don't want to use a kennel name, does that mean anyone can?

 

Seems almost arrogant, certainly a bit high handed.

 

Example - I just looked at a website with an imported pup from an international champion. The new owners promptly slapped their kennel name on it and registered it. Effectively imo, dissing all the work the breeder put into producing it as of no interest. Obviously the puppy didn't have a "name" until they bought it.

 

wth? what happened to having to produce your own dog if you want to do that?

 

edited to add - I am not talking about ACK people either.

[Journey]

Yeah, I know a few as well. Really irks me (don't know why) cause I didn't give the dog the time of day based on kennel name then to find out it's not their breeding!

[desertranger]

I have a kennel name. However it only goes on pups bred by dogs I own. If a dog like Jin comes without a kennel name then his kennel name becomes

 

Let me see, oh yeah...

 

 

Jin.

[Laurelin]

This is AKC but this happened to my first pap's sire. His kennel name is his owner's kennel (in which he was the first dog) not his breeder's. It really angered the breeder and I can definitely see why.

 

Since then his breeder redid her contract in hopes it doesn't happen again.

[agilityrunningdogs]

I agree with you Lenajo. The point of a kennel name is almost like a "brand" where you can see what lines the dog comes from. When you rename a dog to X Fluffy instead of Y Fluffly, you are misleading people as to the background of a dog, and that to me is wrong.

 

I don't have a kennel name and don't plan on getting one because I'm not going to breed (too many good dogs out there needing homes already) and if they came from a breeder, then I'm using that name because I'm proud of where they come fron. Although, my rescue dogs who don't have a kennel name, I incorporate the word 'Wish' into their names somehow, not as a kennel name, just something fun - Wish Upon A Shooting Star, Komet and Annabel's Wish, Annie.

[workindogs]

Lenajo

I agree with you...a prefix on the dogs name should be that of the breeder's otherwise it's misleading. I've also seen a case where the breeder's prefix was removed when, for whatever reason, the owner decided to disassociate any connection with the breeder.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Agreed. I believe standard practice throughout the livestock world is for the person who *bred* the animal to affix *their* kennel/farm name to that animal. I know at least with the rare breed sheep I raise, just knowing the prefix can tell you from which lines the sheep arise (in the case of karakuls there are just a few lines and it would be critical to flock health to know whether you were inbreeding or not--or perhaps a better way to put it would be to say you'd know how closely you were inbreeding), and if I were to slap my farm name on a sheep that came from Pine Lane Farm (PLF), for example, it would cause a whole lot of confusion for breeders down the line, since PLF maintains two pure original lines of karakuls and mine are a mix of three lines, including but not limited to the PLF lines.

 

Imagine taking an Ettrick dog and putting a different kennel name on it. Voila, you've set aside all pertinent pedigree information (information that might actually be useful to a potential buyer or even to someone wishing to breed down the line) with that one boneheaded move.

 

I think it's arrogant at best and at worst completely, woefully misguided to put your kennel/farm name on any animal you didn't breed. But I suspect it's becoming more of a problem now because folks are coming into dogs from a non-livestock background and are simply clueless (at least I'd like to think it's cluelessness as the alternative is much worse) about the importance of the kennel/farm name in the grand scheme of breeding programs.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I agree. When we bred and raised dairy goats, the registry rule was that whoever owned the doe *when she was bred to the buck* (in other words, the person making the breeding decision, and not simply the owner at the time of kidding), was the one whose herd name was the prefix.

 

What you are talking about is pretentious, as is getting a National Finals jacket with your name and dog's name or kennel name embroidered, as if you had actually run the dog in that Finals (which you hadn't) or had dogs of your breeding in that Finals, which you didn't.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I sold a pup to a friend who then sold it to a friend of your. She changed the name and removed my kennel name. I found out and asked her and her response was, "They do it all the time in horses (cutting or reining?)"

 

The dog is doing very well in the cattle division.

 

Now, I hear that she is taking credit for the breeding.....even though she bought the dog after it was a year old <sigh>

 

Any dog that I bought, kept it's former kennel name. It's a sign of respect to the breeder. I got to chose the name to go along with the kennel name.

 

 

Diane

[C Crocker]

I sold a pup to a friend who then sold it to a friend of your. She changed the name and removed my kennel name. I found out and asked her and her response was, "They do it all the time in horses (cutting or reining?)"

 

The dog is doing very well in the cattle division.

 

Now, I hear that she is taking credit for the breeding.....even though she bought the dog after it was a year old <sigh>

 

Any dog that I bought, kept it's former kennel name. It's a sign of respect to the breeder. I got to chose the name to go along with the kennel name.

Diane

 

 

Hi Diane,

 

Whoever said that this name change is common in reiners/cutters is blowing smoke! First off these horses have names given to them when they are registered and they are not changed at will. Second if the horse is from a (usually) big breeder then they may have a brand which of course identifies it for life as to who it's breeder is. No kennel names in this world!

 

See you at Klamath and good luck!

 

Carolyn

[Lenajo]

Hmmmm, I remember someone trying this on one of my pups; though I was quick enough to nip it in the bud.

 

Only dog I know down here from you is the rescue (?) dog with that AKC lady who breeds all the merles. What cattle dog and person are you referring too? I haven't trialed cattle in just ages and I don't know many people who do.

 

I sold a pup to a friend who then sold it to a friend of your. She changed the name and removed my kennel name. I found out and asked her and her response was, "They do it all the time in horses (cutting or reining?)"

 

The dog is doing very well in the cattle division.

 

Now, I hear that she is taking credit for the breeding.....even though she bought the dog after it was a year old <sigh>

 

Any dog that I bought, kept it's former kennel name. It's a sign of respect to the breeder. I got to chose the name to go along with the kennel name.

Diane

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Only dog I know down here from you is the rescue (?) dog with that AKC lady who breeds all the merles. What cattle dog and person are you referring too? I haven't trialed cattle in just ages and I don't know many people who <<

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. The dog that I am talking about is up here.

[Tranquilis]

View from another angle:

 

In one of the breeds I follow closely, the standard practice is to assign registered names that acknowledge both the owner's and breeder's kennel, though only if the owner has a kennel. Otherwise the registered name only shows the breeder's kennel. Once a name is assigned, it goes into a database and cannot be changed, though call names can and do change from time to time. Of course, that breed has a single breed warden, so that level of control is possible. Breeds without a single warden, or lacking wardens entirely, may not be able to enforce compliance at that level.

 

Example:

The dog I recently added to our family is Dakota. Her registered name is 'Omni's Dakota of Guardian.' 'Omni' is (was) the owning kennel, whilst she was bred at Guardian Kennels. Within the breed community, her name clearly identifies her origin and initial ownership. Omni kennels is defunct now, due to the breeder passing away, but the kennel name continues to live on, so long as any of her dogs still live.

[Pam Wolf]

The first time I saw this practice in working BC's I was appalled. The actual breeder died and someone else regaisterd the pups in their name as breeder. This sort of backfired as even though well bred, the litter was working disasters. In this case it might have been to expedite the paperwork since the original breeder had passed

[Journey]

There is a dog running this year in both open and nursery, at the Finals, that carries the kennel prefix of the first "owner" not the breeder. Very deceptive practice and quite underhanded imo. I wonder if this is being done more now since you can change the dogs name with ABCA? Too bad the owner of this dog won't change it to at least get rid of the kennel prefix attached to him.

[concrete]

This was done to the mother of one of my dogs by a well known breeder that had to know what they were doing. I called Patty and asked if you were allowed to change a bitches name after giving birth and she said no but I don't think anything was done about it. I think it's underhanded and the people who do it are well aware of what they are doing. I'm very tempted to say who this person is but think maybe discretion would be the better part of valor in this case.

 

Kevin

[Bill Fosher]

Imagine taking an Ettrick dog and putting a different kennel name on it. Voila, you've set aside all pertinent pedigree information (information that might actually be useful to a potential buyer or even to someone wishing to breed down the line) with that one boneheaded move.

 

Presumably the useful information would still be on the registration papers?

 

I'm not seeing the big deal here, other than disrespect of the breeder and/or ego gratification by the buyer.

 

I guess if I though that the brand -- both in the livestock and marketing senses of the word -- made the dog, then I might be more worked up, but I think the breeding and training makes the dog. Unless the reason for changing the name is to obscure the breeding, which it doesn't, all I see is someone trying to make others think they they deserve credit for someone else's work. As if that never happens. But a quick look at the pedigree will tell you the story.

 

Of course, if we're talking about falsifying registration information, that's another matter entirely. But in my mind the kennel name is just a part of the dog's name. I am no more impressed by an Ettrick dog than I am by a farm-bred one until I see them both working. I don't mean to pick on Jack and Kathy -- they have bred some wonderful dogs -- but the kennel name in and of itself means nothing to me.

 

That said, I would not change it.

[juliepoudrier]

BIll,

My point was that unless you happen to have access to the pedigree, you'd have no idea of the breeding of the dog you're watching work. And although it may not make a big difference when you *can* see the pedigree, I still think it's (as you noted) disrespectful and underhanded. I also think it's not ethical, just as plagiarism is unethical. That doesn't mean people don't plagiarize, but just because it happens doesn't make it right.

 

J.

[Tranquilis]

I'm not seeing the big deal here, other than disrespect of the breeder and/or ego gratification by the buyer.

 

I guess if I though that the brand -- both in the livestock and marketing senses of the word -- made the dog, then I might be more worked up, but I think the breeding and training makes the dog.

Whilst true enough, there is a big deal - When a breeder claims credit for a dog they didn't breed, they're basically appropriating all the skill in selecting good working stock that went into the dog, and claiming it as their own. In essence, they're counterfieting their skill at breeding. Not only does that deny the real breeder the credit and respect they're due, but also artificially and falsely boosts the reputation of the one changing names.

 

Reputation is gold, in the community. Falsely building reputation, or denying others their due, is little more than theft, IMO.

[Bill Fosher]

I guess my point was that I don't place any more value on a kennel name than I do on the second part. I need to see the dogs work, and then I might be interested in seeing their pedigrees. The fact that a dog came from a famous kennel is no more a guarantee than if it was named after a famous ancestor. Unlike other registries, the kennel name is just part of the dog's name in the ABCA. I could start breeding and call all my dogs Ettrick if I wanted to. Wouldn't make them well bred or anything other than biscuit eaters with a famous name. (And it would confirm the opinions of many about what an idiot I am.) A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a turd by any other name would still stink. On the papers, I would still be the breeder.

 

Perhaps this is just the reserved New England culture that I live in, but I don't know anyone who uses the kennel names of their dogs in conversation, which is the only setting in which I can see that this would matter. If anything it would more likely be something like "Where did you get that Sam dog of yours?" "He came from Jane. The bitch is home-bred and the dog came from Dave." On the papers, he might be Sheepcamp Sam, but no one calls him that, not even Jane.

 

It sounds to me like you're up in arms about people changing Sheepcamp Sam to Sparkledust Sam or Sparkledust Glen, at which point if the person who owns him wants to lie to your face and say, "I bred him at home," he or she would also have to lie about who the dam is. Before the conversation could get to its next logical step -- which is presumably a discussion about whether he would be a suitable sire to use for your bitch or whether you might want a pup that he's sired from someone else's bitch, presumably you'd take some time for due diligence and look at the pedigree and discover the lie, since the breeder would stlll be listed as the owner of Sheepcamp Kennels. Then you're left with the choice of a.) running for the hills, 2.) objectively deciding that the breeding is what you're looking for, even though the owner of the dog is a liar and a cheat or III.) posting about it on an Internet forum and calling for regulations that would prohibit this behavior.

 

(All names fictitious, I hope.)

 

In the end, as Tranquilis points out, reputation is the currency in which we trade. People might try to co-opt the work of another breeder by putting their own name on a dog, but the pedigree will still tell the story, and their reputation will be ranked accordingly. The truth will out.

 

Okay. Two Shakespeare references in one thread is my limit.

[Sue R]

When I went to register Dan, I asked his breeder if she wanted/would like it if I put a kennel name (what I thought would be her kennel name, if she had one) on the papers. She said, "I don't bother with any kind of kennel name--I figure if the dog earns a reputation, then everybody knows who it belongs to and what its breeding is!"

 

I don't have an objection to "branding" when someone produces a product (pups included) that they have put time, effort, intelligence, and so on into. They are putting their reputation on the line when they do that as well. I do think that, if you didn't produce the pup, then you shouldn't put your kennel name on it. It is your right to put it on those pups you produce.

 

And, it goes both ways - I have had a couple of dogs that I registered with their breeder's/seller's prefix. I regret that now and have seriously considered redoing their papers to take that off. Just a personal feeling, but I don't care to "promote" that name by having it as part of my dogs' registered names. It's really just a personal thing because unless someone sees their papers, that name does not need to be used anywhere and, if someone is viewing the papers, the source of the dogs is obviously there.

[Liz P]

I can see Bill's point here when I think about all the well known dogs. We call them names like Bev Lambert's Pippa or Bill, David Henry's Holly, Tommy Wilson's Roy, Amanda Milliken's Boy and Alasdair MacRae's Nap even though they didn't breed those dogs. It's the breeding AND the handler that make a dog famous, and kennel names are often forgotten or not used at all.

 

I also happen to agree that a kennel name doesn't mean anything to me until I see the dog work and I see the pedigree. I was looking for a dog from particular lines this spring and inquired about several based on their kennel name, only to find out that the dogs in question were not what I was looking for. In both cases the breeders had purchased adult dogs and bred them. The resulting pups had the kennel name of those breeders but not the long standing, carefully developed bloodlines behind them.

[Lenajo]

I find it interesting that those those don't breed, or breed very little, have the least interest in supporting what kennel names are about.

 

You need to look at it like cars...

 

Person A buys a great Porsche at a dealership.

 

Person A removes the Porshe identifiers on the exterior of the car, and instead puts up HotRod emblems that he uses for cars he builds himself.

 

Hotrod Car is sent to the track, where under Famous Driver it wins races handily.

 

In the race catalog, the car is listed as a HotRod Car/Famous Driver

 

Person B...and many others, sees HotRod Car at the races and says "I want one of those". Being sensible people...they know they cannot buy Famous Driver, but they would like a HotRod Car.

 

The search the web, ask people, look at HotRod's website, in general HotRod gets lot of advertisment and even sells a number of cars based on the name that FD/HotRodCar has gotten them....and maybe, maybe, a few of the customers check the vin number - the car "pedigree".

 

oh, they say...it's a Porsche.

 

Do you not think Porshe has a right to be angry? to expect the car, even sans their identification to still be called a Porsche car and not advertised as someone else's design and effort? Lawsuits would materialize I assure you...

 

Dogs don't go at Porsche prices (yet ) but the issue of the producer is a real one. It is disrepectful at best to take of the breeder's "brand" name and sell and advertise as if their effort and work was your own.

 

The point of a kennel name is that you don't have to search out the pedigree to know what kind of effort is behind the dog you are looking at.

 

If Jock Richardson thought like some of you we would not discuss Wiston Cap, but Richardson's Cap. Did Bobby Dalziel take the Dryden off Joe because it was "his" dog? I think not.

 

There are breeders and people in this country, that sold either one of those dogs would have scalped that name off immediately and put on their own and bred those dogs as if the work behind them was all their own. Does anyone here really condone this?

 

oh, and Bill..SheepCamp is Dodie Green. You can't use it.

[stockdogranch]

I agree. And while I choose not to use a kennel name on dogs I produce, it still would piss me off if someone who bought one of my dogs then put their kennel name on the dog. That's NOT where the dog came from,

A

[ShoresDog]

When I went to register Dan, ...

This is an ignorant question -- both my dogs are spayed, and I'll never be a breeder so it hardly matters -- but what do you mean, "register Dan"? My understanding is that only breeders can register the pups with ABCA, and they can register the whole litter at once? Juno has an ABCA reg. number, but I've never registered her by name or anything like that. Is she fully registered?