Whistles---An inborn instinct??

[RoseAmy]

As you all know I've got this 9 month old super charged super keen always in overdrive puppy I've started.

 

It's been a real trip this dog has so much talent that nine times out of 10 she's naturally right. Only problem has been getting some control on her.

 

Been doing all the usual stuff to get a down on her BUT today I started her and of course she got excited and blew off the down..had just got done working my other dog..don't know what made me do it but I whistled the down to her..she hit the deck..Picture me in shock..so I whistled her walk up she looks at me and I say walk up..She gets a little pushy I whistle down..she hits the deck..Picture me hitting the deck. LOL

 

So now I'm thinking this is some kind of mistake on her part..So I let her do some outruns and she gets keyed up..I whistle down and boom she's on the ground.

 

 

I've never done whistles with her before...I'm in total shock. All that rope grabbing and blocking and running and all I had to do was whistle??

[Denise Wall]

This is not all that unusual. Someone once did a PhD dissertation on the natural response by animals to certain sounds. Part of the research was on sheepdog whistles, including a natural response by many dogs to the normal down whistle. It was an eye opening piece for me to read. Yet, it all made so much sense when I read it. I've somehow lost the paper over the years but it was really good and intuitive. It led me among other things to start using the word "stop" as a verbal command instead of "lie down" once my dogs where running Open because "STOP" phonetically, is much more naturally conducive to, well, a stop than a women with a southern accent saying "lie down"

[desertranger]

Interesting. I've often wondered why it was so easy to train BCs to whistles. I've noticed that Jin recalls to a whistle easier than he does voice. What I'm looking for now is a list of what standard whistle commands there are. I'm thinking that some calls may be instinctive or genetic memory. I'm also still trying to get a sound out of a shepherds whistle. I did it once or twice.

[stockdogranch]

Denise, that's really fascinating! As a linguist, for years I've been toying with the idea of somehow researching working dogs on whistles vs. verbal commands. My hypothesis has been that they respond "quicker" to a whistle, and that I also "think" faster in whistle than in verbals. I could just never figure out how to separate out the variables. And since I am just adjunct faculty, I don't *need* to research any more, so I put my time to better use by just working the dogs . But I have noticed over the years that if a dog is kind of "sloppy" with its lie down verbally, when the whistle is introduced, it's almost like getting a second chance to teach a clean, crisp lie down,

A

[Denise Wall]

Thanks, guys. If people are interested I'll see if I can track this paper down again. I've tried before unsuccessfully, but only half heartedly.

 

Anna, I too feel I can be faster, more emotive and communicative many times with whistles. Often, I'll be working a trained dog with verbal commands and switch to whistles because it gives me more flexibility to express what I want at that moment. It's as if the verbal commands are hindering me. On the other hand, I'll drop the whistle and use verbal commands, corrections or a dog's name in a heartbeat if that's what feels right to do at the time. I'm not sure if it IS right, it just feels right.

 

When I did the "Gaining the Winning Edge with Whistles" CD with Kent Kuykendall years ago, with all the time I spent editing, I heard it over and over so many times that each word and whistle is burned into my memory even now. It all made so much sense how to express ones self to the dog with whistles. I can't say I always manage it all that well in practice, but the overall concept is very clear in my mind of how I need it to sound for each dog and action in a certain situation.

[Sue R]

Thank you for posting the question, and thanks to those posting responses. This is very fascinating.

 

While I have only very half-heartedly attempted to start whistles, I have noticed that for my everyday "here" mouth whistle, that Celt and Bute invariably respond to the whistle much better than to the verbal. I've often wondered why. Now, if I would only really work on getting the whistles consistent and second-nature so I could actually use them for work...

[RoseAmy]

Denise I for one would love if you could find those papers.

 

I titled this topic half in jest. But that fact is I was blown away by her response. I have never practiced whistles with her/had never used a whistle on her. But that down whistle stopped her in her tracks. Now the walk up whistle I had to the first time or so also tell her verberally.

 

By using the down whistle it was like fast forwarding 5 months of training of this pup.

[PennyT]

This tinkles faintly in my mind, too. Was it Coppingers?

[grenzehund]

This one might be what you're thinking of:

 

McConnell, Patricia B. 1990. "The Effect of Acoustic Features on Receiver Response in Mammalian Communication." Dissertation: Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin-Madison.

 

I think she's written some other works on dogs since then.

 

Susan

[bcnewe2]

My dogs prefer whistles to commands. It's hard to put to much emotion in a whistle. Mick says they beat a yelling handler any time!

Dew who is not on whistles yet will take her brother's whistles, unfortunatly not the down but the walk up is good and if she's feeling balanced right she'll get the flank whistles too.

 

Even my new pups come to my recall whistle. But when they see a bunch of other dogs running they are really just running with them. That's how Dew learned her recall, we had to proof it but she got it with the help of the other dogs.

[DTrain]

I have experienced the same thing with my dogs. I am working my youngest on whistles now and he is coming along great, I am glad you have a down, that one can be difficult sometimes. I am curious about this too. And, I am curious about sound waves. I have a very much lower than average voice and I cannot generate a lot of volumn. When my dogs are close I will use voice commands but I get a more rapid and enthusiastic response on whistle commands at a distance. I would like to read more about this if you can find the paper.

[bcnewe2]

Yes me too. I did a google search and came up with nothing.

If anyone can find a link to the article, please put it on here!

[Amelia]

Hello all. While we're on the subject, here's some whistle info I've learned the hard way. My dog's reaction to a whistle will mimic it. If I want a quick down, I blow a short whistle. A short flank? Half of a flank whistle. Fast flank or speed up during a flank? A short, fast whistle repeated. To widen a flank, I strengthen my whistle and to widen or redirect an outrun, I blow a stronger, longer flank.

 

Here's some common mistakes I see a lot. Handler blows an overlong stop or there whistle then gets mad when the dog takes 5 steps before laying down or hitching up, or says, "my dog won't stop/slow down." Handler blows really loud whistles all the time. I blow really soft whistles as much as possible, so that when I strengthen them, they mean something. Also, a dog will push back against over loud whistles and sometimes you get the exact opposite effect from what you want by being too loud. If the whistles are grating, a dog may become reluctant. Blowing whistles at hand. If I'm sitting behind the post somewhere and the whistles hurt my ears, can you imagine how the dog and sheep feel? Hands blow a flank whistle repeatedly out of panic, when only one is necessary, causing the dog to panic. Then hand gets mad and blames dog because it overflanks or won't/can't then take a stop or steady causing the line to zig zag and a missed panel. Hand slurs a whistle instead of keeping each note distinct then gets mad at the dog for being confused.

 

With whistles, what works for me is to keep them short, crisp and soft, soft, soft whenever possible. Don't use them at hand (I also know some really successful hands who do) keep each note clear, and make absolutely sure before you put them on a dog that each one is distinctly different from the others.

 

Cheers all,

[Pippin's person]

This one might be what you're thinking of:

 

McConnell, Patricia B. 1990. "The Effect of Acoustic Features on Receiver Response in Mammalian Communication." Dissertation: Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin-Madison.

 

I think she's written some other works on dogs since then.

 

Susan

 

This dissertation is one of the only ones I've found. It's the only one I know of that actually looks at animals' natural responses to sounds and to the particular formant frequencies and rhythm of sounds.

 

ETA: she gives a general description of her work on pp. 56-64 in The Other End of the Leash and provides relevant spectograms in the "pictures" section of the book--though she doesn't talk there about sheepdog whistles much.

[Laurae]

McConnell, Patricia B. 1990. "The Effect of Acoustic Features on Receiver Response in Mammalian Communication." Dissertation: Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin-Madison.

 

I think she's written some other works on dogs since then.

 

[Denise Wall]

This one might be what you're thinking of:

 

McConnell, Patricia B. 1990. "The Effect of Acoustic Features on Receiver Response in Mammalian Communication." Dissertation: Madison, Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin-Madison.

 

I think she's written some other works on dogs since then.

 

Susan

 

Yes, that would probably have to be it. And yes, how embarrassing that I didn't remember who did it. In my defense, I probably copied this entire dissertation from a book at the vet school research library at NC state many years ago. She was not well known back then so the name didn't stick with me.

 

I'll see if I can track it down again. But for those thinking it's a short paper, dissertations are long.

[desertranger]

I found it, an earlier topic on whistling and how to use the shepherds whistle.

[RoseAmy]

I for one would love to read it, even if it is a long read.

 

I've been doing a lot of whistle thinking since starting this thread. Someone said they "thought" faster using whistles and I realize that's true. Perhaps puppy is more willing to down cause I'm now quicker in stopping her in the right place?

 

 

So my next question is it really the whistle that has made the change or has the whistles just allowed me to be quick enough to keep her right?

[desertranger]

I think the answer to your question is both. It's never just one or the other.

 

After reading the einter thread again I placed that stoopid whistle in my mouth and lo and behold I got it to work. I can now make sounds with it at will. Now to get them organized.

 

I also found this, a list of typical whistle commands.. It includes what it should sound like.

[OurBoys]

I also found this, a list of typical whistle commands.. It includes what it should sound like.

That's the same one I had found. It states a long whistle for a lay down but the one short sound makes more sense to me. (Sooooo, in my mind, one short for lay down and 2 short for walk up.)

[juliepoudrier]

Brenda,

Many people use a shortened version (or, more technically, the first part) of their lie down whistle as a "there" or "steady" whistle, so your lie down whistle needs to be long enough that you can use a shortened version to ask the dog to correct its pace. And of course your walk up tone needs to be sufficiently different from the lie down as to not confuse the dog....

 

J.

[Laurae]

Interesting discussion. Scott Glen put whistles on my dog, and I've been having a little trouble getting him to take them when I give them. Scott uses his fingers, and I use a stainless Montana lite, so that may be part of the reason I can't get them to sound exactly like his. Scott's come bye is a little different from mine, and I've been trying unsuccessfully to repeat his version with Taz. Yesterday, we worked some wild sheep and I had less time to think about what I was blowing, so I blew my own come bye whistle, which no one has ever used with Taz. Lo and behold, he took it. (With practice, he's starting to take all of them more often, but I had never used my come bye whistle on him before and he took it right away.) He wouldn't much take my attempts at mimicking Scott's come bye, but he took my come bye whistle. I thought that was pretty odd but maybe is due to the whistle simply making sense to him in the situation that called for it, whereas he is otherwise having to work out my "translations" of the whistles he first learned with Scott and isn't quite sure they are the same thing as what he learned.

[grenzehund]

I for one would love to read it, even if it is a long read.

If you have access to an academic library you could probably get it. Otherwise you could try contacting the author. She has a website and a blog. Here's the abstract:

 

"The effect of acoustic features on receiver response in mammalian communication

by McConnell, Patricia B., Ph.D., The University of Wisconsin - Madison, 1988, 159 pages; AAT 8903301

Abstract (Summary)

 

The central question posed by this research is whether some physical properties of sound have consistent, species-independent effects on the response of the receiver in mammalian communication. The hypothesis tested here states that short, rapidly repeated rising notes inherently increase motor activity levels in mammalian receivers, and that long continuous descending notes inhibit activity.

 

The results of three studies support the hypothesis that variations in the number and duration of notes influence motor activity in a mammalian receiver. 104 animal handlers and trainers, speaking 16 native languages to domestic horses and dogs, consistently used short, rapidly repeated, and often broadband notes to elicit increases in motor activity, and long continuous notes to inhibit activity. The results of a training study on young domestic canids (Canis familiaris) showed that four short rising tones were more effective at eliciting approach than one long descending tone. An analysis of the electrophysiological responses of the same dogs showed that the number of notes and note duration had a striking effect on Auditory Evoked Responses (AERs) both before and after training.

 

The prediction that a change in the direction of frequency modulation affected motor activity responses was not supported. The direction of frequency modulation was not changed consistently by professional animal handlers to change motor activity levels. However, signals produced to increase activity showed a higher degree of frequency modulation, regardless of direction. Although this acoustic feature had a strong effect on the AERs of the pups before training, the responses after training showed pups continued to attend to the number and duration of notes, but not to the degree and direction of frequency modulation.

 

These studies suggest that in addition to providing information about the signal sender, acoustic signals can be used to influence the response of receivers to the sender's advantage. The consistent use of these graded changes in the acoustic communication systems of humans, other mammals and some birds is discussed, and a neural model of the differential effect of graded changes in acoustic stimuli is presented."

[juliepoudrier]

I thought that was pretty odd but maybe is due to the whistle simply making sense to him in the situation that called for it, whereas he is otherwise having to work out my "translations" of the whistles he first learned with Scott and isn't quite sure they are the same thing as what he learned.

Laura,

If I were you, I'd go ahead and switch him to your come bye whistle. It wouldn't take a lot of effort (you could just go back to balance work or use situations like the one you describe to reinforce *your* come bye whistle), and it would probably be less frustrating for both of you, because you'd be more consistent with the whistle command you can blow better.

 

J.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Laura,

If I were you, I'd go ahead and switch him to your come bye whistle. It wouldn't take a lot of effort (you could just go back to balance work or use situations like the one you describe to reinforce *your* come bye whistle), and it would probably be less frustrating for both of you, because you'd be more consistent with the whistle command you can blow better.

 

J.

I agree Julie. I would just try and get the whistles that you are comfortable with on the dog and go from there. It isn't that hard to turn a dog over to new whistles especially if you intend to stay with a copy of the whistles already on the dog. You will not be able to exactly copy Scott's whistles anyway as he is a very accomplished finger whistler and you can't copy that with a steel whistle but you can come close. The dog will turn over in a maximum of a couple of weeks if you are consistant and persevering and it won't bother him/her at all. Bob