Tobey

[Izzysdad]

The first lady and I were on the couch with Tobey in between us and Katie leaned over to give some love and like always she bent to kiss his forehead, he took offense and gave a pretty solid growl. She pulled away and corrected him firmly and after a minute or so tried again. Same result only with a good bark. He has shown zero agression since getting here and I'm always the one with the cool head, Katie is the worrier but I'm pretty concerned about this. He supposedly wasn't abused in his former home and passed all temperment tests with flying colors.

 

Tim

[sweet_ceana]

Isn't Tobey new to your household? Maybe he is letting you know his boundries. Not all dogs like to snuggle. Everyone is entitled to a little space, including Tobey. I don't know that I would necissarily call that agression.

 

Leaning over a dog's head can be easily interrperated by a dog as agression on the person's behalf or an attempt to exert dominance. In a word, he probably thought Katie was being rude. A good book that explains this behavior is "The Other End of the Leash." I would highly suggest anyone with a dog read it. Growling doesn't always equal agression either. How else would you want your dog to ask you to stop something he doesn't like? The bark may have been his fraustration that you didn't understand he wanted you to stop.

 

Just a note as well on agression. A dog does not have to be abused to be agressive. Nor is every abused dog going to wind up agressive. Agression usually is due to a dog being a couple of cards short of a full deck, IMHO.

[Izzysdad]

I guess I was over reacting. It was an unusual time for it to happen is what I was thinking.

[Flamincomet]

I agree wholeheartedly with Ceana. I had a very fearful dog come into work a few weeks ago, very obvious that he was terrified. And a girl at work went RIGHT up to him, straight on, and kissed him on the forehead. The whole time the dog was backing away and curling his lip. She didn't get bit, mostly I think because she shocked the dog with her behavior, and needless to say I turned the dog away, as it wasn't fair to put the dog in such a situation. But IMO, if the dog HAD bit the girl, it would have been 100% her fault, as he showed painstakingly obvious signs that he was very fearful of the whole situation. Listen to your dog, they all have boundaries.

 

Autumn

[Izzysdad]

I agree. But about 20 minutes ago he was lying on the floor in my office and Katie was sitting about 3-4 feet away talking to me and she reached out to pet him and he did it again. Odd.

[Jedismom]

The first lady and I were on the couch with Tobey in between us and Katie leaned over to give some love and like always she bent to kiss his forehead, he took offense and gave a pretty solid growl. She pulled away and corrected him firmly and after a minute or so tried again. Same result only with a good bark. He has shown zero agression since getting here and I'm always the one with the cool head, Katie is the worrier but I'm pretty concerned about this. He supposedly wasn't abused in his former home and passed all temperment tests with flying colors.

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

Tobey doesn't know you that well yet and perhaps the trust isn't there. If it were me, he would lose his couch privileges for the time being and I would do the NILIF with him.

 

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

[poligar]

What a great article! I found really interesting the concept of stability within the pack. I had never seen it that way before!

Hope your Tobey gets used to your home!

 

Paulina

[nancy in AZ]

Were you present during the second occurance? Could he be resource guarding you? Does he ever do it to your wife when you're not present?

[desertranger]

Ceana is right. I also suggest you read the other end of the leash. As I like to kiss the dogs faces on the forehead and such I'll tell you that you should always cup them under the chin first hands working up to the ears before you put your face in close. Always best to come from underneath as if yoju're playing. Youj should also know that nose-nose greetings among dogs is usually bad news unless the dogs know each other.

[Jedismom]

Were you present during the second occurance? Could he be resource guarding you? Does he ever do it to your wife when you're not present?

 

 

Good point. Also, does he ever do it to you? You haven't mentioned that he does so I'm going to assume no. In your opening post, you used the phrase "like always she bent to kiss his forehead". So I'm going to assume Tobey used to let her kiss him. Does you wife participate in his care and training? She should be the one feeding and treating him from now on, all resources should come from her for a while. Oh and one more thing. If it were me I would quit the leaning over and petting. You don't want this to progress to a snap and it might. If she wants to pet Tobey, I would call Tobey to me, get more on his level, ask for a sit and pet him on his neck or chest area. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[mbc1963]

Tobey's only been there about 2 weeks or less, right? I'd say he's trying to work out his relationships with y'all, and figure out the house rules. He obviously has rules in his head about what's OK and what's not OK, and I think since the honeymoon period is over, he's starting to tell you.

 

As someone who owns a reactive dog, I can say that there are dozens of things that can trigger a growl from him. While he's too reactive, too tense, his reactivity triggers seem to be very normal triggers for all dogs - my guy just overreacts. Other dogs just might suffer in silence and allow annoying behavior to go on - or try to get away from it. Triggers definitely include too much "closeness" or invasion of his personal space, leaning and looming over him, and rapid approaches from strangers.

 

I wonder if Tobey maybe hasn't been loving the head kisses and such up till now, but has just sorted out some kind of dymanic in your house where he's realized your wife is less dominant, and therefore he's testing out his boundary-setting on her? I wouldn't want a dog who growls at me, but neither would I want to put the dog in a situation where he's subjected to attention he doesn't like. Maybe right now, he's gotta be desensitized to the kinds of attention y'all want to give.

 

I live alone with my dog, who seems to recognize that I'm the boss of him. But if a family member comes over and sits on my couch and tries to do a head-kiss... that's not a good thing. I wouldn't set up a situation like that, for fear that Buddy would overreact and growl. He would definitely see them as "not belonging" and treat them differently from the way he treats me.

 

When I'd had my dog for a few weeks, he did some serious testing, too - adolescent stuff, I think. Like, refusing to sit when asked. It was as if he was saying, "So, lady, whatcha gonna do now? I ain't gonna sit!" I just didn't give him what he was looking for, and these behaviors extinguished themselves within a few weeks. Mind you, Buddy was almost 2 when I got him, so I luckily missed a lot of adolescent testing. Tobey looks to be right at prime "teenage" age.

 

Early on, my dog did resource-guarded me. He wouldn't let other dogs come near me, and would try to fight them when they did. I did a lot of "leave it" training and rewarding for calm behavior when other dogs came near me, and now he's fine with it - I can give treats and attention to whichever dogs I want. (As long as they stay out of Buddy's face!)

 

I also recommend books by Patricia McConnell and Suzanne Clothier. Good stuff!

 

Good luck! I think this is something you should be able to identify and correct, since Tobey's young and new to your house.

 

Mary

[Izzysdad]

We're gonna talk to the farm where he came from today and see what they have to say. I'm going to get out of the house later on today, I think he is becoming to attached to me. Whereever I go, he's pretty much my shadow. Katie can call him from another room, and he'll go see what's up but he'll come back first chance he gets. This could all clear up in a couple weeks once he really gets settled in to the house.

 

He has tested us a couple times, his only solid command that he knows is sit and often he'll do it once but if you ask again he stands and looks at you. We don't give him the option of not sitting of course!

 

Tim

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I'm going to get out of the house later on today, I think he is becoming to attached to me. Whereever I go, he's pretty much my shadow. Katie can call him from another room, and he'll go see what's up but he'll come back first chance he gets.

 

This sentence here says it all! I definitely think Katie needs to play a more active roll in Tobey's day to day life. NILIF will help that a lot. I think if she even takes the time to hand feed him his meals for a couple of weeks, you might see some improvement.

My dog kind of thinks my boyfriend is her playmate instead of higher up on the scale than her and she snapped (making contact) at him once when he tried to take a bone from her. Something she'd never do to me. From that moment on, he took his roll in the "pack" a little bit more seriously. I had him hand feed her for a few weeks and participate more in her training...playing recall "yo-yo" games, I saw an improvement in her lack of respect for him. She still listens to me more, but she definitely respects him better than she used to.

I highly second and third reading the books that have been recommended. I think a better understanding of animal behaviour and the difference between our species will also help.

[Amelia]

Hi Tim. From the comments about his former home, I take it your dog is a rescue? If so, first let me congratulate you on your choice. I'm a big fan of rescue and adoption. I read with interest the NILIF concept and I agree with a some of it. You can ignore some actions from a dog, but some need swift and meaningful correction each time they occur and aggression in any form is definitely one of them in my kennel. You can do the "slow but steady, ignore the problem and it may go away while my dog is becoming a better citizen," but in terms of aggression, somebody is going to get hurt. Ultimately it will be the dog. It doesn't matter whether the dog is new in your home. The sooner he learns the rules, the better for everyone.

 

My gardener brought his 4 year old daughter to work one day at my house and when she toddled over to the gate into the dog yard, my 6 or 7 month old prospect growled at her. I don't care what his reason was. He didn't know her, she was toddling and sqeaking, the dog had an ingrown toenail and was having a bad day. Aggression is absolutely not tolerated under any circumstances, because I make the rules. I decide everything in my dog's lives including when to be aggressive. Like the NILIF program says, if I don't make the rules, the dogs will, and I won't like them.

 

So, I came through the gate and put the fear of God into that youngster. I scruffed him, brought him out of the dog yard (his comfort zone) put him on his back and made a believer out of him. I then held him firmly in that position, looking him directly in the eye and had the little girl toddle over, stand over him and pet him until the puppy relaxed. I've not seen any aggression from him towards anything since. It doesn't matter how he feels about the little girl, whether he's comfortable in her presence, or more attached to me. He simply must respect the fact that I make the rules regardless of what or who is going on. Problem solved, job done.

 

I don't know why we make excuses for our dogs. "Oh...my dog just fill-in-the-blank. It's no big deal." If a dog does something we don't like or can't tolerate, simply don't let him do it. Correct the action with a manner that matches his intensity, then go on like it never happened. Using the NILIF approach seems to me to be sound advice on a day to day basis, but I would add correction to solve a problem before it gets out of hand and the dog ends up losing.

[Izzysdad]

He is a rescue and came from a chaotic home life with many kids and other dogs. After a couple conversations, it seems that he is finally settling in and really trying to figure out who is who and where everyone stands. He knows he's in front of Izzy and I'm the leader, but he's not sure where Katie fits in yet. Katie is gonna take over feeding, and doing training and working on his "talking" issue. He was corrected last night when he gave the "I don't think so" sound. He's two years old and no one has put any time into him. Just this week (and we've had him a week) has he learned a solid down command. He will sit, but there is no stay. He wil come when called, and responds very well when I whistle-he comes bolting from where ever he may be if he can hear me. His couch privlages are over for now, unless we say it is ok and we have said it's ok this first week but I think he's a bit too comfortable. We'll see where it goes!

[RoseAmy]

Hi Tim. From the comments about his former home, I take it your dog is a rescue? If so, first let me congratulate you on your choice. I'm a big fan of rescue and adoption. I read with interest the NILIF concept and I agree with a some of it. You can ignore some actions from a dog, but some need swift and meaningful correction each time they occur and aggression in any form is definitely one of them in my kennel. You can do the "slow but steady, ignore the problem and it may go away while my dog is becoming a better citizen," but in terms of aggression, somebody is going to get hurt. Ultimately it will be the dog. It doesn't matter whether the dog is new in your home. The sooner he learns the rules, the better for everyone.

 

My gardener brought his 4 year old daughter to work one day at my house and when she toddled over to the gate into the dog yard, my 6 or 7 month old prospect growled at her. I don't care what his reason was. He didn't know her, she was toddling and sqeaking, the dog had an ingrown toenail and was having a bad day. Aggression is absolutely not tolerated under any circumstances, because I make the rules. I decide everything in my dog's lives including when to be aggressive. Like the NILIF program says, if I don't make the rules, the dogs will, and I won't like them.

 

So, I came through the gate and put the fear of God into that youngster. I scruffed him, brought him out of the dog yard (his comfort zone) put him on his back and made a believer out of him. I then held him firmly in that position, looking him directly in the eye and had the little girl toddle over, stand over him and pet him until the puppy relaxed. I've not seen any aggression from him towards anything since. It doesn't matter how he feels about the little girl, whether he's comfortable in her presence, or more attached to me. He simply must respect the fact that I make the rules regardless of what or who is going on. Problem solved, job done.

 

I don't know why we make excuses for our dogs. "Oh...my dog just fill-in-the-blank. It's no big deal." If a dog does something we don't like or can't tolerate, simply don't let him do it. Correct the action with a manner that matches his intensity, then go on like it never happened. Using the NILIF approach seems to me to be sound advice on a day to day basis, but I would add correction to solve a problem before it gets out of hand and the dog ends up losing.

 

 

Amelia--I've got one thing to say---Amen..

 

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I get so tired seeing all these "labels" being attached to dogs now a days. The bottom line is I'm the human your the dog and these are the rules..or else.

[mbc1963]

I think I would also correct my dog if he growled at me. I know I correct him if he growls at other folks. Big fuss, loud, deep voice, go to the corner and lie down for a bit. (Honestly, he doesn't growl at me unless I've stepped on him or something, and then I think it's pretty well justified.)

 

As a classroom teacher versed in primate psychology I think I'd also be sure to let the wife correct for wife-centered misbehaviors. One thing that doesn't work in classrooms is to send a kid elsewhere to be corrected for a normal, silly kid behavior - say, to the principal's office. That makes the kid respect the principal, and makes him think that the classroom teacher isn't the one with authority. I would imagine the same thing goes for dogs. Professionals?

 

Mary

[Flamincomet]

Amelia, I agree with you in most instances. However, if you have a reactive fearful dog, using this type of behavior can completely backfire on you, and the behavior will only escalate. I had a similar situation happen to me, although I still don't know if it was fear or just a screw loose, but I ended up being bit on the wrist after correcting him for growling at me in the manner that you described.

 

This is not advice I would give lightly to the general public, for sure.

 

Autumn

[Izzysdad]

We recieved some solid advice and what we started doing tonight was we took him to the local pond where lots of people bring their dogs to swim. Once he caught sight of the dogs he started with the barking and such I described in another thread. Katie took over and was getting him to focus on her and she was treat machine. We started a good distance away and moved closer, and as soon as he started to escalate we moved away. Katie will be hand feeding him, and his couch privalges are over for a while. We've determined that he's confused as to where she fits in in our pack. He knows I'm on top and Izzy is on the bottom, but he's still like, "hey dad, who's the chick?" So we have some work do, which is great because I'm glad we're the ones to be able to help him. Basically, no one has put any time into him in his first two years on this planet.

 

Tim

[Kenbo]

Amelia, I agree with you in most instances. However, if you have a reactive fearful dog, using this type of behavior can completely backfire on you, and the behavior will only escalate. I had a similar situation happen to me, although I still don't know if it was fear or just a screw loose, but I ended up being bit on the wrist after correcting him for growling at me in the manner that you described.

 

This is not advice I would give lightly to the general public, for sure.

 

Autumn

 

I do not agree. As it was stated, you need to take swift action, as soon as possible. If the behavior escalates, then the correction needs to escalate. Someone needs to be in charge, and it does not need to be the dog. I can't think of what I would if one of my dogs were to growl at someone or bite me. Just remember, the growl is usually before the bite. "but I ended up being bit on the wrist after correcting him for growling at me in the manner that you described" So the dog won. What did you then do? Just wondering Ken

[Shetlander]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I get so tired seeing all these "labels" being attached to dogs now a days. The bottom line is I'm the human your the dog and these are the rules..or else.

 

I'm not big into labels or excuses. I also know if a dogs is aggressive or shy, it does not in any way mean the dog must have been abused or mistreated. The problem I see with the technique Amelia describes is not everyone is able to do it successfully. And when this technique goes wrong, it can go very badly wrong. Add to that in the OP's situation, the dog has only been with them for 2 weeks. What I would do without thinking to my dogs, I personally would not try with a new dog I was only getting to know. I definitely would not recommend it to someone I do not know over the Internet for a dog where I have no idea if he is simply being a brat testing boundaries or one with a screw loose who could be dangerous. The OP and Tobey don't truly know each other yet.

 

So just speaking for myself, while I would immediately squash this sort of behavior in my established dogs, if I were the OP with a new dog who is not a puppy, I would use a NILIF type approach instead. The dog will not "win" with his bad behavior if he finds out that growling/snapping/resource guarding is the quickest way to lose what he is trying to claim. And no one gets hurt in the meantime.

[Lenajo]

So, I came through the gate and put the fear of God into that youngster. I scruffed him, brought him out of the dog yard (his comfort zone) put him on his back and made a believer out of him. I then held him firmly in that position, looking him directly in the eye and had the little girl toddle over, stand over him and pet him until the puppy relaxed.

 

Made him "believe" what? That when strange looking humans show up you go crazy , hold him down, scare the sh*t out of him, and then let what scares him touch him until he goes limp anyway?

 

I'm the last person to be sold on pure positive or excusing bad behavior. But you have to define what bad behavior is. _Fear_ is not bad behavior. This was a puppy for pete's sake. A puppy!

 

I daresay if you had a colt do this, you'd never hold it down and make it tolerate it. #1, most of us aren't strong enough, and I know I'd not want to scotch hobble a valuable colt and let him fight it out at the risk of injury to it or us. You'd probably take your time and let the colt get used to it. A little time, a little patience, and a good solid horse is made.

 

Too bad dogs aren't big enough to put the sense in us horse's do. Too bad that in our efforts to make sure the "other side" of training is known to be wrong that we jump off the opposite cliff to be just as wrong.

 

 

eta: regarding Tobey I would back up on his privledges signficantly. For the first few montsh in a new home a new dog should not be treated to rewards such as unlimited freedom, couch time, sleeping on the bed, etc. It is better to err on the side of caution than have to backtrack with hurt feelings and bad experiences on either side. It *could* be that he was afraid, it *could* be "just talking* (I have met a few happy grumblers), or it *could* be that he is aggressive when pressured. Don't set him up to fail, and you will find his chances of failing drop significantly.

[dracina]

Amelia, I agree with you in most instances. However, if you have a reactive fearful dog, using this type of behavior can completely backfire on you, and the behavior will only escalate. I had a similar situation happen to me, although I still don't know if it was fear or just a screw loose, but I ended up being bit on the wrist after correcting him for growling at me in the manner that you described.

 

This is not advice I would give lightly to the general public, for sure.

 

Autumn

I do not agree. As it was stated, you need to take swift action, as soon as possible. If the behavior escalates, then the correction needs to escalate. Someone needs to be in charge, and it does not need to be the dog. I can't think of what I would if one of my dogs were to growl at someone or bite me. Just remember, the growl is usually before the bite. "but I ended up being bit on the wrist after correcting him for growling at me in the manner that you described" So the dog won. What did you then do? Just wondering Ken

 

Hi Ken:

 

I agree with Autumn on this one. As she said, the technique Amelia describes could work in most situations. Amelia is an excellent handler, and I imagine has way more experience with this type of situation than does the general public, and she knows how to act accordingly.

 

However, strong-arming a fear aggressive or reactive dog sometimes does backfire. Not to say that the OPs dog is either of those, because that has not been determined. An in-your-face-I-am-the-boss-and-you-will-do-what-I-say approach usually (at least in my experience) causes a more aggressive reaction from a fear aggressive/reactive dog. I know this from experience, and it sounds as if Autumn does, as well.

 

Luckily, it sounds as if you have never had to deal with this type of dog. I am all about "being in charge", but I have also come to realize that it is never that simple with a reactive dog. Since the OP has only had this dog for a short time, it might be best to tread very carefully until the dog's personality can be fully evaluated by the owners. That is not to say that that no action should be taken- and I don't think that is what Autumn was implying, either- it is just that the action should be appropriate to the dog.

 

 

Karrin

 

ETA: I am not a big fan of positive training techniques (i.e., clicker training, ignoring bad behavior while rewarding good, etc.), either. I agree with Lenajo's advice that Tobey's privledges should be monitored.

[MaryP]

Too bad that in our efforts to make sure the "other side" of training is known to be wrong that we jump off the opposite cliff to be just as wrong.

 

eta: regarding Tobey I would back up on his privledges signficantly. For the first few montsh in a new home a new dog should not be treated to rewards such as unlimited freedom, couch time, sleeping on the bed, etc. It is better to err on the side of caution than have to backtrack with hurt feelings and bad experiences on either side. It *could* be that he was afraid, it *could* be "just talking* (I have met a few happy grumblers), or it *could* be that he is aggressive when pressured. Don't set him up to fail, and you will find his chances of failing drop significantly.

 

Agreed and agreed.

 

I'm not a pure positive trainer by any stretch of the imagination either. There are some behaviors that are simply not tolerated and I will in no uncertain terms convey that to a dog (mine or foster). But, making Toby earn privelages and giving him time to learn to trust you is going to get you to where you want to be with this dog a lot faster than using an approach that has a real potential to backfire on you and only make the situation worse, IMO.

[Maralynn]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I get so tired seeing all these "labels" being attached to dogs now a days. The bottom line is I'm the human your the dog and these are the rules..or else.

 

No flaming here. I'm not big on labels, either. I've seen perfectly solid "rescue" dogs and quirky dogs that were aquired as puppies and grew up n a great home.

 

I think most dogs are given waaay too much freedom in the begining stages of life with a new family. Dogs need to know the rules before they can become family members. Most dogs would benefit by being crated for the most part for the first couple weeks and kept on a consistent scheldule with NILIF. It teached them the rules, boundries and routine that dogs, especially BCs crave. Instead people tend to welcome them with open arms and try to instanly integrate them into their life and the dog gets the run of the house without knowing the rules of the house. That puts alot of pressure on a dog still trying to figure his new life out.

 

He is a rescue and came from a chaotic home life with many kids and other dogs.

 

Even more reason to establish a consistent routine with him without pressuring him to interact with you (the instance with your wife was probably major pressure to him). From a persons point of veiw all a rescue dog needs is to be loved. We feel bad for them and want to make it up for their previous life. But the dog is taken from one chaotic life and (in his view) is thrown into another if he gets all the priviledges without being taught the rules.

 

We recieved some solid advice and what we started doing tonight was we took him to the local pond where lots of people bring their dogs to swim.

 

So you took a dog who you barely know into a high stress situation. You've only had him a week! He needs to get comfortable an sure of his place with YOU before taking him out and about. I'd back off on anything remotely stressful until he is realy comfortable with you and his place in your home.

 

We've determined that he's confused as to where she fits in in our pack.

 

No, he's confused as to his place in the pack. If he were sure of his place, and your place, I doubt there'd be any growling at your wife.

 

I'm really not trying to pick on you and I think you're great owner . But I think people in general try to push some dogs way too fast and if they'd slow down a bit in the begining, and work on a solid relationship with their dog before adding in other things, the dog would benefit and training down the road would go smoother.