Barbie and Ken

[JohnLloydJones]

What is a BC supposed to look like? Everyone already has an idea of what an ideal border collie should be. According to AKC: ...

 

I'm not sure that the AKC is a good reference. No, wait, I am absolutely certain that they aren't. This is a better reference.

[SS Cressa]

I'm not sure that the AKC is a good reference. No, wait, I am absolutely certain that they aren't. This is a better reference.

I am positive the akc is NOT a good reference but the tread is talking about show border collies... err was when I posted

 

And what border collie are suppose to look like according to show breeders.

[IronHorse]

MagRam;

You paid $5,000 for a Border Collie that does not work at all ?? !! Why ?

LOL no I did not shell out of my pocket $5,000 for her, its my dry sense of humor making that statement.

It is approximately what I figured I have invested in her by the time she became my property due to an event that my actions inadvertently at first assisted a puppymill but at the end shut the operation down.

I took legal possession of 5 of the dogs as compensation for my lose's, 2 of which I kept and the other 3 I secured good homes for.

The rest of the 30 to 40 dogs from the mill went into various other peoples hands that I no longer have knowledge of.

[Debbie Meier]

MagRam;

 

LOL no I did not shell out of my pocket $5,000 for her, its my dry sense of humor making that statement.

It is approximately what I figured I have invested in her by the time she became my property due to an event that my actions inadvertently at first assisted a puppymill but at the end shut the operation down.

I took legal possession of 5 of the dogs as compensation for my lose's, 2 of which I kept and the other 3 I secured good homes for.

The rest of the 30 to 40 dogs from the mill went into various other peoples hands that I no longer have knowledge of.

 

Gotcha pegged....

[juliepoudrier]

I realize the term Barbie Collie was coined to refer to conformation-bred dogs but here once again I believe that the definition has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group.

I disagree. I think the people on this forum are extremely consistent in their use of the term Barbie collie. The fact that you choose to use the term to describe your non-Barbie collie who was bred for color as a Barbie collie doesn't automatically indicate that the definition has spilled over to the world in general. It's spilled over for you, perhaps, but for as long as I've been on this forum and since the Barbie collie term was coined, this group has consistently used it to mean conformation-bred dogs. And all you're doing by using it for something else is confusing the issue for the masses.

 

J.

[Caerus]

It doesn't matter what conformation Border Collies LOOK like. By making choices that favor recessive roughs over smooths, heads a certain way, angulation, etc - that have nothing to do with actual working ability, and then not training the result to a high working level before breeding, they don't know what they are culling out of the breed.

 

This is true across the board. If you select for fast response times for a sport dog, you don't know what that's doing to the formerly balanced working package, either.

 

You can't take a breed that was previously maintained in mental and physical soundness by work, drop the work suddenly, and still have the same mentally and physically sound breed.

 

Somebody on this board made a wonderful comparison a while back, comparing BCs to racehorses. It may have been you, I just remember that I love the comparison. It helped me "get" it.

I believe they said thereabouts: If you arbitrarily decided that only chestnut Thoroughbreds are real Thoroughbreds, you exclude all the bays, blacks, greys, etc. You are less likely to find the next great racehorse of this age if you completely exclude all others, just based on color. If you instead, breed for ability you are much more likely to find the next great racehorse. Over time if you only breed for color, you will lose ability that you would have had otherwise.

I'm sure I didn't put it as well as I originally read it, but that really hit home for me when it comes to barbies vs. working dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

Ironhorse,

You keep referring to dogs as livestock, which is something of a miller's term (in that the use of the term somehow legitimizes their treatment of their stock--it's just like other livestock confinement operations). I have a hard time understanding that POV coming from you since you were directly involved with a miller and saw the type of damage that comes from such practices. It's a semantics thing, but honestly, referring as dogs who belong to breeders as livestock makes it seem as if you are an apologist for millers. I'm pretty certain, given your history, that this isn't the case, but I have to ask, why do you refer to them as livestock?

 

J.

[IronHorse]

Hey, here's something I don't get, why do people think that Ironhorse has no working dog background, based on past posts my feeling was that there was a lot more working knowledge there then there is with many other posters on the boards.

 

 

The $5000 comment, I kinda took that as that's how much has been invested not how much the dog cost. Sorta like the horse that always gets hurt, it's your $10,000 horse, don't work worth a shit but the most expensive one you have.

 

But maybe I'm totally off base.

 

Deb

 

Your right on base Deb

My personal experience with Working Dogs started hmm 43 plus years ago as a 13 year old teenager spending his summers on a 1200 head cattle/800 head sheep ranch in the Bitterroot Valley Montana.They were Border Collies but back then my Aunt and Uncle just called them the "Dogs".I actually learned some pretty colorful language from my uncle when he was pissed with the "Dogs".

Me Mum was so thrilled with my newly acquired vocabulary that she about shot my uncle.

[Debbie Meier]

I realize the term Barbie Collie was coined to refer to conformation-bred dogs but here once again I believe that the definition has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group.

 

 

It's not only the color and the papers, for some people it's the look. When Bandit was here more then one person referred to him as a Barbie Collie, he was what they call "Classically Marked" b/w, was capable of having a poofy coat (until I trimmed it down) and his head and nose with the big stop from the bridge into his forehead. He was strictly ABCA registered, though many dogs from his lines produced conf. and agility dogs. He could do neither, buildwise he was a nightmare, front legs came out of his chest using the same hole, too straight in the hip, post legged and very short backed. But, he could handle sheep, lots of eye and nerve, but no bite.

 

The Barbie Collies do look different then many of the working Border Collies, when we were at a trial in Nebraska there was one competing, both sheep and cattle, that dogs owner had no qualms about calling it a Barbie Collie. The look is consitent enough to classify them as their own breed or atleast style. I've seen some agility dogs that would fit into the Barbie Collie class based on how other dogs that have been declared as Barbie Collies looked.

 

(ETA: The term Barbie Collie to some has evolved to any dog that looks like the conf. dogs, it's a cancer, that's why they have a physical standard so that the dog breeds can be identified at a glance as opposed to watching them perform)

 

Deb

[IronHorse]

Ironhorse,

You keep referring to dogs as livestock, which is something of a miller's term (in that the use of the term somehow legitimizes their treatment of their stock--it's just like other livestock confinement operations). I have a hard time understanding that POV coming from you since you were directly involved with a miller and saw the type of damage that comes from such practices. It's a semantics thing, but honestly, referring as dogs who belong to breeders as livestock makes it seem as if you are an apologist for millers. I'm pretty certain, given your history, that this isn't the case, but I have to ask, why do you refer to them as livestock?

 

J.

 

Because by definition a domesticated dog is simpy that ( a head of stock) and its how my brain works I guess.

You bet I've seen the type of damage that comes from a deceptive breeder who was operating illegally and inhumany.

Do I think that people have the right to breed and sell dogs as a means of revenue?

Absolutely as long as it is done responsibly.

[desertranger]

That seems to be one of the problems. Perhaps one of the most beautiful set of markings in any dog breed is the the classically marked BC, a black and white face, full white collar and ruff and the tulip ears that are by no means natural. Don't forget the white tipped tail. Such a pretty dog. Don't we want more that look just like that? Even Jin's half white face and floppy ears is just not acceptable to some people. I don't know why. I raise these guys for there intelligence. I love the pretty dog and the classic markings but it wouldn't make any difference if he were a short haired rainbow merle.

[juliepoudrier]

Do I think that people have the right to breed and sell dogs as a means of revenue?

Absolutely as long as it is done responsibly.

And there's the problem--in too many cases, it's not done responsibly. I guess I was raised to believe that raising animals for any reason was a privelege that came with certain responsibilities, including putting the welfare of the animal above all else. I don't see dogs (or cats) as livestock, and as I said, I think labeling them as such makes it easier for people to treat them the same way animals that are factory farmed or raised in confinement operations are treated. I am opposed to factory farming, and I am opposed to the puppy industry equivalent known as the mill. I am opposed to high-volume breeders of any sort--I don't care if they have the cleanest, best-run facilities on the planet. That of course, is based in my own moral sensibilities, and I recognize that I can't necessarily impose my moral sensibilities on others, but I can certainly speak out about it and try to persuade others to my point of view.

 

DesertRanger,

Give me a prick-eared dog any day. I do like split faces, though! That said, I wouldn't deliberately breed for either characteristic, but if a great working-bred pup with prick ears and a split face, happened to come my way, I wouldn't kick it to the curb. Sure we all have our looks preferences, and that's no big deal--at least not till we starting breeding for those looks preferences....

 

J.

[Anda]

Hey. Best looking Border Collie ever - split face and floppy ears! OK... maybe I am biased... just a tad.... hmmm... Ohh, and make him big. Not a tiny whimpy 25 lb dog

 

 

:D

[powerfulgazelle]

Hey. Best looking Border Collie ever - split face and floppy ears! OK... maybe I am biased... just a tad.... hmmm...

:D

 

No, no---not biased at all!! Split faced, flop eared border collies are the best! So says Kip.

[JohnLloydJones]

Perhaps one of the most beautiful set of markings in any dog breed is the the classically marked BC, a black and white face, full white collar and ruff and the tulip ears that are by no means natural.

t want

I grew up with a dog that was classic black and white, though to be honest, when I think of sheepdogs my mental image is a tri. I love Senneca's markings, but when I chose her, her colour and markings were the last thing in my mind. Actually, my wife never wanted a black dog and took time to accept Senneca because of her colour, but has now accepted her fully.

[1sheepdoggal]

Give me a prick-eared dog any day. I do like split faces, though! That said, I wouldn't deliberately breed for either characteristic, but if a great working-bred pup with prick ears and a split face, happened to come my way, I wouldn't kick it to the curb. Sure we all have our looks preferences, and that's no big deal--at least not till we starting breeding for those looks preferences....

 

J.

 

You mean like this Julie! LOL

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah. She'd be *perfect* if she were also a smooth coat! lol!

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Well, see what we can do about that! lol

[IronHorse]

And there's the problem--in too many cases, it's not done responsibly. I guess I was raised to believe that raising animals for any reason was a privelege that came with certain responsibilities, including putting the welfare of the animal above all else. I don't see dogs (or cats) as livestock, and as I said, I think labeling them as such makes it easier for people to treat them the same way animals that are factory farmed or raised in confinement operations are treated. I am opposed to factory farming, and I am opposed to the puppy industry equivalent known as the mill. I am opposed to high-volume breeders of any sort--I don't care if they have the cleanest, best-run facilities on the planet. That of course, is based in my own moral sensibilities, and I recognize that I can't necessarily impose my moral sensibilities on others, but I can certainly speak out about it and try to persuade others to my point of view.

...

J.

 

I have no issue with that, we agree (or at least I feel we do) on a great many things and we disagree on a few.

It would be a very dull and gray world if we all agreed with each other on everything.

Speaking our points of view is a right that I shall always defend.

After all aren't they what gives this site such a wealth of archived information for people to draw from?

I was raised with the same believe pertaining to raising livestock and much the same as it applies to wildlife.

Reverence for all living things and the responsibility to maintain that reverence.

[desertranger]

@1sheepdoggal You have one beautiful dog. Love that face.

 

 

No further comment on what a BC should look like.

[Eileen Stein]

The term "Barbie Collie" was coined by Colin Campbell (ccnnc on these Boards), and was first published in a post to a border collie internet list in early 1995. It designated Kennel Club Border Collies bred for conformation, and specifically what border collies who were taken into the AKC and bred to conform to the AKC breed standard would become. It has since gone round the world and taken firm hold because it was such an inspired coinage and expresses so much. Just as the point of a Barbie doll is how she looks, so too the point of a conformation-bred Border Collie is how it looks. Just as all Barbie dolls look alike, so too the conformation standard and the way it is applied in the breed ring result in all Barbie Collies looking alike. It also expresses the truth that breeding for conformation is producing a different breed that ought to be called by a different name. It even carries a subliminal allusion to Australia ("throw another shrimp on the barbie"), where the conformation Border Collie originated. And finally, the allusion to Barbie dolls in the name conveys how frivolous and shallow most border collie people think this attempt to redefine and reshape our breed is.

 

The term makes a distinction that cries out to be made. It has even been accepted and used by a lot of conformation folks (though some of them deplore it, others have adopted it), and has been used by conformation folks on our Boards. But Iron Horse's statement that the Barbie Collie definition "has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group" is simply not true. I challenge him to show me one reference anywhere, other than his own post here, where a merle BC from working bloodlines and not bred for conformation has been referred to as a Barbie Collie. I have also never heard a working dog person refer to a working-bred dog as a Barbie Collie, except perhaps in a joking way to take note of how it happened to look like the show dogs (or perhaps was as useless as a show dog) -- much as some of my friends used to refer to my old Spot dog, who happened to be big and fluffy with regular markings, as "CH Shady Side's Spotlight On Ewe" to get my goat.

 

It just makes no sense to use it in any way other than to refer to Kennel Club Border Collies bred for conformation.

[Eileen Stein]

I never said I did not use my dogs on stock.

 

Well, do you? And if so, in what way (e.g., what kind of stock, who owns it, how often, to do what)? To what level are they trained, and who trained them?

 

I think you are confusing my position of defending an individual's right to pursue breeding livestock [i.e., dogs] as a money making endeavor as a position of support.

 

If you mean legal right, you don't need to defend that right because no one has denied that they have such a right. If you mean something else, what do you mean?

[bsms99]

...I believe they said thereabouts: If you arbitrarily decided that only chestnut Thoroughbreds are real Thoroughbreds, you exclude all the bays, blacks, greys, etc. You are less likely to find the next great racehorse of this age if you completely exclude all others, just based on color...

Suppose you aren't trying to breed for the greatest racehorse, only good working stock? I had a blue merle Border Collie bred in England by a guy who bred his pups for work on the local farms. He also liked merles, so he bred Border Collie merles. The vet who recommended him said his pups had a reputation as excellent work dogs, but he would sell to a pet owner if he thought the pet owner would be good to the dog.

 

He wasn't trying to breed for trials. He bred fairly inexpensive pups with good working ability for farmers who lived nearby and knew him. Breeding for merle as well didn't seem to hurt, since his pups were usually spoken for before birth. He also charged more for papers, which is frowned upon - but it fit his goals just fine. Most of those who bought pups from him didn't bother with papers. That wasn't what they wanted dogs for...

 

Leila, the pup we got, was an excellent pet. The one time she had a chance to work sheep (fresh from the range, not used to dogs), she did well enough that the rancher asked for a pup from any litter she might have. She also had one exposure to cattle, with the same result.

 

My point is not to defend breeding for color, but to point out that you can breed good working dogs AND get color as well IF you are shooting for average-above average working dogs.

[PennyT]

"Because by definition a domesticated dog is simpy that ( a head of stock)."

 

I'm not at all sure that dogs are considered livestock in terms of rights, privileges, etc. I have a hazy recollection that canines are not considered livestock in either most state statutes or general common law on the subject. Does anyone familiar with ag law know?

 

Penny

[Eileen Stein]

Penny, here ya go: http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/livestock/

 

And a couple of examples from particular states: Alabama and Georgia (scroll down to Section 4: 'Livestock' means all animals of the equine, bovine, or swine class, including goats, sheep, mules, horses, hogs, cattle, and other grazing animals, and all ratites, including, but not limited to, ostriches, emus, and rheas.)