A question for those of you with auxiliary dogs.

[Geoffrey]

So as everyone knows this board/the working BC community as a whole, does not support anything t do with the AKC (or as so many enjoy putting it "ACK!"). Is it just BCs (and other herding/working breeds) that should not be AKC registered? What about the auxiliary dogs? Aren't the majority of breeders affiliated with the AKC? From what I can tell show breeders are the majority of the reputable breeders for many breeds, and even non-show breeders are still registering with the AKC. Heck, even BYBs register with the AKC.

 

 

I guess my real question is is the AKC bad as a whole, or is it the practice of registering working dogs like the BC and altering them for the show ring that people dissaprove of?

[1sheepdoggal]

I just got done reading McCaigs book "Dog Wars" It certinly didnt change the way I felt about the AKC but it certinly enhanced the distain I have held for them for many years. I was going to post about the AKC for you, but am still filled with so much animosity that the more I wrote, the more I felt that I wasnt able to give you anything but a flaming and bias opinion. Perhaps some one more elioquint than I will be able to tactfully explain things for you. Sorry, but I have nothing good to say about the org. Darci

[Shetlander]

I guess my real question is is the AKC bad as a whole, or is it the practice of registering working dogs like the BC and altering them for the show ring that people dissaprove of?

 

"Auxiliary dogs" I love it!

 

The only use I've ever had for AKC is the sports I've enjoyed competing in. The more I look at what they've done to various breeds -- not just Border Collies -- the more I see them as harmful. But that would happen under any registry where dogs are judged on conformation. Certain aspects of appearance get emphasized and/or exaggerated which leads to issues with soundness, not to mention all the fallout that comes from breeding for appearance with regards to health, temperament and of course the ability to do what the dog was originally bred for. Some breeds have been ruined beyond belief. Others don't seem as badly impacted but so many breeders are either careless or breed for the wrong reasons (e.g., ignoring a nasty temperament because the dog is so "perfect" in conformation).

[Dixie_Girl]

I have had no use for them long before I even knew what a border collie was! I think it was when I read a story about the poodle and how it originated as a HUNTING/retriever dog. They encourage "stupid" dogs that look "pretty". They encourage creepy builds in normally well built dogs. Example:Look at an ACK winning German Shepard, then look at a German Shepard from say, 20yrs ago. The whole back end of the dog is practically on the ground! The "new" bull dog can hardly breath at a rest, much less try to take on a 2000# steer! They decide on what they think looks good, people want to win so bad, they breed accordingly. They claim to promote pure breeds, but what they are really promoting is their version of said breed. An ACK dog only has to LOOK a certain way, not ACT a certain way.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I have an auxiliary dog that has no place but the AKC and her purpose in life (looking pretty and being a nice companion), is what the AKC's "good side" is about. This decision is a very long way off, but I'm working on competing in Rally with her an I'm pretty sure most of the competitions around here are AKC.

 

So, it's a question for me, too. I don't know what I'll do until the time comes to think about it further.

[Geoffrey]

I'm pretty sure most of the competitions around here are AKC.

 

 

You would be correct.

[Eileen Stein]

I don't have an auxiliary dog, because BCs fill all my canine needs, but if I did have an auxiliary dog, it would be a nice mix from the pound. I just don't see a point in breeding any dog for its looks, which is what AKC breeds are all about. Most dogs are appealing and lovable looking without needing to be bred to any appearance standard. And I don't feel any need to compete in some organized activity in order to have fun with a dog.

 

But all that being said, while I personally despise the AKC too much to ever register a dog with them, I don't think that registering some dogs (a pug, for example) with them is morally blameworthy the way registering a border collie would be. Probably some working border collie people have auxiliary dogs who are registered with the AKC. However, since Jack Russell Terriers are a very popular auxiliary dog for working BC owners, I should probably say that I don't think anyone would or should get an AKC-registered one of those, since JRTs too are working dogs who were the subject of a hostile takeover by the AKC, and they have a superior registry (the JRTCA), as we do.

[Pipedream Farm]

Our aux. dog is not AKC registered, he will be our last non-border collie for quite some time. Between puppies and retirees we'll always have Border Collies that are strictly house pets.

 

Mark

[2 Devils]

I don't have working border collies. I do have an acd (straight working lines, not AKC), toy poodle (not AKC), borderjack and a bc (who could be AKC but I chose not to have her registered).

 

My auxillary dog is the toy poodle. He is from what most consider a BYB and his breeder pretty much is a BYB. I chose her though because she bred for temperament not looks. She bred a toy to a mini so mine is a tall toy. She did health clearances but those don't really mean much sometimes. Aspen had to have many baby teeth pulled since they did not fall out so his teeth are screwy. He has very, very mild luxating patellas which is quite common in the toy breeds. Those are the bad things... Good things - he is super smart, great personality, very confident, drivey, easy to train and social. His breeder chose to sell pups when they were born because they were born shortly before xmas time and she did not want to sell xmas puppies. She then had a family issue and ended up not selling pups until they were 5 months old. I give her credit for that.

 

I prefer my auxillary dogs not to be registered BUT it will be quite hard to find one that is what you want. I got lucky and that won't happen again probably and my next toy poodle will probably end up AKC registered which I hate... I will most likely have a hard time finding my next ACD too.

[BCBERRI]

I have an American Eskimo for my "other" dog. He was a rescue. His breeder was supposedly an AKC breeder, however I didn't care. I think in his case, or breed for that matter, The AKC is not such a bad thing because they are pretty much bred for companionship and not working. He is probably the last "other" dog I will ever own as well. He is a good boy and I love him but he ain't a BC, that's for sure!

[Pippin's person]

Our auxiliary dog is a mutt and, though at one point I would have loved to have competed with him in AKC agility, he couldn't have ILP'ed as anything--he's clearly an island dog. That irritated me about the AKC before we even thought about border collies. Who cares if mixed breed dogs are involved in those kinds of events? I know that they are now considering allowing mutts to register for agility and stuff like that, but they face a lot of opposition from among their ranks.

 

I don't think I will ever register a dog of any kind with the AKC for any purpose (even though it seriously limits my options if I want to pursue activities like agility)--it would feel too compromising to me at this point since I find the basic premise of the dog fancy (which is also the basic premise behind the AKC) fundamentally icky. But, at the same time, I understand what leads people to do AKC activities (well, I don't understand AKC stock events, but that's a different topic) and thus have to register their dogs in order to do them.

[painted_ponies]

Aren't the majority of breeders affiliated with the AKC? From what I can tell show breeders are the majority of the reputable breeders for many breeds, and even non-show breeders are still registering with the AKC. Heck, even BYBs register with the AKC.

 

 

I guess my real question is is the AKC bad as a whole, or is it the practice of registering working dogs like the BC and altering them for the show ring that people dissaprove of?

 

This is the problem I have with AKC registration. Yes, most reputable breeders of "auxiliary dogs" register their litters with the AKC. But so do most BYB's. And so do puppy mills. AKC puts a lot of money into promoting purebred, AKC-registered dogs. They do this because in return AKC gets the $20/litter registration and the individual registration fees for each dog. However, the promotion makes the unsophisticated dog consumer think AKC registration=some kind of GoodDogKeeping seal of approval. So consumers buy AKC-eligible dogs from pet stores and BYB's and perpetuate the misery of the dogs used to produce puppy crops. AKC profits from this misery.

 

Had AKC never put a paw on my border collies, I still would refuse to support them or participate in any of their events for the reasons stated above. That's not to minimize the Dog Wars - I'm just saying there are others far more eloquent on that subject than I.

 

I didn't always feel this way. As a young adult I showed my own and clients' dogs in breed ring. I have seen conformation breeders mess up some dogs - the fashion for closed-face chows in the 80's led to entropion and ulcerated corneas, for example. I've also got to say I've seen conformation breeders improve other breeds. Norwegian Elkhounds, for example. Their temperaments have been vastly improved as a direct result of breed judges refusing to hand out ribbons with blood on 'em. Nasty dogs didn't win, so breeders bred for temperament. I'm sure the dogs were lots happier, too.

 

Almost no organization is all bad. You just have to decide whether the bad outweighs the good.

[FlyByNight]

My heart belongs to the working GSD, which are all registered with AKC in the 'States (despite working GSD enthusiasts lamenting what the show ring has done to their breed). Eh, no way around that one for me, I can't live without my Shepherds.

[PSmitty]

I'm struggling with this myself. I ILP'ed my auxiliary dog with AKC (she's a rescue), in the hopes of competing in agility with her. That hasn't quite happened yet (we have issues ), we've tried a fun match or two, but that's about it. Anyway, I did it because I thought there weren't very many non-AKC agility events in my area, and before I understood the situation clearly. I realize now there are more non AKC events than I thought, but still the majority are AKC. *shrug*

 

I won't ILP my border collie or compete in AKC events with him, so it feels hypocritical to do so with my lab. I don't know, maybe I'm not struggling with it at all, but I have been thinking about it a lot lately.

[Carson Crazies]

My Auxillary Dog is a 13 year old Papillon (Zippy). I adopted him from PCAR at about 11 years old. I have no earthly idea if he is registered with any organization. I have an awful hard time with the thought of giving the AKC any money or encouraging the breeding of dogs based on conformation period. I also realize that dogs like Papillons and Chinese Cresteds were bred solely based on keeping the Gentry's laps warm, so they're either bred to an appearance standard, or otherwise bred indiscriminantly pretty much. So... when Zippy is gone I'm not sure what I'll do. At the moment the DH has quite a dislike for the Small Dog, so I suspect he'll be replaced with a Border Collie (or something larger that doesn't find it's way under his feet or yarks incessantly).

 

If I *were* in the market for a well bred Papillon, I'm afraid the AKC is pretty much the only game in town. At least there IS a standard - and theoretically I'd be looking for a breeder that takes into consideration ALL of the things I find important. I think there should be a responsibility on the buyer's part of ANY dog to make sure the breeder is responsible and breeds well. But honestly, if I wind up having to make a choice I'll go the rescue route. Probably won't come to that though, as I think the DH is swearing off Small Dogs.

[ShoresDog]

Daisy and I met a really nice lady walking two very personable Papillons up on the UCSD campus, and as dogowners do, we fell to chatting. These Papillons were really, really nice and very well trained. These two competed in agility, in the "tiny" class, whatever that is (I don't know much about agility). I commented on how nice looking her dogs were. In a somewhat embarassed way, she said that they really didn't look the way "ideal" Paps were supposed to look. She shared how she and other agility nuts preferred and bred them leggier than the AKC standard because they preferred an athletic dog that could get around the course faster, and of course trainability was more important to them than looking like a show dog. So maybe there's more rebellion out there than we know, even in "AKC breeds."

[stockdogranch]

I don't have an auxiliary dog, because BCs fill all my canine needs, but if I did have an auxiliary dog, it would be a nice mix from the pound. I just don't see a point in breeding any dog for its looks, which is what AKC breeds are all about. Most dogs are appealing and lovable looking without needing to be bred to any appearance standard. And I don't feel any need to compete in some organized activity in order to have fun with a dog.

 

My sentiments EXACTLY!

A

[MrSnappy]

My auxiliary dog IS a nice mutt from the pound. And if I wanted a nice purebred as an auxiliary dog, it would come from the pound as well, or from a breed rescue. I don't need KC registration for any of the things I like to do for my dogs.

 

Someone last night was chatting about her new Toller puppy, which is now 2 weeks old, and will be coming home in 6 weeks. A friend asked her if she had chosen one for herself and if so, how did she pick which one she wanted? Her reply was that the breeder wanted her to take the one with the best markings, since she knew she wanted to breed her down the line. And then she went on to say that she went to a show earlier this year and it looked like it was easy and lots of the dogs got little prizes and she knew she would have to do stuff like that before she bred her puppy, but that was nifty.

 

Talk about putting the cart before the horse! Talk about the cart being broken and the horse out to pasture. The whole concept of how show dogs are selected, sold and bred is bizarre to me.

 

RDM

[Root Beer]

This is an interesting question. A friend of mine really wants a Golden Puppy. She is not interested in rescue or adopting an older dog. She asked me how to find a good breeder since I'm "into dogs". I honestly didn't know what to tell her. Everything is so different with Border Collies.

 

If I were looking for a Golden (which I never will be), I would probably go through rescue, but that's about all I know!

[OffTopic]

Honestly, I had never really thought AKC=BAD until I started reading this board, but I can absolutely see the point that working/herding dogs risk having those qualities diluted by the AKC conformation standards.

And y'all might end up hating me after this post.

I may have a different perspective here, because my first choice dog is a keeshond(wolfspitzen) and BC is my second choice or auxiliary dog. If I could only have 1 dog I'd pick a kees.

Luckily I can have 2, so I get the great pleasure of having one of each. They're both smart and quirky breeds.

 

Max is my third kees and when it's time for him to leave me, I will get another puppy and it will be from an AKC breeder because I want it to....well, look and act like a kees. I love the kees puppy experience. They're just like little tribbles* with sharp, pointy teeth and they make me smile like no other puppy can.

However, even though I do want the prettiest puppy I can find/afford, I've never registered any of my kees with the AKC because I have no interest in breeding or showing and I could care less what a piece of paper says regarding the "purity" of my pet.

 

So AKC registration doesn't make me giddy......but I wonder without the AKC, would I be able to find this breed in the US? It's not a popular breed like Goldens or Labs. More than half the people who ask "Oh, is that a chow?" have never heard of keeshonden. I think with some breeds, the AKC is a good thing because it keeps Goldens and Labs from being the only available dogs on the planet .

 

 

*geeky Star Trek reference

[border_collie_crazy]

I have 4 auxillery dogs and 2 BCs. 3 of the non BCs are rescues, the other is Electra..she is AKC and CKC, he sire is the number 2 Toller in the AKC right now, and yes, I show her. BUT I only show her because she is entirly usless for everything I wanted, she is a fluke, her lines are not known for conformation, while they do quite well, when most people in Tollers think of her lines, they think Preformance and great temperment. that the only reason I was willing to go with her AKC lines and overlook the showing part, because I had lots of references from people who know her lines non of then could stop praising the lines wonderful preformance and temperment. naturally I ended up with the only dog in her lines with no preformance ability whatsoever lol. although she does had a GREAT temperment, she is nothing but pretty. since she is usless for preformance I decided I mid as well show her, get SOME titles on her as she is VERY nice for the breed, then I will spay her and do Rally-O lol. my next Toller however will be strictly working lines and Leck did lead me to retriever classes and the hard core hunting retriever folks told me about some great Toller breeders who compete in the local retriever trials as well as do real hunting, so next time I will be able to find the Toller I actually wanted lol

[Eileen Stein]

I wonder without the AKC, would I be able to find this breed in the US? It's not a popular breed like Goldens or Labs. More than half the people who ask "Oh, is that a chow?" have never heard of keeshonden. I think with some breeds, the AKC is a good thing because it keeps Goldens and Labs from being the only available dogs on the planet.

 

Don't hate you at all, don't think what you're doing is particularly bad (given that your breed wasn't assimilated against its will and isn't threatened in its essence), but I wonder why you think that without the Borg* you wouldn't be able to find keeshonden in the US. Why couldn't there be a breed club/registry only for them, made up of people who love the breed, the way there was for Jack Russells and border collies and Aussies and Cavalier King Charles spaniels back before they were popular breeds? I really, sincerely don't understand that. I think that any single-breed organization is inherently superior to a Kennel Club, precisely because the Kennel Club is NOT a single-breed organization, doesn't have any particular knowledge of or dedication to any one breed, and tries to fit all the breeds it assimilates into its generic round holes no matter how square-peggy they may be. There are clubs for everything -- there are certainly clubs for much more obscure breeds than keeshonden in the US. Why do they have to be AKC affiliated?

 

 

*geeky Star Trek reference

[Liz P]

A good friend of mine growing up had Goldens and I LOVED them, but my family is a BC family so that is what I have (an no regrets either!). Well, I was in for a shock when I started to do sports with my dogs and was exposed to "real" (AKC) Goldens. They were not anything like the dogs I grew up around! Turns out my friend had field bred dogs. They were lovely. Small, athletic, very moderate coat that ranged from deep ginger to medium blond but never that pale yellow you see in the ring these days. Most of her bitches were about 30 to 45 lbs, males no larger than 65 lbs. They were built to move all day and had no trouble keeping up with my BCs. They were also super smart and could learn tricks nearly as fast as my BCs and got bored almost as easily. I can't say a single bad thing about them and if I wasn't so busy with herding I would be thrilled to own one as a pet. I have no idea if they were AKC registered or not, just that all their parents did what Goldens are supposed to do, retrieve birds!

 

If I were to have a "pet" dog it would be very small, otherwise my pets would just be retired BCs. I've met a lot of small mutts in the south that were perfect. One looked exactly like a GSD only she weighed 10 lbs. Her owner had to pry her out of my arms She was too cute for words, a saddle sable with prick ears and lovely dark brown eyes. I wouldn't have an AKC registered pet because I don't feel the need to spend loads of money when there are plenty of cute little dogs in rescue. I feel the same way about cats. I wouldn't be caught dead buying one. I have a wonderful pet cat right now who was rescued from a feral colony after some ******* tried to kill him.

[kelpiegirl]

I have an old girl- a mutt- 14 now. She is a mix of beagle/springer- I think. We did AMBOR obedience (american mixed breed obedience registry). This is pretty popular. I actually competed amongst other purebreds at trials. So, there are ways to do obedience, and not register with akc.

 

If one is an avid obedience competitor, though, AKC, is the go to organization. Well, there is SchutzHund, wherein you can get a SchHB, and that is all obedience- and you are judged against high test working dogs.

 

I think if I ever got a non herding dog, it would still have to be a working dog- so, say a retriever, and I would compete in field trials (not akc).

[kajarrel]

I think with some breeds, the AKC is a good thing because it keeps Goldens and Labs from being the only available dogs on the planet.

 

We'd probably be thinking this about the border collie if there wasn't the ongoing resistance that there is. I have 2 dogs that aren't border collies and both, a GSD and a beagle-Bassett, come from working lines (were bred based on working ability). The GSD is a police-force flunky (he didn't "bite hard enough") and the bagel came from a working pack of rabbit dogs. They're both great dogs. Ralph, the GSD, even herds a little. I've been told that this is true for GSDs from German lines where the dogs still herd.

 

Kim