Once again. so sad....

[sluj]

I managed to watch the first minute or so of several breeds, and finally have my answer for why most of the cattle dogs around here look like they could double for coffee tables. I just don't get the moldy sausage aesthetic.

 

Does it seem a bit hypocritical to anyone else, that they're showing a shelter ad? It's a good ad, but to me it seems like the Kennel Club institution is a major contributor to the shelter problem.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Pedigree is the major sponsor of the Westminister show, so the ad is a Pedigree ad. I love their current campaign, and I buy a few cans of their food (some of which isn't too bad) to use as mixers, about once a month or so. I wish they made a better kibble I could stomach buying!

[border_collie_crazy]

oh boy, I wish I had not just gone to watch the GSD breed video, the 2 dogs that won, the first one bunny hopped on the down and back, and the second one collapsed on the go around then when they were taking the pics, the BOS winner, he had such a hard time standing that they had to have him sit for the pics, the the AOM winner, that had to spray something on her feet to help her stand up.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I just never found the box head pretty when they gave it to the Aussie and when they gave it to the Border Collie I wanted to barf.

 

As for the tail up, I do Jrs. in 4H and you can bet all mine have their tails a flaging all over the place when they gait BECAUSE gaiting isn't working and it is not any way to Judge a Champion. hehe

 

Katelynn

[juliepoudrier]

Sally,

Phoebe has been the "rabid possum" for some time now--it just never got put in the sig line till the board migrated. The possum part comes from what she looks like most of the time, since she loves to dig in mudholes and so always looks, well, like a wet possum. The "rabid" has to do with her general snarkiness. Her alternative name is "pigpen." Both are apt (and so catchy).

 

As for the conformation part of the standard, it actually *seems* pretty acceptable, but the sad fact is that judges don't take the actual standard into consideration; if they did, you'd see much more variety in the breed ring. And the ears--well perhaps that's the sort of tipped look you get when you glue the ears of a pup instead of letting them do whatever they were meant to do as a result of the dog's genetics....

 

Katelynn,

Thanks for the explanation on the tails, although I have to say that my dogs tend to carry theirs down when trotting somewhere, unless they're challenging one another (as bitches will do) or playing, and then tails come up over the back. So are you saying that trotting around the show ring is akin to playing? Oh, and among Pip's nicknames are "Big Head Fred" and "Blockead." Perhaps I should start showing him? LOL!

 

J.

[sweet_ceana]

I am watching the video as we speak... I could not see the waist at all on one of them.... or maybe it is true what they say about the camera adding ten lbs lol...... I like my little dog from the farm much better.

[Anda]

I don't like the comments on how "ugly" these dog are. That is just not true. Let's all be honest now. They are all pretty. It's just that they are not necessarly representative for the breed and for its diversity.

 

And a lot of dogs do carry their tails up or even over their backs, especially when they're happy. They might view this show ring as something pleaseant.

 

It's true that most of their tails were waaay shorter than what I've seen in BC's. And their legs shorter. And they looked much heavier than regular BCs.

 

But they were all pretty, at the same time. So please don't call them ugly. I've seen ugly dogs, and these are not

[Katelynn & Gang]

Julie,

 

When mine are trotting and are working over a ball or heading to the field, their tails never come up. But for some odd reason those dang tails always pop up in Jrs. when your trying to win Best Jr. lmao Maybe its because I am such a kick butt handler that I can even make standing in a ring feel like puppy play, so I get gay tails? lmao Tell you the truth, I seriously believe its because they find the whole thing of trotting in a ring as a joke but still do it only because I ask, they just laugh the whole time with their tails up and are good sports around the whole silly ordeal.

 

Anda,

 

I've also seen my share of ugly dogs and in my book this dog with its non Border Collie shaped head would fall into that share. I see these conformation bred dogs on a weekly bases and I am always baffled as to how someone can find them the least bit attractive with their cold hard eyes over a working dog, even the ugliest working dog such as my Dice. If you asked me if the dog looked sound, I'd say yes (to a ring side standard anyway) which is the whole reason of the dog after all, correct? And not to just look pretty?

 

My dogs are called ugly all day long and none of them take offence to it. On the cometary, they LOVE it.

 

Sure glad I live in America where I can voice my thoughts just as theses breeders can breed their Champions.

 

Katelynn

 

My ugleist dog, Dice, with all her wisdom and correctness.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm confused. Why are we talking about whether these dogs are pretty enough? Isn't being obsessed over that, our beef with "them"?

 

My problem is the breeding goals they represent. I have a pup that's likely to be a heck of a looker but his breeders didn't have that in mind when they brought his parents together. Rather he represents an effort to produce sound, natural working ability, with both parents proven on stock in a variety of ways.

 

Border Collies are dogs who work livestock - that defines their essence. We can't take our eyes off defending that principle, or we get sucked into the battle over words and semantics.

 

Even the "standard" which the judges are supposed to refer to (but largely don't), pretends that keeping their working ability is foremost. Arguments justifying the completely arbitrary and aesthetic standards which define the show dog, are numerously circular, unfounded, and either deliberately self decieved or ignorant. Ideas such as the notion that a certain front is needed for "crouch" (oh how I hate that term), and "moderate" (which becomes heavy in the show ring as extremes prevail) bone is better than "light" bone for endurance work. I actually read that last one, postulated by a breed judge, who I'm fairly certain has never been involved in an actual operation where real endurance is required.

 

We can't let them define the breed. Pointing out that they've lost sight of what real Border Collies look like is one thing, but arguing over whether they are ugly or not is, in my opinion, getting us nowhere and making us ridiculously inconsistent.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Bebecca is right, the important thing to remember that is this dog stands for something that isn't correct when breeding Border Collies. It is upsetting enough to think this dog doesn't look like a Border Collie anymore but most importantly the fact that it doesn't work like a Border Collie anymore and even more so after that, this dog is what the World has seen as the prime example of the Border Collie breed.

 

Katelynn

[airbear]

I've noticed a similar trend when I go to the States for agility trials. There is a uniformity of look, though colour and markings may differ, that I find a little, well, Children of the Corn-ish. I though at first that maybe there were a few 'sport' kennels that were turning out these dogs in large numbers and that's why they all look the same, but upon asking about the breeding, they seem to be coming from lots of different 'breeders'. And all I kept thinking is "something about them gives me the creeps". It's not that they aren't pretty, or fast, or drivey, because they are all of these things. But at a visceral level, I actually felt a touch of revulsion.

 

It reminds me of a story from Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book, Blink, where, after testing an ancient statue using the latest in PCR and ultrasound and who knows what else, the Getty Museum pays a massive price for the artifact. Yet when they ask the experts in this field what they think of their latest acquisition, they all tell them it's a fake. They don't need tests, or mineral samples to know that their gut is telling them that the statue is not what it should be. It's not something that they can state using statistics or set criteria, as gut instinct does not lend itself easily to such analysis. In fact, Gladwell says that the more you try to put rigour around rating an experience, such as the taste of jam, the more confused you become.

 

Like a conformation standard on any dog, if you try to articulate in words the very essence of the dog breed in question, something seems to get lost in the standard. For example, what the heck is a 'stop', and why does it matter if it's 'moderate, but distinct'? Is this so that the nose doesn't pierce the brain? If so, I can see the value in this bit of the standard. But otherwise, the only interest I have in a stop is when my dog is bringing the sheep at a pace that, left unchecked, could result in me being flattened.

 

At agility trials here, the border collies look pretty much like the ones that you'll see at a stockdog trial, though with the recent move to accept the breed into the CKC (and the show ring), I wonder if I will be able to say that in 5 years.

 

Oh, and my favourite dog is that Dandie Dinmont that is co-owned by Bill Cosby. It's like a pipecleaner on wee little legs!

[Sue R]

Rebecca - You hit it on the head and expressed it quite well, as usual. Conformation "standards" are just so much hot air meant to justify breeding for appearance, and are ignored for the whims of what's in style in the show ring (which is another step down from practicality).

 

I like the expression, "Beauty is as beauty does". A show dog like the one above may be a pretty dog, but a Border Collie doing good work is beautiful.

 

Just my opinion.

[juliepoudrier]

...and "moderate" (which becomes heavy in the show ring as extremes prevail) bone is better than "light" bone for endurance work. I actually read that last one, postulated by a breed judge, who I'm fairly certain has never been involved in an actual operation where real endurance is required.

 

I find that postulation quite odd, too, as heavier certainly doesn't mean increased endurance. While you do see plenty of "moderate boned" working dogs, you also see a helluva lot of "light boned" dogs (all of my working dogs come to mind) and I've not seen any evidence of reduced endurance in those dogs. But like several of us have said, the standard pays lip service to "the work" but judging and show ring fads often have little to do with the written standard or the original (and sometimes current, as in the case of the border collie) purpose of a particular breed. Otherwise, why glue ears, or worry about stops, or eye color, or even coat, none of which have any bearing on *ability*?

 

J.

[laurie etc]

I find that postulation quite odd, too, as heavier certainly doesn't mean increased endurance. While you do see plenty of "moderate boned" working dogs, you also see a helluva lot of "light boned" dogs (all of my working dogs come to mind) and I've not seen any evidence of reduced endurance in those dogs. But like several of us have said, the standard pays lip service to "the work" but judging and show ring fads often have little to do with the written standard or the original (and sometimes current, as in the case of the border collie) purpose of a particular breed. Otherwise, why glue ears, or worry about stops, or eye color, or even coat, none of which have any bearing on *ability*?

 

J.

 

AWWWW- c'mon Julie, you're really missing out - I think "the Pipster" could take the breed ring by storm!! (At least with those legs, he could lap all those stubby-legged dogs trotting 'round the circle!) Laurie

[juliepoudrier]

AWWWW- c'mon Julie, you're really missing out - I think "the Pipster" could take the breed ring by storm!! (At least with those legs, he could lap all those stubby-legged dogs trotting 'round the circle!) Laurie

You offering to do the breed ring honors? Of course we would have to dye his Moby Dick body dark, glue his ears into some other position (rather than the "position of the day" he has now), *and* somehow add some coat to him. Then he'd be good to go, since he does fit the blocky (or is that blockhead?) bill pretty well! Oh, but if we're talking loooooong legs, then we really need Laura's Nick, since he outdoes Pip in that department (though Pip takes Nick on the bone aspect of things). Of course we'd have to perform the same cosmetic enhancements on Nick as on Pip, but maybe we could get some of the rough coats to contribute to the cause.... Oh, wait! Then we have to take Lark in too (let's see someone glue those ears!), just so she can run laps around the ring while all the others strut their stuff--just to prove that really-fine-boned dogs have plenty of endurance, even with the added hindrance of wind sail ears.

 

J.

[Kyrasmom]

I still can't figure out who so many of you have so much time on your hands to call out a dog. Because really, with a few exceptions, all you've really done is be critical of looks when you claim the border collie shouldn't be judged on looks alone...or bred.

 

Call out the practice of breeding these dogs, call out the people who need their self esteem boosted by rosettes and trophies, but really, how small is it to simply judge the dog on its looks when you're critical of the very people who breed them for their looks.

 

And if the only beautiful border collie is one who works...what is a working bred pup who is a dud and has no interest in herding anything...does he suddenly become ugly? And if a working dog with a boxy head and perfectly tipped ears worked well...would he all of a sudden be beautiful when those are the elements you took the time to judge?

 

Every year this thread comes up and I wonder if I'm the only one on this board who has NOT watched Westminster.

 

Maria

[laurie etc]

You offering to do the breed ring honors? J.

Hey - In my younger, stupider days I used to try to show field bred Golden Retrievers in conformation (not very successfully, I might add ). I can "build a dog" with the best of 'em. Scissors, dye, mousse, chalk, nose ink, glue, whatever it takes.... And after all, if you read the nebulous "standard", Pip fits it perfectly - for what it's worth - but then, apparently they pass out a different standard to the judges who actually pin the class. Laurie

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Maria

I didn't watch Westminster- but everyone who knows I am a dog person, asks if I did I used to watch it, many years ago, when I thought dog shows were what they aren't. I agree with what you are saying- if looks don't matter, why does it come up. I just don't like conformation competitions for ANY dogs, period. I suppose there is *some* need for some breeds to have something to start with when breeding, but my beef is when all the dog has to be is pretty- I find it belittling for good dogs.

Like judge Judy just said at an interview, when asked what she thought of Paris Hilton, Nickie whatsherface, and Anna Nicole- she said "you are in big trouble if you all you do is wave your behind around". Love that woman.

Julie

 

 

I still can't figure out who so many of you have so much time on your hands to call out a dog. Because really, with a few exceptions, all you've really done is be critical of looks when you claim the border collie shouldn't be judged on looks alone...or bred.

 

Call out the practice of breeding these dogs, call out the people who need their self esteem boosted by rosettes and trophies, but really, how small is it to simply judge the dog on its looks when you're critical of the very people who breed them for their looks.

 

And if the only beautiful border collie is one who works...what is a working bred pup who is a dud and has no interest in herding anything...does he suddenly become ugly? And if a working dog with a boxy head and perfectly tipped ears worked well...would he all of a sudden be beautiful when those are the elements you took the time to judge?

 

Every year this thread comes up and I wonder if I'm the only one on this board who has NOT watched Westminster.

 

Maria

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I didn't watch it - of course, I had much the same response, Maria, if you'll note my previous post.

 

The point about OUR dogs that would be laughed out the ring is that it's a ridiculous notion to cull top notch dogs on the basis of looks alone - or breed them to dogs that are of inferior working ability (or untested ability) - the single reason being completely unfounded ideas that "moderate bone equals endurance" or "correct fronts enable the dog to crouch better." Not to even mention irrelevancies like ear set, coat, and eye color.

 

ETA: I think the idea about "pretty is as pretty does", is not that dogs that aren't working can't be attractive. It's in opposition to the idea that the show dogs represent the epitome of beauty in a Border Collie. Those aren't the dogs worthiest of our admiration - it's the ones doing what the breed has always been bred to do best - work livestock. That doesn't stop us from oohing and ahhing over a cute pup or a dog making a nice agility run or even galloping with hair flying (or just being adorable like Ben with the lamb in my avatar). It's a matter of what defines the breed ultimately, however.

[MrSnappy]

On another board someone asked what the ridiculous poodle cut was for. A poodle person replied that it was an "exaggerated example of the clip worn by working poodles." I already knew this, of course, but was intrigued by the phrasing of the reply. The "exaggeration" of the poodle show clip is really a metaphor for the exaggeration of every 'standard' put out for conformation dogs and how breeders go to great lengths to magnify those standards for the ring. And in the magnification process, everything else about the dog is minimized. This very narrow criteria for judging a dog is pretty scary and sad.

 

RDM

[Rosanne]

I stopped watching Westminster long ago. The idea of ANY dogs being bred on looks (OK, and they have to not bite children) is sickening.

 

I too, have an ugly dog. Everybody says his head is too small and he looks like a girl

But I think he's lovely! No way would I want a foo-foo coat to groom. I always said if I get a dog that has too much coat it will SHAVED (to its own embarassment, I'm sure).

 

By the way, both of my smooth coats have tails that barely reach their hocks. My roughs have both had tails that were close to the ground. I can't explain the short breed tails; I just assumed mine were linked with the smooth coat gene - I read somewhere that it was also more common for them to have slightly shorter backs/longer legs.

 

But. . . everybody's right. It's not the dogs' faults. Sooo. . . . was the breeder puffy and short-legged? Did somebody glue her ears shut? Does she get icky things stuck in her long hair and have to be bathed constantly?

(or will I get sued for asking that?!)

 

My ugly dog, with his 'little head' that hears and thinks just fine, and his little bone that has yet to cause him a problem:

(don't worry, I know he's beautiful!)

[Kyrasmom]

I didn't watch it - of course, I had much the same response, Maria, if you'll note my previous post.

 

The point about OUR dogs that would be laughed out the ring is that it's a ridiculous notion to cull top notch dogs on the basis of looks alone - or breed them to dogs that are of inferior working ability (or untested ability) - the single reason being completely unfounded ideas that "moderate bone equals endurance" or "correct fronts enable the dog to crouch better." Not to even mention irrelevancies like ear set, coat, and eye color.

 

ETA: I think the idea about "pretty is as pretty does", is not that dogs that aren't working can't be attractive. It's in opposition to the idea that the show dogs represent the epitome of beauty in a Border Collie. Those aren't the dogs worthiest of our admiration - it's the ones doing what the breed has always been bred to do best - work livestock. That doesn't stop us from oohing and ahhing over a cute pup or a dog making a nice agility run or even galloping with hair flying (or just being adorable like Ben with the lamb in my avatar). It's a matter of what defines the breed ultimately, however.

 

And I agree with everything you've said Rebecca, hence that I included "exceptions" in my previous posts as I had seen your previous post. If what defines the border collie is what it does then by all means call out the people/bash Westminster/the judges/the criteria/the breeders/the entire concept of ruining dogs physically and mentally for the sake of a trophy but calling out the dog seems senseless and in very poor taste when the arguement is that "looks don't matter" - action does. It's not the dogs fault. For example, I think breeders gluing their dogs ears to achieve tipped ears are assanine can be an opinion about a practice. Being critical of tipped ears is odd when working border collies CAN have tipped ears....from photos I've seen on the site there are some gorgeous fluffy dogs with tipped ears working their arses off.

 

If someone doesn't like a boxy head and yet there were a boxy headed dog who could work, then the argument would be that the beauty is in the work...even if the boxy head were unattractive. But nobody would say it I bet. If someoene finds a boxy head unattractive, be critical of those breeding for it, why bother picking apart the dog who is blameless.

 

Honestly, if the average lurker reads this thread, it comes off as petty and akin to jealousy. And given the importance of what as a collective whole you are attempting to achieve is neither petty nor unimportant...why stray down that road over and over? Obviously because there is an entertainment factor in it all. I'm just as guilty as I keep saying the same thing over and over.

 

The yearly westminster thread could be very educational if instead of pointing fingers and emitting "ewws" and other colorful discriptives it were explained how sad it is that breeders are losing what epitomises the Border Collie ... not to mention many other breeds. Then perhaps the lurker would learn something instead of going away convinced that everyone is jealous of his beautiful dog because they are stuck with prick eared smooth coated mutts.

 

Maria

[Kyrasmom]

I . . was the breeder puffy and short-legged? Did somebody glue her ears shut? Does she get icky things stuck in her long hair and have to be bathed constantly?

(or will I get sued for asking that?!)

 

 

Actually, a "did you see how that handler was dressed" thread would be quite amusing. Skimming through channels I occasionally see someone huffing and puffing as they attempt to trot their dog in a long skirt. Never fails to amuse me actually.

 

And yes, I know that is not necessarily nice, but if some long skirted handler wishes to defend her actions, she's welcome to do it.

[Maralynn]

If someone doesn't like a boxy head and yet there were a boxy headed dog who could work, then the argument would be that the beauty is in the work...even if the boxy head were unattractive. But nobody would say it I bet. If someoene finds a boxy head unattractive, be critical of those breeding for it, why bother picking apart the dog who is blameless.

 

 

That's what I was thinking, too, about the boxy head comments. That look may not be someone's cup of tea, but if the dog can work, who cares about the boxy head? Why exclude a dog from your working bloodlines based just on looks? I like medium/rough coated dogs in the 35-45# range, but I got a 30#smooth coat because he could work. And his looks have grown on me

 

I don't watch Westminster either, but it grates on me to see folks turning a useful working breed into a breed bred for looks based on their whims. And it's the same for any working breed I see being shown.

[PSmitty]

By the way, both of my smooth coats have tails that barely reach their hocks. My roughs have both had tails that were close to the ground. I can't explain the short breed tails; I just assumed mine were linked with the smooth coat gene - I read somewhere that it was also more common for them to have slightly shorter backs/longer legs.

 

Hmmm. Interesting. My smooth puppy has a short tail, too, barely reaching his hocks.

 

I'm loving these "ugly" dogs, btw. I'd love to see more of Dice, Katelynn. I think my pup's coat may end up similiar to her's.