A question for those of you with auxiliary dogs.

[OffTopic]

I wonder why you think that without the Borg* you wouldn't be able to find keeshonden in the US. Why couldn't there be a breed club/registry only for them, made up of people who love the breed, the way there was for Jack Russells and border collies and Aussies and Cavalier King Charles spaniels back before they were popular breeds? I really, sincerely don't understand that.

Eileen, it's certainly possible that there would be breed clubs without the AKC for the kees, but I do know that in my particular case I would never have heard of the breed without them. When I was researching dog breeds the only available reference books in our small town library were AKC breed books. This was in the dinosaur days before the Internet was a gleam in Al Gore's eye.

And my scenario really was a question. I don't necessarily think kees wouldn't be available, but I do wonder if they would. According to several history accounts of the breed, they were assimilated pretty soon after the first litter was born in the US. The national breed club was founded after the inclusion in the AKC. So it's impossible to say whether or not they would have flourished here without it. By all accounts the breed came close to extinction because of political connections (the dogs were destroyed after their namesake fell out of favor politically) and saving the breed was a British endeavor.

 

But, in any case, I do understand the animosity toward the AKC regarding working dogs. I really do. Watching dog shows and seeing those poor GSDs with their painful looking low slung rear ends is proof that something is wrong in the world of dog breeding.

It's a shame that (some? most?)breeders are more interested in raising show dogs than raising healthy representatives of (whatever) breed. But is that really the fault of the organization itself? Or the fault of the greedy breeders who want Ch. after Ch. after Ch. so they can charge more for their litters?

Again, just a question, not an absolute opinion.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I just found out that in their native Germany, the kees is simply a variety of a single breed that encompasses five sizes.

 

So in fact, in my mind, the kees represents yet another kennel club muck-up of a breed. Similiar to the Belgians that are registered as different "breeds" here, when they are recognized as the variety they represent in the breed.

 

This is one of the things that weirds me out about the AKC. They hate variety, try to explain it away, segregate it, eliminate it. Anything but a "one size fits all" dog is anethema to them.

 

But variety, on the other hand, is healthiest for a breed and especially a breed that works.

 

So, it's a dilemma.

[painted_ponies]

It's a shame that (some? most?)breeders are more interested in raising show dogs than raising healthy representatives of (whatever) breed. But is that really the fault of the organization itself? Or the fault of the greedy breeders who want Ch. after Ch. after Ch. so they can charge more for their litters?

 

Yes, it is the AKC's fault, just as much as it is the breeders'. AKC is the organization rewarding the breeders' efforts by conferring titles on the dogs. Thereby allowing them to charge more for their litters. So that AKC makes the money to register the dogs from those litters.

 

Single breed registries have demonstrated their ability to effectively police their membership. For example, I've read that the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel registry, pre-hostile-AKC-takeover, was able to keep their breed out of the hands of the puppy-millers by refusing to register the dogs they would've produced. They can't do that anymore, of course.

 

My last breed, chows, would've been far better off without AKC registration. Partly because of the conformation standard, which results in animals with very straight rear legs and resulting knee problems; overly profuse double-coat and attendant skin conditions; heavy facial folds that lead to entropion, etc. But mostly because of the increased visibility that came from AKC recognition. People who had no business owning chows wound up with chows, they gained a reputation for being aggressive, and the sort of people who want aggressive dogs began seeking them out and trying to produce aggressive dogs. Which was not a happy result for the breed or for individual dogs.

[sea4th]

Years ago, I had kees. I love the breed. Great family dogs. Great personalities. Bold without malice. Before Pete, my best buddy was Buster, my kees.

 

I know different types of "wolfspitze" are or at least were popular at one time in northern Europe. They and GSD's were the much admired dogs of the people I grew up around (relocated post WWII immigrants). The kees are the "people's" dog of Holland, but again, just one variety of several different types of wolfspitz. I think the pom is the smallest.

 

Kees were bred strictly for companionship and you'd really be hard pressed to find a better companion dog.

 

Buster was my kids' nursemaid, playmate and protector. My daughter got hurt one time while I was at work. Buster never left her side until I got home. So impressed were my relatives that they wound up getting a female kees, an adult dog, who wormed her way into the heart of a staunch GSD snob, my uncle. They became inseparable. My uncle collapsed and died in the house. The night of his funeral, the kees went frantically from person to person, searching, so obviously worried that my uncle was not longer there. Can a dog shed tears of grief? I don't know, but there were tears in her eyes that night as she searched for my uncle. For years, she chose to sleep in the hallway, the same spot where he had collapsed, in spite of the fact that it was in the middle of a much used path in the house.

 

Remarkable dogs, these kees.

[sea4th]

Sorry, didn't address the initial question. Just had to share my admiration for a breed that I love.

[Geoffrey]

I just found out that in their native Germany, the kees is simply a variety of a single breed that encompasses five sizes.

 

 

I always found the classifications to be a bit iffy - the Keeshond we have in America is the Dutch version, which is somewhat different from the original german version. It gets hard to classify the different varieties as simply different sizes of the same breed when they are so different (ie. pomeranian vs keeshond vs american eskimo, etc). I think the breeds have diverged a lot in modern times (not just in the US) and the classification is getting hard to apply.

[OffTopic]

I just found out that in their native Germany, the kees is simply a variety of a single breed that encompasses five sizes.

So in fact, in my mind, the kees represents yet another kennel club muck-up of a breed.

This is confusing, I'll admit. Can I assume you read the Wiki article? I ask, because that's the first article I've ever seen stating Germany as the kees native country. Keeshond have historically been linked to the Netherlands and as Geoffry mentioned, most of the kees here are from the Dutch strain (by way of England).

 

But, yes, there are 5 German Spitz "types"....the Grosspitz (big) the Mittelspitz (medium or American Eskimo dog) the Kleinspitz (small) the Wolfspitz (kees type), and the Zwergspitz (dwarf or Pomeranian). They are grouped together as a breed.

To make matters even more confusing, the Dutch call all of the dogs in the German Spitz group "Keeshond". At least according to my friend from Holland. She has a white keeshond, or mittlespitz. We would call it an American Eskimo.

 

But I don't see a muck-up here. I wouldn't breed a Pom and a Kees together if I wanted an American Eskimo, would I? Just because the Germans still lump them together doesn't mean the AKC screwed it up by separating them out. They're still different dogs no matter the designation.

German breeders who want a swartz grosspitz litter aren't going to breed a swartz grosspitz with a wolfspitz even though they have the same breed designation. Right? Or is my logic not holding up here?

 

Remarkable dogs, these kees.

Yup. I agree. Glad there's another fan of the breed on the board!

[sea4th]

Keeshond have historically been linked to the Netherlands and as Geoffry mentioned, most of the kees here are from the Dutch strain (by way of England).

 

First time I had ever heard of the country of origin being Germany as well. Wolfspitz I've always assumed to be a blanket term used by Germans anyway. The name Keeshond itself is very much Dutch, was named after a leader of the revolt against the House of Orange in the 1700's. A pug symbolized the House of Orange at that time. The kees, a symbol of the Netherlander. So it's recognition as a separate breed began in the Netherlands.

 

I know some early translations of the Caucasian Ovcharka pedigrees were done by Germans and much was skewed in the translation process from Russian to German. Early on, it was the German translations of those pedigrees that were really the only ones available. (the word ovcharka has no "t" in it, but you often see it spelled "ovtcharka", and that, I believe stems from early German translations).

 

I have an ovcharka, born in Siberia, but I can't call her an auxilliary dog. She's too big and has too much attitude.

[sheepandakom]

I must be lucky. My other breed is Komondors. Although they are shown and many do quite well, the breeders haven't ruined the temperament in doing so. In fact, I think most people have Koms because they love the temperament. My BC's aren't AKC registered and they never will be, but my next Komondor will be a show dog. Several of the breeders breed both working and show dogs from the same litters. A friend of mine has a Komondor that was originally sold to guard Alpacas. The family that had her got divorced and no longer needed the dog. She's now living with the friend and is a successful show dog, too. Others have raised puppies with livestock, shown them to their championship and then returned them to the field. It is possible, but in many breeds, not very common.

 

Emily

[SoloRiver]

But I don't see a muck-up here. I wouldn't breed a Pom and a Kees together if I wanted an American Eskimo, would I? Just because the Germans still lump them together doesn't mean the AKC screwed it up by separating them out. They're still different dogs no matter the designation.

German breeders who want a swartz grosspitz litter aren't going to breed a swartz grosspitz with a wolfspitz even though they have the same breed designation. Right? Or is my logic not holding up here?

 

The way I look at it is, probably there are a lot of breeders who won't cross size varieties, but formalizing them into separate breeds removes the option of doing so. Given how tiny and inbred purebred gene pools are becoming, I don't see how it is a good thing to create divisions based on things as superficial as a few inches in size.

 

My first dog was a Pomeranian, and she was the best dog I'll ever have. Solo has become the dog of my heart, but I will admit that he has his faults. Harley the Pomeranian had none: she was beautiful, vivacious, wickedly intelligent, naturally well-mannered, athletic, and always up for anything. The whole world loved her, including me -- I loved her desperately, and my devastation when she died is what led to make the ill-thought-out decision to take home a nearly feral unwanted Border Collie essentially on a whim (which is how I ended up where I am today with the dog of my heart). So, I have a history of loving spitzes.

 

with Harley on a hike in Seattle, 1999

 

Harley was a rescue, your typical mill-bred oversized orange Pom in appearance except for her exceptionally expressive face. If I could find another like her from a responsible breeder of show dogs (which is most of the responsible Pom breeders in this country) I would do it in a heartbeat. But I can't. They don't breed Harleys, they breed tiny wind-up toys with Chow faces. So I doubt that I would buy an AKC-registered Pom for an auxiliary dog, even though if I were to choose an auxiliary dog now it would have to be a Pomeranian. (I dabbled in Papillons with my ex-Pap Skeeter; I like them, but they aren't Poms.)

 

The German Kleinspitz or Zwergspitz is much closer to what Harley was in looks than our domestic Poms are -- I don't know about behavior, though. Harley didn't act anything like your typical Pom -- for only one example, she almost never barked. If I were to buy a Pom I'd probably want to find a breeder of the German type if that's possible. Otherwise I'll rescue another big orange Pom. There are plenty of them available, I would simply wait for the right one.

 

The only breeder I ever knew of producing Poms of the type I liked wasn't doing it responsibly. She pulled two from a shelter she did rescue at and bred them to produce agility Poms. The Poms she bred were wonderful, however, and I will admit I was tempted to get a pup. If the only decent Border Collies left were being bred by someone who pulled them from a shelter, I'd get one from that breeder. The Pom situation is not quite that dire, so I couldn't justify it.

[bc4pack]

One quick comment about AKC conformation...regardless of breed.

When a particular dog wins, he becomes a 'popular' sire...regardless of

temperament... looking for Mr Perfect... There are some rather 'nastily, aggressive Goldens' out

there that can trace back to a certain sire....

[painted_ponies]

One quick comment about AKC conformation...regardless of breed.

When a particular dog wins, he becomes a 'popular' sire...regardless of

temperament... looking for Mr Perfect... There are some rather 'nastily, aggressive Goldens' out

there that can trace back to a certain sire....

 

Is that how that happened? I came across one walking around my dad's subdivision one day. I passed a house with a loose dog in the yard, saw it was a Golden, and nonchalantly continued walking past. Even when it charged at me, I thought it was just in a big hyper blonde hurry to get to me to get petted. Turned out such was not the case.