Need advice, Luna 10-week-old Border

[Valesnc]

    This is Luna, a 10-week-old Border Collie puppy that was water and food deprived (it is all we can think of that happened, we were not there, she is obsessed with water and tries to hide her food by the mouth full, all over the room) also she was locked in a crate (We assume we picked her up with yellow feet and just dirty) so now she hates what should be her hidey place. Anyone have any suggestions? I have a playpen currently around the crate, not forcing her, she most of the time is fine, then she is not. She digs crazy inside the crate and then comes out to the edges and chews on the gate. =( She also is excessively biting, we are giving positive reinforcement, with distraction when we can, we have started a regular routine for her by that I mean short training followed by play sessions, but it is hard as she is fighting a UTI as well. I am hoping once that is over, she will calm down a bit also. I am just looking for honest guidance out there we have had many Borders, I just can't say I have seen one this young act out. She will work through it, I am sure; I just do not wish to make any mistakes helping her through it. I need her safe, yet it hurts my heart to watch her get so upset about being in a crate or any place locked up. We would love for her to be a loving working part of our family; my husband has PTSD from TBI, and we lost his Border of 9 years to a brain tumor. 

[Journey]

Hang in there..you're on the right track to begin with! I'll write more when I have more time

[gcv-border]

Based on your assumptions on her previous (very short) life, it is possible that Lina may also have PTSD. Hopefully, she will improve.

How long have you had her?

Does she have rugged chew toys for her bitey phases? If she wants to bite and chew, I would be giving her a chew toy. It is hard to know if her biting is somewhat normal puppy biting, combined with tiredness, or it it is unusual. All of my pups have gone through a biting stage.

And depending on what temperaments her parents had (what lines she comes from), she may be genetically prone to more excitable behaviors.

[gcv-border]

Sorry, dang autocorrect changed Luna to Lina in my post above.

[alligande]

First she is adorable. Don’t worry to much about the crate, it will come. My current puppy (just turned 7 months) hated the crate when I bought him home at 9 weeks. Full melt down. He came from a farm and his puppy kennel, it was more like a puppy room, shared with his litter mates was large and open at the top so had never been enclosed. 
I got him a play pen and that was his space, he had a crate in the car initially complaining bitterly but he accepted that and transitioned to a bigger one in the back easily when the time came. Just before Christmas we transitioned him from the play pen to a large crate as he wasn’t safe in there any more and he wasn’t bothered by the transition. We have played some crate games, I had them outside and if he didn’t get his meals in training, he ate in the crate. 
He was also water obsessed and still occasionally plays with it, but has grown out of it and his water intact became normal, he was never deprived just went through a puppy phase.

[Valesnc]

7 hours ago, gcv-border said:

Based on your assumptions on her previous (very short) life, it is possible that Lina may also have PTSD. Hopefully, she will improve.

How long have you had her?

Does she have rugged chew toys for her bitey phases? If she wants to bite and chew, I would be giving her a chew toy. It is hard to know if her biting is somewhat normal puppy biting, combined with tiredness, or it it is unusual. All of my pups have gone through a biting stage.

And depending on what temperaments her parents had (what lines she comes from), she may be genetically prone to more excitable behaviors.

 

8 hours ago, Journey said:

Hang in there..you're on the right track to begin with! I'll write more when I have more time

Thank you, appreciate any help

 

[Valesnc]

7 hours ago, gcv-border said:

Based on your assumptions on her previous (very short) life, it is possible that Lina may also have PTSD. Hopefully, she will improve.

How long have you had her?

Does she have rugged chew toys for her bitey phases? If she wants to bite and chew, I would be giving her a chew toy. It is hard to know if her biting is somewhat normal puppy biting, combined with tiredness, or it it is unusual. All of my pups have gone through a biting stage.

And depending on what temperaments her parents had (what lines she comes from), she may be genetically prone to more excitable behaviors.

Thanks =) she just has us scratching our heads we picked her up the 6th of January like I said very dirty and complete with the UTI. We are hoping it is the meds making her a bit more aggressive. She seems fine sometimes them poof her brain just disconnects, and she starts snapping and biting.  Tonight, is a great example we were doing our training session and she loves them because they mean Yum, Yums, she was getting the ball bringing it back to my hand and getting a treat. I do like 5 min that's it, we just got started and she just leapt up and bit my arm (unbelievably bad), then I said sit after her snappy and she did. so geeez her brain is like what.  The Breeder kept telling me she came from a sweet dame and Sire, strong herding stock. I do not see the herding except the nipping in excess, but the snarl snap and biting is my concern. She might be getting too much up and about time, but I have always had my pups up and with me, so it would be hard for me to keep in a pen for lengths at a time. Thanks =) again and any thoughts are good ones because we sure would like to help her along, she is a cutie and I really do hope that someday she becomes an amazing service dog for her daddy. 

[gcv-border]

Train the dog (or pup) you have in front of you and don’t compare to other dogs. In other words, just because other pups may be able to train for 5 minutes, maybe it is too much for Luna - at this time. Experiment and try to train for 2 minutes ONLY and see how she responds. Hopefully, her brain won’t explode. At this young age, you won’t see herding behavior. The nipping is just rude puppy behavior.

[Valesnc]

8 minutes ago, gcv-border said:

Train the dog (or pup) you have in front of you and don’t compare to other dogs. In other words, just because other pups may be able to train for 5 minutes, maybe it is too much for Luna - at this time. Experiment and try to train for 2 minutes ONLY and see how she responds. Hopefully, her brain won’t explode. At this young age, you won’t see herding behavior. The nipping is just rude puppy behavior.

Thank you, and yes, I hope that's all it is. I think rude I can handle, aggressive and rude ugh.. I was hoping for a sweet baby girl , but we got more teeth than are in her mouth haha.

[alligande]

10 hours ago, gcv-border said:

Train the dog (or pup) you have in front of you and don’t compare to other dogs. In other words, just because other pups may be able to train for 5 minutes, maybe it is too much for Luna - at this time. Experiment and try to train for 2 minutes ONLY and see how she responds. Hopefully, her brain won’t explode. At this young age, you won’t see herding behavior. The nipping is just rude puppy behavior.

Totally agree with this, my current pup is a hard working young man, but you can tell when he has crossed a threshold as he bites, when he was younger on a walks he would rush back and bite my legs, now if he is over excited he grabs my arm. It’s the only time the teeth come out, and it’s clear he needs a time out either in his crate or back on a leash. 

[Valesnc]

4 hours ago, alligande said:

Totally agree with this, my current pup is a hard working young man, but you can tell when he has crossed a threshold as he bites, when he was younger on a walks he would rush back and bite my legs, now if he is over excited he grabs my arm. It’s the only time the teeth come out, and it’s clear he needs a time out either in his crate or back on a leash. 

Thank you, yes, we have now started backing off on time to see if it helps. She loves to learn and play of course; she gets very over stimulated extremely fast and she happens to express that with some shark teeth. This is just my first shark and I have had the pleasure of raising and loving 5 herding dogs over the last 45 years and have just never run into one with this much young aggression ie bite and snappy attitude. She did have a rough start and I know between the UTI/Medication and teething she will get through it, and I am hoping to be back to normal Border nipping, lol never thought I would say that, but I sure would welcome it. I am hoping when she gets crazy putting her in her playpen is the answer because we have never really had to use them in the past. Thank you for the input and help.

[beachdogz]

You've gotten some excellent advice here, and there's not much I can add.  I honestly don't see any big red flags here.  I agree a lot of it is just rude puppy behavior. Do you have any knowledge of how she was raised?  For instance, if the litter was just left on its own with not a lot of human contact from the breeder, then you are dealing with a puppy that had to cope with litter mates and maybe having to fight for its needs and did not learn early lessons of human touch and handling. 

Not sure what you mean about water obsession (wants to gulp it all down?  wants to play in it?)  As far as hiding food, that sounds more like a genetic/instinctive throw-back trait. In my experience, dogs that are deprived food usually gulp it down as fast as possible or guard it.  I had a dog that constantly took biscuits and hid them everywhere.  Not unusual for us to get in bed and find dog bones under our pillows or under the blankets at the bottom of the bed. (God I miss that dog!)  My son has a dog that looks similar to that dog and does the exact same thing! 

You do seem to have a handle on this and just be patient with her -- she is still adjusting.  She is absolutely beautiful (I'm a sucker for a split face) and I'm sure with all your experience you'll be over the bumps in no time!  Or she can always come live with me.....hee hee hee

[Valesnc]

2 hours ago, beachdogz said:

You've gotten some excellent advice here, and there's not much I can add.  I honestly don't see any big red flags here.  I agree a lot of it is just rude puppy behavior. Do you have any knowledge of how she was raised?  For instance, if the litter was just left on its own with not a lot of human contact from the breeder, then you are dealing with a puppy that had to cope with litter mates and maybe having to fight for its needs and did not learn early lessons of human touch and handling. 

Not sure what you mean about water obsession (wants to gulp it all down?  wants to play in it?)  As far as hiding food, that sounds more like a genetic/instinctive throw-back trait. In my experience, dogs that are deprived food usually gulp it down as fast as possible or guard it.  I had a dog that constantly took biscuits and hid them everywhere.  Not unusual for us to get in bed and find dog bones under our pillows or under the blankets at the bottom of the bed. (God I miss that dog!)  My son has a dog that looks similar to that dog and does the exact same thing! 

You do seem to have a handle on this and just be patient with her -- she is still adjusting.  She is absolutely beautiful (I'm a sucker for a split face) and I'm sure with all your experience you'll be over the bumps in no time!  Or she can always come live with me.....hee hee hee

Yes, all I know is the young man took her as soon as the breeder would let her leave. He had her 10 days and then put her on craigs list for sale. I found out who the breeder was and let her know what was happening. It was just a weird case, and we were happy to be there for her. I have no idea about her at all, just the condition we got her in. Like I have said, she was very dirty, a UTI and the food thing was sure gobbled up but lots of puppies do that, I have just not seen too many 10-week-old ones hide it everywhere. The water she was just over drinking, like she couldn't get enough to drink, then after a few days of having access to bowls everywhere she calmed down with that behavior.  She is doing amazing, I just wanted to be certain I was doing ok by using the playpen for when she was in her shark attack mode. like I had said there is puppy biting and nipping then there is insanity.  It has helped her to focus on one bite toy, and if she does not focus on that she has to take a time out. then she can come back out. She has really done much better; I think in a few weeks we will see good improvement and thank you to everyone for listening to my panic. There are those moments in life when you get a bit older, and you think about what I have done haha.

[beachdogz]

ohhh...I'm sorry.  I was thinking that you got her from a breeder.  Didn't know you got her from a person who had gotten her from the breeder. Yeah, sounds like he was crating her and limiting water to prevent accidents and lord knows what else he was doing (or not doing!)  She's a lucky little girl to have found you!   The ex pen around the crate is a good idea.  I would have done the same thing. 

16 hours ago, Valesnc said:

There are those moments in life when you get a bit older, and you think about what I have done haha.

LOL Preaching to the choir here.  Older (quite older) and got two puppies at the same time.  I had obviously forgotten how much work they were.  But all turned out well.  I'm sure it will be the same for you.  

[D'Elle]

Your puppy is adorable. I agree with the advice you have received, and have little to add except to remind you that she is still very new in your home and has not adjusted yet. If she were kept by another individual who did not treat her right, it may take her some time to learn to trust you, and as has been suggested, she may have PTSD. Extreme patience, love, and loads of positive reinforcement will be needed.

Focus attention on learning who this little girl is and what she needs to feel comfortable and safe. This will help you to make the training sessions a length of time she likes. That biting may have been her way to say "I don't like this any more right now". I always pay a lot of attention to what the dog, of any age, is telling me with their body language and eyes and I do my best to respond appropriately in a way that makes the dog learn to trust me.  Everything starts with your relationship with the dog, and it remains the foundation of everything you do with the dog or train the dog to do for the rest of her life, so building a good one right at the start goes a long way.

[Valesnc]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:32 PM, D'Elle said:

Your puppy is adorable. I agree with the advice you have received, and have little to add except to remind you that she is still very new in your home and has not adjusted yet. If she were kept by another individual who did not treat her right, it may take her some time to learn to trust you, and as has been suggested, she may have PTSD. Extreme patience, love, and loads of positive reinforcement will be needed.

Focus attention on learning who this little girl is and what she needs to feel comfortable and safe. This will help you to make the training sessions a length of time she likes. That biting may have been her way to say "I don't like this any more right now". I always pay a lot of attention to what the dog, of any age, is telling me with their body language and eyes and I do my best to respond appropriately in a way that makes the dog learn to trust me.  Everything starts with your relationship with the dog, and it remains the foundation of everything you do with the dog or train the dog to do for the rest of her life, so building a good one right at the start goes a long way.

Thank you so much for the advice, it is very much appreciated, I just felt lost to have this tiny creature be so snappy and look like she was just lost as well. I have seen it from the older dogs we have rescued but it is different somehow. She is doing better, after being here now since the 6th I can see the changes slowly taking effect in her brain, the thoughts as she now pauses before leaping to bite haha, she will stop and sit instead, but do not miss that queue lol. I love the eyes of a baby that is thinking, so you are so right, thanks for reminding me to always watch how wonderful that process is. 

[gcv-border]

37 minutes ago, Valesnc said:

......she will stop and sit instead......

This short phrase reminded me of something that a lot of dog owners do NOT do: reward calm.

Most of us treat/reward very well when we are training the dog. When we ask the dog to do something, and it complies. Yes! Treat.

But it is also important, IMHO, to reward a calm dog. If your dog is just sitting or lying around, make an effort to walk by the dog and treat for calmness. Just because you haven't asked for a behavior, doesn't mean that you can not treat the behavior the dog is showing you. Each time you treat for calm behavior, you will build the connection in the dog's mind that calmness is something good.

[urge to herd]

A long shot, but your dog may be inherently anxious. If that's the case, slowing down & backing off can help enormously.  For example, when you praise/reward, do so calmly and briefly. Do one minute of training and stop.  If your pup does get anxious for any reason, calmly & briefly soothe her. If that doesn't help, put some space between you and ignore her for a while.  Remain calm, as well. I know it can be difficult but makes a difference.

I had a bc years ago, Shoshone. She had been badly abused/neglected and had been in a good foster home for a while before we got her. Her anxiety was intense, she was afraid of everything. She'd leave the room when we had friends over, hated getting into the car, etc.

Got my vet to prescribe prozac for her, which did nothing. Asked the vet if there was any other medication that might work. He prescribed clomiprimine. A few weeks after starting clomiprimine a dog-loving friend of mine dropped by. Friend got down on the floor to say hi to Shoshone. I went into the kitchen to get something or other. When I got back to the living room, Shoshone was on my friend's lap, soaking up some love. 

Your girl may not respond to medication, but if she were mine I'd give it a try. I think the medication was inexpensive, but this was at least 15 yrs ago. In any case, please let us know how it goes for you and Luna.

Ruth

[Journey]

You've been given lots of good advice. 

Honestly, I haven't known a pup that wasn't a water getter! They play, watch it move, splash it, etc..it's a phase of some sort but one that I won't encourage nor discourage. Just let it be. As for hiding her food, if that's what she likes so be it. I only allow the food to be down for a certain amount of time, then it's mine again. With puppies I will be a bit more lenient, though they do not have access to is 7/24. Only when I put it down for them.

 

Play vs biting. In training, you want her using her mind, not her body. I am one that hates balls, a mindless game that turns into a viscous cycle. Teach her mental games. Wait, stay, find it, etc..also, teach her to allow a cookie on each paw, while laying down, and to give you eye contact. Make her think. Don't over do this but activate the brain not just reactions. Teach her a "touch" command, then it can be transferred to anything at all you want her to touch. Teach her to back up, physically walk backwards, off your pressure of walking in towards her, teach her to side pass. Teach her games that she has to think! It sounds to me like your game with the ball is over the top for her. Back up, way back. Teach her to find it it instead. A 10 week old biting, is normal imo. It will only get worse though as teething is about to begin. Be sure to have good chews for her (aside from you!). 

 

You are doing well with the play pen, however, when you crate her is it in a different room? Covered? Quiet? Where is her playpen? If you are using this to get her to settle be sure the environment is conducive to it. Even if she is only good for 30 seconds, reward that! Slowly build up.  Personally, I would never even contemplate medicating a pup this young. Take your time, allow her to decompress, and learn each other. Learn what works, what doesn't. At her age she's been through enough. I wouldn't ask for too much all at once. When she wants to run and play, let her, I wouldn't make that part of my training though! Groom her, trim her toes, all of this will allow her and you to figure each other out, figure out what makes her tick! What does she like and dislike? And lastly..how many time a day are you feeding her? What type of food?

 

 

 

[D'Elle]

Just a couple of comments on above posts: Definitely reward her for just being calm and quiet and relaxed! This is so easy to forget and yet is so important. 

And, I agree completely with teaching her things, once she starts to settle down enough. But I would advise against training her to back up, and especially training her to back up by walking in toward her. For a dog who is uncertain and still needing to learn trust, this will only serve to make her more likely to want to avoid you, as this can seem threatening to even an adult dog who is confident. Wait on this u ntil she is older and far more settled. Also, side passes are pretty difficult to train and should wait until much later to attempt. Train  her only in the most basic and simple things....things she can get right very easily, and then praise her to the skies each time she even attempts it. Touch cue is great for this, as most dogs get it rapidly. You can get her to touch anything you want and it gives her lots of opportunity to be rewarded. 

[Journey]

5 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

Just a couple of comments on above posts: Definitely reward her for just being calm and quiet and relaxed! This is so easy to forget and yet is so important. 

And, I agree completely with teaching her things, once she starts to settle down enough. But I would advise against training her to back up, and especially training her to back up by walking in toward her. For a dog who is uncertain and still needing to learn trust, this will only serve to make her more likely to want to avoid you, as this can seem threatening to even an adult dog who is confident. Wait on this u ntil she is older and far more settled. Also, side passes are pretty difficult to train and should wait until much later to attempt. Train  her only in the most basic and simple things....things she can get right very easily, and then praise her to the skies each time she even attempts it. Touch cue is great for this, as most dogs get it rapidly. You can get her to touch anything you want and it gives her lots of opportunity to be rewarded. 

What?? Threatening? Difficult? Wait till they are older? Puppies are sponges. On your knees, lean into pup, it moved backwards, reward..if that is threatening to a pup there are far greater problems in said pup. Body awareness, make them use their minds. This is not difficult, nor threatening. It actually teaches them to be aware of their body..that's not threatening. As for side passing being difficult, um, they do this freewheeling in the yard no problem, why would teaching it be detrimental. If you do not challenge them, mentally, they will come up with their own games, games that are not generally good. No puppy should "wait till they are older and more settled" to learn. Learning starts immediately. IMO, with a pup you go farther faster than with an older dog who never learned how to learn.

If this OP pup is not settled, doing "nothing" isn't going to make it better. Engage the mind and the body. 

[Journey]

Teach her individual foot awareness. Teach her to place her feet in a or on a bucket, then to walk around said bucket with feet in or on it, both directions. Teach her to walk up a wall with her back feet, lots of pieces to get there..teach her to lay down, grab a corner of a blanket, roll herself up in said blanket! Lots of pieces here that will need to be chained together! Teach her to fit both left feet at the same time and or both right. Again, lots to chain together to get the end results. About the only thing you can't teach her is what you can't imagine or figure out how to convey to her to learn what you want. Teach her to climb into a box, then make the box progressively smaller! Teaching clam is wonderful but it can't be expected 7/24. Teach her to use her mind and her body.  Of course, this all takes time, small steps at a time, you will go fast forward and then backwards, it's all part of learning!

[urge to herd]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:46 AM, Journey said:

  *Personally, I would never even contemplate medicating a pup this young. Take your time, allow her to decompress, and learn each other. Learn what works, what doesn't. *

Journey, thank you, I should have made that clear in my post about Shoshone. Shonie was an adult dog AND she was part of the family for at least a couple years before I thought about meds.

Ruth

 

 

 

 

[D'Elle]

23 hours ago, Journey said:

What?? Threatening? Difficult? Wait till they are older? Puppies are sponges. On your knees, lean into pup, it moved backwards, reward..if that is threatening to a pup there are far greater problems in said pup. Body awareness, make them use their minds. This is not difficult, nor threatening. It actually teaches them to be aware of their body..that's not threatening. As for side passing being difficult, um, they do this freewheeling in the yard no problem, why would teaching it be detrimental. If you do not challenge them, mentally, they will come up with their own games, games that are not generally good. No puppy should "wait till they are older and more settled" to learn. Learning starts immediately. IMO, with a pup you go farther faster than with an older dog who never learned how to learn.

If this OP pup is not settled, doing "nothing" isn't going to make it better. Engage the mind and the body. 

I most certainly wouldn't, and didn't,  advocate doing "nothing"!

I was only suggesting to wait until older because this puppy was obviously unsettled and sounded anxious.  With a dog like that I would start out with really easy things so that the dog could have a sense of accomplishment that you could build on. And in any case, I always start out with very easy things so the dog gets the idea of learning different movements for rewards. A confident puppy can start to learn almost any move at a young age, but I would still start out with really easy ones. 

I said nothing about anything being "detrimental".

I was basing my comments on what I have seen many times with people training their dogs for musical canine freestyle, which I have trained and taught in classes and performed for over 15 years. Some dogs are threatened when a person moves toward them into their space like that, especially dogs that are unsettled and/or anxious. I was speaking as a caution. I have seen this phenomenon many times and have worked with it myself.

I didn't say that training the back  up was difficult, it's not,  but was referring to side passes.  While dogs will do this move in play, and it is not at all difficult for a dog to do this move, it is a whole different matter to train it. It is not easy to train them to do it on cue and by your side or in front of you and going in the direction you want them to go. That is what is meant by " training a side pass".

Again, I am basing what I say on what I have experienced and observed, side passes is one of the more difficult moves to train a dog to do. ( I have trained some dogs to do this myself and have participated in helping other owners to train their dogs and have seen other members of my group train it for the past 15 years.)  If you have trained several dogs to do side passes on cue and it has been easy every time, you are a better trainer than I am and I'd like to know your technique! 

What I train and how and when always depends on the individual dog, that dog's temperament, level of comfort and confidence and other factors. It's important to take everything carefully into consideration and start out with training the things that will best suit the dog as they are right now.

 

[beachdogz]

duh.  Am I the only person who doesn't know this?  What's a "side pass"???