Dogs take out the elders

[HighDesertSpice]

I was told that dogs naturally take out the elders / sick / disabled in their pack. Is it true?

[kelpiegirl]

I do think that they do sense weakness- and I have seen it in my own pack, where a couple of the youngsters throw their weight around. Not sure they take them out, but definitely regard them differently.

 

I was told that dogs naturally take out the elders / sick / disabled in their pack. Is it true?

[Liz P]

??? I don't know if it's the way I raise them, the breed or just my individual dogs, but they respect their elders, even if they are sick and not able to defend their position in the pack.

[OurBoys]

I've heard wolves in the wild will take down or run off the elderly/sick/injured. Don't know about domestic dogs.

[Guest jackieandryan]

We have a friend who has domesticated wolves on his property in Colorado that he rescued. One was real old and sick and the other wolf took it upon her self to end it. Only time I have ever heard of this happening.

[nancy]

Well, isn't that what we - as pack leaders - do when a dog gets too old and ill? Can we praise ourselves for being strong enough to do it and aghor other canines for the same behavior?

[Mudpups]

I know that some Jack Russells and Siberian Huskeys are known to do it, not so sure about the elderly ones, but certainly if others a sick or injured. And in these two breeds it has nothing to do with how they are raised or trained. I suspect it is most likely to be a breed thing, then maybe an individual dog thing rather than across the board.

 

My sister's Sibe had epilepsy and she had to keep him separated from the other two females when she wasn't there because if he fitted the other two would attack him, even though he was a much bigger dog. He was only five so not an elderly dog.

 

In the wild I would imagine that it is a survival mechanism to prevent the old and infirm from taking important pack resources and putting the pack in danger.

 

Michelle

[border_collie_crazy]

it happened in my house, but I think it depends more on the idivduals involved. Shadow was the leader of the pack for many years, when she got older the others turned on her, we had to rehome her for her own saftey, poor thing was covered in scabs and cuts, she was too terrified to come in the house because no matter where she was the other 5 would seek her out together and all attack her at once, it was horrable my house has a very open floor plan, the poor dog was litterlly living in my moms bedroom, we had to crate all the dogs, cover their crates and put Shade on a leash gentally coaxing her dowstairs past the covered crates and outside just so she could go potty. Shade is fine and happy is a new home now with a new pack that doesnt have an issue with her or her age(she's 11). its something I would never want to have a another dog go through.

 

my pack was not being bitchy with Shadow, they were trying to kill her, luky her fur is so thick that they only managed minor damage to her chest and throat. only shadow was NOT sick, she was 8 years old at the time and she is going on 12 in her new home, no issue with her new pack, and still perfectly healthy.

[PDing]

I just had surgery on my ankle and am fairly disabled in my current state. It was very obvious to Polo that I have severe injury, and Polo who has a very strong dominant behavior, tries at least once a day to challenge me. Besides, Polo is now 7 months which just adds more fuel to the flame.

 

On the plus side, with the extra time I have, Polo learned and improved on some of the tricks.

[Dixie_Girl]

I don't know. Lucy and Cheyenne are 11 and Missy is 10. Jackson is almost 3 and Skip is 1 1/2. Skip will do his snarky, I want this spot or whatever with Missy and Jackson. But he doesn't dare mess with Lucy and Cheyenne. I mean at all! They tell him whats what. Jackson and Missy try to ignore Skip. Lucy and Cheyenne on the other hand is much more "vocal" in their displeasure!

[Nisa]

We have never seen any of that at our place, even with the older dogs.

Near the end with Zeke Baby was actually protective of him and would snarl if any of the others got too close.

When Baby got sick, Chloe and Bernie did a lot of muzzle nuzzling with her and we can always tell when Buddy (the cocker) is about to have a seizure because Bernie will get really quiet and lay down near him, again being almost protective, but any other time Bernie pretty much ignores him.

[Ruger's Dad]

I read an article on Painted Dogs in Africa. They actually cared for the lame dogs in the pack. I think the article was in a National Geographic. The Painted Dogs are one of the greatest hunters in Africa. They use their stamina to bring down large game by running it down in relays. If I remember correctly, the pups actually ate first.

[Mudpups]

The Painted Dogs have an incredible social structure and communication system. We recently saw a DVD that had a section on these incredible creatures and their hunting strategy was even more amazing than wolves.

[Bo Peep]

Old "Miss Lacey" was the leader of the pack. Everyone respected her until the day she died. They gave her the "space" she needed when she wasn't feeling well. Just a "show of the teeth" even in her old tarter filled tooth years at 17 gave the pack the sign. Before I had to have her put down, I knew she was going deaf, and taught her a few signs. She knew her obedience signs, but I taught her "poop" and "I love you" and "you are pretty" and "thank you". When the doorbell rang and she no longer barked, I knew she was totally deaf. I was glad I spent that time going through the signs with her. Thanked my Grand son. Showed my dog "listen" like she could-lol, her ears perked up. We managed her deafness gracefully. The other dogs didn't seem to notice her decline, they knew she was ill, but still leader of the pack. No one ever tried to take her place until she passed.

Here's to you Miss Lacey the pool playing dog.

eta- she called the shots, and was right most the time- I just moved, and I carried her ashes in my car- don't trust the movers.

[jrid]

I had a beagle mix that ruled until she was about eleven and then my aussie female claimed top spot. I stopped the fight and removed the beagle from harms way. She and the Aussie no longer shared a run after that. I also carried my dogs ashes in my vehicle after she died. She had gone every where but to work with me for years, and it was over two years before I could take her ashes out of the vehicle. In fact, I think the only reason I took her ashes out was because I traded vehicles and had to clean the old one out.

[nowwown]

Everytime Cody meets an elderly dog, he is submissive, he is gentle, he is loving to it. He gets into an "army crawl" position so the old dog, whatever size it may be, is bigger than him. Amazingly insightful, in my opinion.

 

That is a totally different behavior than he displays with other dogs.

[Root Beer]

When Mickey was here, I saw a big difference in Sammie and Maddie's attitude toward him after he had a cluster of seizures.

 

Before the seizures, all four of my dogs liked him, played with him, and jovially accepted him as part of the group.

 

After the seizures, Sammie would growl if Mickey made eye contact with him, and Maddie would often start to bark if he moved suddenly. Pack management became very important after that and I was very careful to crate him when I wasn't home for his own safety.

 

Dean and Speedy, on the other hand, were not affected by it. For a few days after the seizures, Dean avoided Mickey, but by the time a week was out, they were best buddies playing all the time again. Speedy just didn't seem to care at all.

 

I think this is one of those things that depends on the dog.

[Liz P]

After the seizures, Sammie would growl if Mickey made eye contact with him, and Maddie would often start to bark if he moved suddenly. Pack management became very important after that and I was very careful to crate him when I wasn't home for his own safety.

 

Seizures are scary enough for people who at least know what is happening, imagine how dogs feel when they see AND smell them. It must be horrifying.

 

Duncan, my first BC, was an only dog for awhile. I was having trouble with him respecting his elders. A dog trainer I knew had a 6 yr old bitch who had raised a few litters. I put Duncan, who was a teenager at the time, in the yard with her for about an hour. He tried to be a jerk and she disciplined him very appropriately. After that he was very respectful of his elders and had much better dog manners. All of my other BCs have grown up with older BCs to guide them and naturally learned how to behave around other dogs. They all defer to older dogs, especially the ones who were raised by Duncan, aka Mr Mom.

[HighDesertSpice]

Seizures are scary enough for people who at least know what is happening, imagine how dogs feel when they see AND smell them. It must be horrifying.

 

Duncan, my first BC, was an only dog for awhile. I was having trouble with him respecting his elders. A dog trainer I knew had a 6 yr old bitch who had raised a few litters. I put Duncan, who was a teenager at the time, in the yard with her for about an hour. He tried to be a jerk and she disciplined him very appropriately. After that he was very respectful of his elders and had much better dog manners. All of my other BCs have grown up with older BCs to guide them and naturally learned how to behave around other dogs. They all defer to older dogs, especially the ones who were raised by Duncan, aka Mr Mom.

 

This is exactly what I'm thinking Oreo would benefit from. Do you suppose at 3.5 years, he is too old for this to be effective?

[Liz P]

This is exactly what I'm thinking Oreo would benefit from. Do you suppose at 3.5 years, he is too old for this to be effective?

 

 

No, but you need to be sure that the dog doing the teaching is very fair with his/her punishments. The bitch that taught Duncan how to behave gave clear warnings and when she needed to use her teeth she only bit hard enough to get the message across. It's not something I recommend because finding the right dog can be difficult and there is always the potential for someone getting hurt. The dog trainer who owned the bitch had more than 40 years of experience and knew her dog very well. I wouldn't just go use anyone's dog and would want supervision.

[HighDesertSpice]

No, but you need to be sure that the dog doing the teaching is very fair with his/her punishments. ....I wouldn't just go use anyone's dog and would want supervision.

 

Yes, very good advice & points well taken. At the moment, I have no candidates for this....and wouldn't set anything like this up unless I was very confident that we had the right dog & scenario.....