Once again. so sad....

[Rosanne]

Actually, a "did you see how that handler was dressed" thread would be quite amusing. Skimming through channels I occasionally see someone huffing and puffing as they attempt to trot their dog in a long skirt. Never fails to amuse me actually.

 

And yes, I know that is not necessarily nice, but if some long skirted handler wishes to defend her actions, she's welcome to do it.

 

 

Well gosh, if I was going to see how they were dressed, I would have to be adding to the ratings of those awful beauty pageants! ick!

 

Maybe if the huffing puffing handlers got themselves real working dogs they could train them to trot around the ring alone and spare the handler the exercise!

(or maybe they breed dogs to match themselves?)

[Katelynn & Gang]

Wow, this has went WAY over board.

 

For this dogs feelings on me calling his head "ugly" (lmao! I cannot believe I even have to write this): I am sure he can care less, after all, he is just a dog and I am sure he isn't reading this but I may be wrong.

 

The joke was that conformation breeders cannot even get working ability correct when breeding, let alone good looks and sound conformation (which, compared to breeding for abilities, is S.I.M.P.L.E).

 

Oh and just for the record, I won't stop picking my breeding dogs based on working ability just because I find this Barbies head to be "ugly" and non Border Collie like.

 

Though when picking a puppy from a working bred litter, there is still not guarantee the puppy is going to work, so why not pick one you believe to be pretty? I mean, if there is a small possibility it isn't going to work livestock, the least you can do it make sure it matches the rug!

 

I don't know about everyone else's working bred litters but my puppies are always drop dead gorguse and I am still yet to have one puppy that wont work.

 

Everyone lighten up. I love you all, its snowing and I just really wanna work my dogs but its to cold!

 

Katelynn and all Her Ugly Dogs

[Patty Abel]

Just some thoughts...Not defending anyone...I don't think border collies(or ANY breed for that matter) should be bred on the basis of conformation as a sport. But they are...I do watch the shows on TV. I like dogs! There are different body styles born to show dog lines. There are just as many "ACK" willowy BC's as there are fluffy bunny BCs. They get sold as companions for family and sport. And yes, some even have working instinct. Breeders put up the ones that are getting the judge's attention. Their goal is to be successful. Westminster is the "best" of the "best", and you see very little variety within any of the breeds. The written standard gives lots of leeway to body style in border collies. There is even allowances for scratches and dings. I think the judges should have a little more guts in judging if the "ACK" wants to present a balanced breed. At least there were only 19, did anyone notice how many golden retrievers were entered?

[Sue R]

I didn't watch it - of course, I had much the same response, Maria, if you'll note my previous post.

 

The point about OUR dogs that would be laughed out the ring is that it's a ridiculous notion to cull top notch dogs on the basis of looks alone - or breed them to dogs that are of inferior working ability (or untested ability) - the single reason being completely unfounded ideas that "moderate bone equals endurance" or "correct fronts enable the dog to crouch better." Not to even mention irrelevancies like ear set, coat, and eye color.

 

ETA: I think the idea about "pretty is as pretty does", is not that dogs that aren't working can't be attractive. It's in opposition to the idea that the show dogs represent the epitome of beauty in a Border Collie. Those aren't the dogs worthiest of our admiration - it's the ones doing what the breed has always been bred to do best - work livestock. That doesn't stop us from oohing and ahhing over a cute pup or a dog making a nice agility run or even galloping with hair flying (or just being adorable like Ben with the lamb in my avatar). It's a matter of what defines the breed ultimately, however.

 

Thank you, Rebecca, for explaining some of the things I was trying to express and doing it so much better.

[Maralynn]

Oh and just for the record, I won't stop picking my breeding dogs based on working ability just because I find this Barbies head to be "ugly" and non Border Collie like.

 

Though when picking a puppy from a working bred litter, there is still not guarantee the puppy is going to work, so why not pick one you believe to be pretty? I mean, if there is a small possibility it isn't going to work livestock, the least you can do it make sure it matches the rug!

 

I don't know about everyone else's working bred litters but my puppies are always drop dead gorguse and I am still yet to have one puppy that wont work.

 

Everyone lighten up. I love you all, its snowing and I just really wanna work my dogs but its to cold!

 

Katelynn and all Her Ugly Dogs

 

Playing devils advocate here

 

If working dogs tended to be more blocky, and ACK dogs long and lean, would your opinion flip flop as to which dogs were "beautiful", and which ones were "ugly"? Or would you not have BC's? If BC's are bred for solely for working ability, and looks don't matter, how can you say that the shape of the head is wrong? My 2 dogs look like complete opposites (1 rough, one smooth, one prick eared, one tipped, on is 25% larger than the other one. The only thing they share is that BC sparkle in the eye and work ethic (and a split face ). If Kipp had looked like a "barbie" dog, but had that sparkle and work ethic, I'd have still gotten him - because I wasn't looking for a dog based on looks.

 

Now, that said, I hate the fact that show breeders are taking a useful breed and turning it into cookie cutter clones. And I have come to cringe at the looks of a "Barbie Collie" for that reason.

 

BTW, Missy and Kipp want to know what you mean by "too cold to work" in MI... they say "never"

[Eileen Stein]

What I understand people to be saying in their "ugly" comments is: How odd it is that people who are breeding for beauty are producing such unattractive and insipid results. Not that the posters are judging the dogs on how they look, but they are judging the "ideal" that show breeders are striving for and priding themselves on, and finding it wanting even aesthetically. How much those breeders are giving up, to achieve something so paltry as this! I must say this is way down there on my list of reasons for condemning conformation showing, yet when I look at the Border Collies on parade, I understand the feeling.

 

But this has become an annual ritual -- posters express sadness and disgust at the the conformation ideal for Border Collies when Westminster rolls around, and Maria posts that they are judging the dogs on their looks, which they say you shouldn't do. Ah, the rites of winter.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Now, that said, I hate the fact that show breeders are taking a useful breed and turning it into cookie cutter clones. And I have come to cringe at the looks of a "Barbie Collie" for that reason.

 

Agreed. And the more I see of the Clone Collies, the harder it is to restrain the cringe and remind myself to give the dog the benefit of the doubt. The last flyball tournament I went to, for instance, had several of them. Some I knew were "crossovers" but still had that look. Probably their breeders thought they were producing dogs that could "do it all!" These dogs looked hot, raring to go, barked and looked nuts just like the dogs that weren't as "pretty." They shot away from their handlers and looked like they were going like a house afire.

 

But I watched the times (wow, the splits are right up there where you can watch them now, where have I been?) and oddly, it was rare to see one break 5 seconds, and that was the first run, and early in the tourney. It's odd how they seem to expend a lot of energy, look like they are going fast, and then . . .don't. Just like the ones I've seen working seem to move around a lot but rarely really connect with the stock. Could it be that the breed ring selects for unfocused energy? Or just fails to select for purposefulness?

 

I know this is a teeny sample and that I've got lurkers yelling at me about all the 3.9 second ONYX, OTCh, WTCh Westminister winners they know, but I simpy bring this up to ask what DOES the breed ring select for besides a certain look and a Frankenstein laboratory vision of soundness? What are the implications of setting in the breed the abilities to ignore movement around it, put itself forward of the handler, project movement without- er - moving, and endure hours of grooming quietly?

 

Really?

[borderlicious]

KATELYNN! How dare you call my Dakota ugly. You'll be getting a visit from him when you least expect it, just for that. We hates it, precious, we hates it forever!

 

I don't see why the dog is worth noticing. He looks like practically every other dog in the breed ring. Come to think of it, my own dog does as well, but he's my dog and I appreciate him for what's beneath the pretty coat, smooshy face and short tail. Judging him on how much more cookie-cutter he is than all the other dogs in a ring is just not something I'm interested in. It doesn't determine his value. Breeding dogs to look more "typical" than any of the other dogs in the ring is just disgraceful. People say they're breeding to a standard. Maybe some are, but in Border Collies I can see that they are decidedly breeding these "borders" with no regards to their standard. They have their own standard, one that overturns soundness in favor of politics and trophies.

 

I don't have anything against the dogs. I think a lot of them are very nice dogs, my own dog is a very nice dog. I think he's striking, but not in a "this is what a Border Collie should look like" sense. Nobody should define what a BC should look like, whether it's dripping in coat, with a short muzzle and tipped ears, or rangy and prick-eared, with a super slick smooth coat. We all have our preferences. I personally like a very wide variety of looks and can see beauty in most Border Collies. My two dogs look very different but I think they are both beautiful. Even the homeliest dog is a thing of beauty when it's doing what it was bred to.

 

Sadly before leaving the dark side, I was immersed in the conformation world and got a pretty good idea of just how misguided they are. For some reason, conformation people see BYB/sporter collies and assume that they are "working" BCs. Often these dogs have terrible structure and fall apart over time even when doing things like agility and flyball. They (show breeders) think, as a result, that their dogs are superior because they aren't structural disasters. Most have never seen a well-bred working dog, just these sport dogs from BYBs that people label as "herdy" because they're insane. I'm certainly not making excuses for their ignorance, but I find it interesting that they rarely have any idea what a good working dog is really like. Perhaps this accounts for some of the major differences between their show dogs, other people's insane sport dogs (and I do attest to having one of these. He's a good dog, but has very little impulse control to go with his immense drive) and the real working dogs.

 

As far as structure goes - form follows function, and I have yet to see a dog more sound in structure than a good working BC. I happen to think my own puppy is a good example. No, she's not obese like the show-bred pups and she has a shorter coat, but if you're looking at what's beneath the fur and flesh, that's a dog that can stand up to a lot of hard work without any structural extremities holding her back. That's all that matters.

 

 

I don't see this discussion going anywhere, to be honest, and at this point I'm just rambling. I guess I don't understand why these individual dogs always have to be called out and ridiculed. No point to this post, I suppose, but as always I had an uncontrollable urge to throw in my insomnia-induced .02.

[kelpiegirl]

Hey there- Even stacks quite nicely!!!! I agree with you and maria, it isn't about appearances. Basically, when talking working dogs, it isn't about anything but the work, and the rest is just periphery. And, the term "whatever" should apply.

Julie

 

KATELYNN! How dare you call my Dakota ugly. You'll be getting a visit from him when you least expect it, just for that. We hates it, precious, we hates it forever!

 

I don't see why the dog is worth noticing. He looks like practically every other dog in the breed ring. Come to think of it, my own dog does as well, but he's my dog and I appreciate him for what's beneath the pretty coat, smooshy face and short tail. Judging him on how much more cookie-cutter he is than all the other dogs in a ring is just not something I'm interested in. It doesn't determine his value. Breeding dogs to look more "typical" than any of the other dogs in the ring is just disgraceful. People say they're breeding to a standard. Maybe some are, but in Border Collies I can see that they are decidedly breeding these "borders" with no regards to their standard. They have their own standard, one that overturns soundness in favor of politics and trophies.

 

I don't have anything against the dogs. I think a lot of them are very nice dogs, my own dog is a very nice dog. I think he's striking, but not in a "this is what a Border Collie should look like" sense. Nobody should define what a BC should look like, whether it's dripping in coat, with a short muzzle and tipped ears, or rangy and prick-eared, with a super slick smooth coat. We all have our preferences. I personally like a very wide variety of looks and can see beauty in most Border Collies. My two dogs look very different but I think they are both beautiful. Even the homeliest dog is a thing of beauty when it's doing what it was bred to.

 

Sadly before leaving the dark side, I was immersed in the conformation world and got a pretty good idea of just how misguided they are. For some reason, conformation people see BYB/sporter collies and assume that they are "working" BCs. Often these dogs have terrible structure and fall apart over time even when doing things like agility and flyball. They (show breeders) think, as a result, that their dogs are superior because they aren't structural disasters. Most have never seen a well-bred working dog, just these sport dogs from BYBs that people label as "herdy" because they're insane. I'm certainly not making excuses for their ignorance, but I find it interesting that they rarely have any idea what a good working dog is really like. Perhaps this accounts for some of the major differences between their show dogs, other people's insane sport dogs (and I do attest to having one of these. He's a good dog, but has very little impulse control to go with his immense drive) and the real working dogs.

 

As far as structure goes - form follo

ws function, and I have yet to see a dog more sound in structure than a good working BC. I happen to think my own puppy is a good example. No, she's not obese like the show-bred pups and she has a shorter coat, but if you're looking at what's beneath the fur and flesh, that's a dog that can stand up to a lot of hard work without any structural extremities holding her back. That's all that matters.

 

 

I don't see this discussion going anywhere, to be honest, and at this point I'm just rambling. I guess I don't understand why these individual dogs always have to be called out and ridiculed. No point to this post, I suppose, but as always I had an uncontrollable urge to throw in my insomnia-induced .02.

[bcnewe2]

quote:

If working dogs tended to be more blocky, and ACK dogs long and lean, would your opinion flip flop as to which dogs were "beautiful", and which ones were "ugly"?

end quote

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Yep. If they can do the job is all that matters to me!

 

Didn't see the show,

can't add anymore to this thread than has already been written,

but there's my .02 cents worth.

 

Almost freezing in AR

Kristen

[Kyrasmom]

But this has become an annual ritual -- posters express sadness and disgust at the the conformation ideal for Border Collies when Westminster rolls around, and Maria posts that they are judging the dogs on their looks, which they say you shouldn't do. Ah, the rites of winter.

 

So true...though in my defense...I almost didn't but then my fingers got the best of me...twice.

 

I'm just one of those saps who are unable to find an ugly dog one I've looked at it. My female Pit mix (labeled as an Aussie mix at animal control when I accepted to foster her and her 9 3 day old puppies sight unseen and there is nothing remotely Aussie about her) I deemed unattractive the first second I saw her...and then she became beautiful to me. Oddly enough she has the effect on everyone who meets her. My husband was in Italy at the time and I told him, "she's not really the type of dog we usually are drawn to but I don't think I'm placing her". So we have her AND one of her sons who according to my husband is "the most beautiful dog in the world".

 

I just hate labeling dogs as "ugly" even though it's understandable and completely natural to be drawn to one feature or another. And as a lot of the people whom I know that show fall into that category of labeling based on coat or marking without any regard for the living creature beneath, it grates me. The fact that the idiology of this board is to not judge based on looks is what brings me back despite the often divergence of opinions on other things...which are by and larger fewer and fewer.

 

Maria

[Sue R]

Maria - I, for one, believe your heart is very much in the right place. I'm glad you keep coming back to the boards. Divergent opinions help us all to think about what we say and do, and what we believe in.

 

My little Bute is what many would consider an ugly dog - quite overshot, puny, scrawny, gawky, legs everywhere. He's definitely no beauty, but he's cute and owns a big chunk of my heart. And, when he is out in the pasture and determined to work those cows, well, I guess he's beautiful to me. Any dog we love is beautiful to us, isn't it?

 

Best wishes!

[border_collie_crazy]

just to answer the if working dogs were blocky and AKC dogs her racy, yes I would pick the racy dogs still. what I find pretty for ANY animal is this:

 

short coat

shiny coat

long, lean legs

lean build

lots and lots of muscle

racy looking head with a mild stop.

 

they dont matter to the breed, and I base my puppy choices on temperment and compatiability with me and whatever I want to do with the dog, but if you ask me to choose what I consider attractive, I would never point out a hairy, porky, blocky, heavy boned dog with a heavy stop(or no stop or roman nose) and say "that dog is gorgous", because I honastly dont find that look at all attractive.

 

of my 2 BCs, Happy is a racey, but rough coated and doesnt get muscular, show people find her very attractive(or as an actual AKC judge put it "this dogs coat and markings make her a standout" lol) . Misty however is smooth coated, fine boned, and ripped with muscle, show people find her ugly(everyone else on the planet figer she's the most gorgous dog they have ever seen lol). if I have to choose which I find more attractive, its Misty hands down, Happy is sweet, and I adore her but I do NOT find her very attractive, Misty however I live in aw of her beauty every day, to me she is the most stunning dog I have ever owned.

[Kyrasmom]

Divergent opinions help us all to think about what we say and do, and what we believe in.

 

 

Thank you Sue. You are so right. And in my zeal to make this yearly point I forgot to add that this board has changed my mindset about some things. I've been anti-AKC long before a border collie came into my life simiply because of the rescue/puppy mill aspect of breed registries. I know it's just a registry, as is the ABCA, and others, but I cringe when I see papered dogs being sold wholesale to a well-meaning but ignorant public. I despise that any registry automatically becomes a brand of approval or an unofficial guarantee even if the registry has little or no control over what unscrupulous breeders do.

 

But, until I came to this board, and made an offhand remark that my dog preferred tennis balls to sheep (boy did I get it bad that time) did I actually think about what conformation breeding does for the actual breeds. I was of course aware of the down fall of the German Shepherd, and had seen Samoyed shrinking and becoming more like American Eskimos, but I never actually thought about what it removed from the essence of the breed. Perhaps because I've never shown my dogs or had any inclination to join that world and as I've said before, did it dawn on me that something could be lost through this evolution.

 

I've always only worried about the responsibility for the life of the dog versus the work for which it was bred. Something I will probably always prioritise as I do care immensely for the hows and whys dogs are bred but I've come to understand that, with Border Collies, there's an additional aspect to look for when looking for a pup from a reputable breeder...not that I foresee that happening anytime soon given the 8 pooches that have invaded our lives and pretty much taken over.

 

So, it is thanks to this board that I have learned to take into account something that I never would have thought of before and I guess I hold everyone to a higher standard than those who discount a dog for an incomplete white collar or prick ears.

 

And Yes, of course, the dogs we love are always the most beautiful. I'm always drawn to rough coats regardless of breed and yet this is what I love and cuddle with every night. We almost lost her in Sept as she tangled with a rattlesnake and I prayed every day for her recovery as losing her was not an option. I was terrified. A small fortune and a few weeks later she came home to us and I'm eternally grateful. Her back legs are bowed, her front legs are crooked, she has a super smooth coat that leaves straight little hairs everywhere that POKE and she loves to give kisses...and uhm...I hate doggy kisses. I know some people love a dog that licks but it's not for me. But she's beautiful and perfect in every way and I (we) adore her.

 

 

So, forgive the soapbox, I guess the only reason I get on it is because I care about the mission and don't want anyone to miss out on it because they don't stick around long enough to buy a clue.

 

Maria

[Sue R]

Amen, Maria!

[Lunar]

Those poor shepherds. The BCs... ugh... just fluffy barbies.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Judge a dog based upon what it was bred for.

 

My dogs were bred for their ability to work livestock, so judge them on that. This is what I want my dogs judged on. It is their reasoning for their being. It is why they were bred. To be successful in any breeding goals I may have, my dogs need to be judged on their ability to be useful as working dogs.

 

The dog pictured was bred to be judged based on looks. This is what they want their dog judge on. It is the dogs reasoning for being in the show ring. In order for breeders of conformation dogs to be successful, they need their dogs to be judged bases solely on their good looks as conformation dogs.

 

This is the difference between our dogs and what we want our own dogs judged on.

 

I wouldn't want the pictured dog's owner or breeder to judge my dogs based on their looks because the success of any breedings I may have (and dogs) depends solely on their ability to work livestock, just as I am sure they wouldn't want me to judge their dog based on his ability to work livestock because the success of their breeding (and dogs) depends solely good looks in the conformation ring.

 

I did just what the owner wanted when buying a conformation dog and just what the breeder wanted when breeding a conformation dog, I judge it solely on its looks. If I was to pick a dog based on its looks, that head would be something I'd stay clear of and that is my right to say in judging this dog based on what it was bred for, even if what its judged on isn't something I breed or look for in a dog.

 

Now, I hope we can all see why the breeding behind the dog pictured isn't what we want for this breed and just how different the judging of the breed is so different in the two half's, making the two to very different breeds.

 

Katelynn

[Bill Fosher]

Every year this thread comes up and I wonder if I'm the only one on this board who has NOT watched Westminster.

 

Maria

 

I didn't. I think it's been five or six years since I watched any of it, and I don't think I've ever watched the Border collie judging.

 

Really, if you want to express disapproval of what's going on there, the best thing to do is to turn off the tube.

[Kyrasmom]

Katelynn,

 

You make some valid points but unfortunately miss others. Again, I did not come up with the philosophy that judging/breeding for looks is wrong. It's something I've learned here. If it's wrong, it's wrong period, it doesn't suddenly become right just because others are shallow and narrow minded. And your point of people breeding their dogs for looks and thus opening a door, are good ones, however you/the board lowers itself in doing so to the same level of those actually breeding/judging on looks alone.

 

If being petty and infantile is what you wish this board to be then so be it but it's not constructive and it would be a shame that the board ends up preaching to the choir instead of imparting truths in a constructive manner. What good can you really do for the Border Collie as you define it if you only pat each other on the back whilst emitting "ewws" and alienate the rest, and vaster portion most likely, of Border Collie owners.

 

There's nothing wrong with having a personal preference for one characteristic over another, that's normal. But then that characteristic should be one you find unappealing in any dog regardless of ability. If you don't like a block head...you don't like a block head period....doesn't mean you can't have one. Doesn't mean you can't love one or find one beautiful. I like rough coats and have more smooth coats than I have rough. Doesn't change that I'm attracted to rough coats. Doesn't change that I love my smooth coats and that they're beautiful.

 

 

Maria

[Eileen Stein]

Really, if you want to express disapproval of what's going on there, the best thing to do is to turn off the tube.

 

Well, unless you're a Nielson household, you don't express anything one way or the other by watching or not watching.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Really? As low as that?

 

>

 

But that isn't only what the board does, and the number of people it alienates (if any) by doing so is totally a matter of speculation.

 

>

 

True. If it's a good working dog, and you've got your head screwed on right, you'd want it anyway.

 

>

 

Very true.

 

>

 

Um . . . not true?

[Katelynn & Gang]

Again, I did not come up with the philosophy that judging/breeding for looks is wrong. It's something I've learned here. If it's wrong, it's wrong period, it doesn't suddenly become right just because others are shallow and narrow minded. And your point of people breeding their dogs for looks and thus opening a door, are good ones, however you/the board lowers itself in doing so to the same level of those actually breeding/judging on looks alone.

 

The "philosophy" that breeding and judging Border Collies based on looks is TOTALLY WRONG has been around from the time the breed was created. Its nothing new. Believe me, no one would knowingly accuse you of coming up with such a "philosophy" by yourself.

 

And correct me if I am wrong but by saying what I find unattractive in a dog that was bred to be attractive, I am not adding dogs to the gene pool that do not have the ability to work like a Border Collie or forever making the gene pool smaller for the sake of “attractive“ looks, increasing dangerous mutations.

 

 

What good can you really do for the Border Collie as you define it if you only pat each other on the back whilst emitting "ewws" and alienate the rest, and vaster portion most likely, of Border Collie owners.

 

The only patting on the back that I am doing is to Border Collies owners who do not register their dogs with the AKC, breeders who strictly breed their dogs for working ability and breeders who do not allow their puppies to go on and be registered with the AKC.

 

I'd say you are doing more alienating them me, with all of “us” patting each other on the back.

 

And by the way, the “vaster” portion of Border Collies owners own working bred dogs, as the working bred greatly outnumber conformation dogs, thankfully.

 

But then that characteristic should be one you find unappealing in any dog regardless of ability.

 

No, this is untrue. I find the Border Collie attractive because of its ability to work livestock from just correct breeding. They never stop to amaze me.

 

Take that ability away and you take away everything that I and millions of others find so attractive.

[Kyrasmom]

I'd say you are doing more alienating them me, with all of “us” patting each other on the back.

 

And by the way, the “vaster” portion of Border Collies owners own working bred dogs, as the working bred greatly outnumber conformation dogs, thankfully.

No, this is untrue. I find the Border Collie attractive because of its ability to work livestock from just correct breeding. They never stop to amaze me.

 

Take that ability away and you take away everything that I and millions of others find so attractive.

 

 

Who am I alienating? You? I'm assuming you're not really the target population who needs to learn something about the working bred Border Collie....you seem to have everything under control quite nicely. I don't much care if I alienate you or others who have the correct objective.

 

And you're correct, there are more working bred border collies than conformation bred, especially in the shelters. Heck, I'm sure even the sport bred Border Collie's outnumber the conformation ones. Doesn't change that their owners don't necessarily know what th dog is about.

 

I don't think everyone makes it here to be educated....and I know everyone doesn't stay. But that's ok I guess. It's truly not that important afer all.

 

Maria

[Kyrasmom]

<< And your point of people breeding their dogs for looks and thus opening a door, are good ones, however you/the board lowers itself in doing so to the same level of those actually breeding/judging on looks alone. >>

 

Really? As low as that?

 

Maybe a smidgen above.....maybe even more...and probably worthwhile as it certainly seems to be entertaining.

 

Maria

[Katelynn & Gang]

Who am I alienating? You? I'm assuming you're not really the target population who needs to learn something about the working bred Border Collie....you seem to have everything under control quite nicely. I don't much care if I alienate you or others who have the correct objective.

 

I’d say you are alienating the conformation people from "us” with statements like that. I have friends with conformation dogs and we have one that lives in our home and shares our food. No one seems to get offended like you do by any of this, most talk about it the same as we do, even though they love their dogs as much as I love mine. Does that make them one of “us” or one of “them?” I’m confused on who “us” is and who “them”? Could you please help me out?

 

I love how you find it okay to alienate people who know what they are talking about. If you do that, who is there to educated the uneducated? We may be blunt in our teaching methods but at least its getting done and we cannot be doing too horrible of a job because there are more people then not that are on this board that have learned from “us” “mean bully people who only alienate and nothing else,” such as yourself.

 

So keep not caring if you alienate the people who know and understand what is and isn’t with this breed and see how far it gets and how many people get educated. Nothing gets done in this world without stepping on toes and the toes of conformation people are toes I am willing to sacrifice for this breed.

 

And you're correct, there are more working bred border collies than conformation bred, especially in the shelters.

 

I believe if I hear this wasteful useless argument again, I may just barf.

 

If YOU sit down and find out how many ABCA dogs there are in comparison to AKC dogs, I am sure you will find there is little to NO difference in the numbers of dogs in shelters/rescue for the two.

 

Lets think of it this way, there are 100 ABCA dogs and 20 AKC dogs, for every ten of those dogs there is one dog in the shelter (10 ABCA dogs and 2 AKC dogs). The numbers still work out just the same!

 

I have a conformation bred dog that came from a shelter! And I see them pushed on rescues all the time or into PAWS or Leader Dogs but with the way you talk, this seems as though its impossible? What happened, did I miss something?

 

If you really want to go into depth about this subject, create a thread and we’ll talk. I think it will be VERY educating. Don’t just throw nasty little comments around without giving correct numbers for the people to study and look at, you need solid proof that your numbers work out. Let people who know their numbers and actually do just Border Collie rescue talk about what they see and hear.

 

And just for the record, its more so then not, AKC “haters” that do rescue. I’ve yet to meet one rescue person, even in their rescuing ALL “working bred dogs,” that would recommend or complement any conformation breeder/breeding. What is that telling you?

 

I don't think everyone makes it here to be educated....and I know everyone doesn't stay. But that's ok I guess. It's truly not that important af[t]er all.

 

I cannot believe you truly just wrote that.