How we use our dogs

[Nuance]

There is a lady in my neighborhood whos first dog (ever)is a BC who is 5.(she has done an amazing job raising her dog and should be super proud)  If you compare my dog to hers, hers is more trained out than mine. Her dog has a plethora of tricks, weaving,  flips, dancing etc. my own dog doesn't know a single trick (not even shake a paw). 

It got me to thinking about what we teach our dogs and why we teach them what we do.

So her dog is trained more than mine ,yet mine is the more capable dog.

My dog has broader abilities, life skills. Her dog has tricks(and that's awesome!)

So my question is....Does what you use your dog for impact its broader learning abilities? Do we focus our dogs attention, limiting their over all abilities?

[Mark Billadeau]

In an hour or so one of our dogs will move our small flock of sheep (~180) from their secured field to another to graze for the day.

[D'Elle]

I never think of using a dog any more than using a friend. If I had sheep, of course the dog would be trained on the sheep, but I would be doing it with the dog as a team and we would be working as equals as much as I could manage that. And of course the dog would love it so it would be for the dog as well as for me.

I don't think as much about what I want to do; I think more about what the dog wants to do. A very active dog who is very smart and doesn't have sheep needs to do something. So I try a variety of things. Some of these things are a lot of fun for me, but I am doing them for the dog more than for me. If the dog doesn't really want to dance, for instance, I don't ask the dog to dance. If the dog gets too old to enjoy dancing I might switch to scent work which is not nearly as much fun for me but makes the dog happy. For me it's all about the dog.

My experience is that, even with dogs who are not as capable as border collies, the more I teach the dog to do, the more the dog learns to think well for him or herself. If I have a dog who is well trained in a few things, I notice that dog is a lot more likely to have good life skills in general than a dog who isn't or has not yet been trained. I have seen this with numerous foster dogs and other people's dogs I have helped to train. So it is possible, Nuance, that your friend's dog has more life skills than you think. (Not that I know, since I don't know the dog).

I just  try things until I find an activity the dog loves and then we do that. 

[urge to herd]

I know that Canine Companions for Independence* trains their pups and young dogs in a plethora of tasks/commands. I dare say that the ones that make the cut and go on to aid persons with disabilities in daily tasks have just a ton of life skills that most people never think about teaching their dogs. It's necessary for the CCI dogs, not necessary for a pet, unless the owner wants to train those skills.

Dogs seem to be a most malleable species. Once you start training dogs who are bred to work it seems that many of the dogs just soak it in. Not all, and those that don't make it to graduation are placed in good pet homes.

*I live in the same county that CCI is based in, and am about 50 miles away from a Guide Dogs for the Blind campus. 

Ruth & Gibbs

P.S. Also what D'Elle said ~ "the more I teach the dog to do, the more the dog learns to think well for him or herself. If I have a dog who is well trained in a few things, I notice that dog is a lot more likely to have good life skills in general than a dog who isn't or has not yet been trained. I have seen this with numerous foster dogs ".

 

[beachdogz]

My dogs each go to a separate agility class every week.  Been doing that since they were pups.  They each completed a 6 or 8 week obedience class (can't remember which) when they were puppies.  They have done scent class (which I did not particularly care for) and they participated in a "search and rescue-type" class given by a retired police dog handler, and continue to be trained in that - because they absolutely love it.  THIS, is my therapy.  I do not participate in dog sport events.  I did that for years, but I find that I simply love working with my dogs and so that is what I do.  Yes, being Border Collies, it gives them an outlet, and a job, but to be totally honest, I do it for me! 

I believe that no matter what you do, each and every little activity you do with your dog (whether it is teaching him tricks at home, taking him for a walk,  or participating in dog sports activities) makes him smarter, more well-rounded, more controllable, and a better companion (as long as you are doing it right.)  It exercises the brain (for both of you) and strengthens the bond between you. 

I would love to know what life skills and broader abilities the OP's dog has that he thinks the trick dog doesn't have.  Not being argumentative here, just curious.

 

[Nuance]

Beachdogz,

 The dog i mentioned is an awesome dog(I admire their work and effort)There is no doubt in my mind her second BC will be equally capable as any i have ever raised.

Life skills, my dog can be placed into any situation and think for herself. I don't have to worry about cars,cats,squirrels or any distraction. My dog is not sensitive to sounds and doesn't re act to any noises. My dog has verbal and visual cues(hand signals which allows her to be father away from me and still take directions.) My dog will  not approach people out and about, she will ignore other dogs(that are on leash) because she knows a leash means they are working. She has manners on a sidewalk(ish) and if i tell her "my side" she will walk directly in front of me , so we don't hoard the sidewalk or paths. She is also off leash entirely My dogs can express her emotions...If she wants to greet another dog  she will sit and wait for them, and if they pass by without a greeting her she understands not all people or dogs like her. In a general way my dogs first two years are spent making her comfortable with the world around her and to problem solve for herself.

Being off leash my dog can literally re act or do whatever she wants( i mean its possible)But her life skills prevent her from re acting

 

 

 

 

[D'Elle]

18 hours ago, beachdogz said:

I believe that no matter what you do, each and every little activity you do with your dog (whether it is teaching him tricks at home, taking him for a walk,  or participating in dog sports activities) makes him smarter, more well-rounded, more controllable, and a better companion (as long as you are doing it right.)  It exercises the brain (for both of you) and strengthens the bond between you. 

Well said.

18 hours ago, Nuance said:

Life skills, my dog can be placed into any situation and think for herself. I don't have to worry about cars,cats,squirrels or any distraction. My dog is not sensitive to sounds and doesn't re act to any noises. My dog has verbal and visual cues(hand signals which allows her to be father away from me and still take directions.) My dog will  not approach people out and about, she will ignore other dogs(that are on leash) because she knows a leash means they are working. She has manners on a sidewalk(ish) and if i tell her "my side" she will walk directly in front of me , so we don't hoard the sidewalk or paths. She is also off leash entirely My dogs can express her emotions...If she wants to greet another dog  she will sit and wait for them, and if they pass by without a greeting her she understands not all people or dogs like her. In a general way my dogs first two years are spent making her comfortable with the world around her and to problem solve for herself.

Being off leash my dog can literally re act or do whatever she wants( i mean its possible)But her life skills prevent her from re acting

 

Every (adult) dog that I know who is well trained in Canine Freestyle (which could also be called a whole lot of tricks if one wanted to) will also do all of those things. Just sayin'.

Many of the cues that we train for Freestyle are also useful in other ways. Most have verbal and hand cues, although in freestyle verbal is emphasized. They will ignore other dogs and people when off leash if told to because they are required to do that in the ring and at performances where they may be surrounded by an audience that sometimes includes dogs. They are not reactive, because again, that won't work. They know how to walk on left or right side, and directly behind because those are things we train for dancing. They will also walk in front: ditto.  None of us have taken our dogs to obedience classes. A few of us have done or do agility or scent work. But those skills you talk about were trained as part of "trick" training, or else trained separately just as you have.

No dog knows how to do those things well unless they have been trained to do them -- you trained your dog to do those things and clearly had success. But don't discount "trick" training or paint it all with a broad brush. Sure, if all you teach is sit up, roll over and shake a paw, it won't train them to walk on a leash.. No matter what, those things have to be separately taught, one way or another. My dogs learned all those things you mention........ except for the initial learning to walk on a leash and recall and other basics as a puppy or new dog,.......as a result of freestyle training.

My dogs will often, if unsure about something, check back with me to see if I have a cue for them. I never trained them to do that, but it sure is a useful behavior when off leash.

So in my opinion the only accurate thing to say is that if you want your dog to have certain skills you need to train them .  And that training will accumulate, no matter whether the context is "tricks" or obedience or deliberately training "life skills", and everything you train, if you are training well,  will strengthen the relationship and help the dog to make better choices on things you may not even have trained specifically. 

[alligande]

My boys focus was always agility and the huge amount of training that requires, they also have a bunch of fitness tricks as well tricks learned when they were puppies when I was teaching them the skills to learn.

They have the skills I think are important, great recalls, flying downs, stay when I ask, have excellent house manners and can fly round an agility course with running contacts, have proven that they are sheepdogs by learning the foundations of working sheep but have horrendous leash manners as I just never focused on them. But the most important thing is they are my friends and companions 

[Nuance]

 When i get a new puppy i have to startle train them. 

I stomp my heel on the ground to see what happens, do they jump straight up, do they jump and run, what anxiety levels they experience. After i gage their re action i can start to work with them by turning it into a game.....that game evolves into them jumping up(being startled but turning to me to playfight)This allows them to manage the startle factor in life.

 Training at a earlier life stage ,to me, seems less traumatic on the dog. Startling a 5 year old would seem to come with greater risk of worries and long term effects(depending on the dogs anxiety levels). 

Would doing certain things earlier in the dogs life allow it to grow more naturally (well rounded)?

[urge to herd]

Here's an article about plasticity in a human brain  https://www.livescience.com/14309-aging-human-brain-cognitive-decline.html  Plasticity in the human brain does decline as we age. It makes sense to me that plasticity in dog brains, or any mammal brains, would also decline with age. And it does seem that it's a bit harder to learn later in life. 

What have you seen/experienced that makes you think that training an older dog would be more 'traumatic' for them than training a younger dog? My guy is 12 and will be 13 in October. He still likes training.  No signs at all of trauma. 

I adopted a dog who was indeed traumatized. Shoshone had been very badly treated. We're talking starvation, no shelter, for over a year. She was about 2-3 yrs old when I got her. Once she settled in, (which took a few months), she took off like a rocket. She LOVED to train. She'd learn from watching my other 2. Shoshone was a bit of a prodigy, but learning for any of my border collies has always been fun for them at whatever age. 

I just re-read your post about 'life skills'. I call it basic manners that I've trained all my dogs to do. 

To my mind, as long as the dog is being well-treated, not over-worked and simply played with regularly, there's no problem.

Ruth & Gibbs

[Nuance]

Urge to herd,

 The article was interesting. Age does seem to play a factor. 

Its  not that i believe old dogs can't learn new tricks, rather stress affects mature (rats) in a way that can be detrimental.

Puppies can recover easier (it seems)

Thank you for the article.

[urge to herd]

Stress does affect me, (in my late 60s) more than it did in my much younger years. When I do trick training w/Gibbs, (almost 13) I do less reps and work for a shorter time than I would have a few years ago. I find myself doing the same with my own exercise routines and work routines. That old saying, 'less is more' translates for me into 'less is sooo  much more doable'!

Whether it's changing a habit in myself or teaching G a new behavior I want to create the least stress possible. It may be that your word 'traumatic', is equivalent to my word 'stressful'. In my understanding stress is milder than trauma. The definition of trauma: 'a deeply distressing or disturbing experience'.  The definition of stress: any type of change that causes physical, emotional, or psychological strain. Having lived w/more than one person with PTSD there is a clear difference for me between stress and trauma. All living things experience stress. A good percentage also experience trauma, unfortunately.

AND, stress is how we learn. Trauma frequently inhibits learning and change. 

Thanks for your reply.

 R&G  PS ~ Gibbs is still eager to 'play' with me when I bring out the clicker. If I pick it up to do a training session with him he is instantly alert! 

[Nuance]

Agreed,  Trauma cause a longer if not permanent damage ...My dog is traumatized by a dog she has never met or interacted with, she walks wide of this dogs house every time for what seems no particular reason. 

Stress seems to be a milder disruption she can ignore.

I try not to teach in an environment that is either stressful or traumatic, learning should be fun(for the most part)

Myself i am very cautious about creating stress or trauma, if i had to Startle train a dog that is older than 3 it becomes more questionable and possibly detrimental. On a personal level it becomes uncomfortable for me the older the dogs are.

(hope this makes sense)

[D'Elle]

In my opinion, and how i train dogs, training should always be fun, and not just "(for the most part)". If I a not making it fun for the dog, then I shouldn't be doing it. No matter what I am training the dog to do or not to do, it can be made fun and rewarding for the dog to learn.

As for trauma or stress in younger or older dogs - from my experience it depends entirely on the dog. Stress and trauma should always be avoided whenever possible. There is no point in stressing out a dog (or a person or horse or anyone else who is needing to learn something) in order for them to learn. It is never necessary. If it causes that in the dog, that is not the way to go about it.  I would never cause any of my animals stress or trauma on purpose, at any age.  I also would never think it was necessary to startle a dog.

I don't think that stress is how we learn. My dogs have always learned the best in a stress-free environment.  My training of dogs is always low stress. At the first sign of stress in the dog I stop and move on to something else.  In my experience, most dogs, especially sensitive dogs, won't learn anything at all if they are under stress, except that training is stressful and therefore to be avoided. And I don't learn well at all under stress either, in fact I may not learn anything. My whole way of teaching is about encouragement.  Deliberately causing stress  or startle seems like a terrible idea to me. Especially in a young dog, because you don't know what could turn out to cause trauma.

Also in my experience I have found that if a puppy or other young animal gets traumatized by something (no matter how small an incident it seems to us) it can cause a life-long phobia or avoidance behavior that is very difficult if not impossible to change.  On the other hand, if I have an older animal who has always been treated with kindness and respect, and who has had very little stress in their life, they don't seem as affected by that kind of thing. For instance, I don't yell at my animals or stomp my feet or bang things and I certainly never do those things AT them. As a result, when my dogs are adults they can roll with what happens much more easily. If someone nearby does bang something, stomp their feet, or yell, they assume it has nothing to do with them. They may, sensibly, get out of the way but they do not tend to be frightened, because they know I won't let anything harm them.

I also know that a dog never has an avoidance reaction to something "for no particular reason", even though it can seem that way to us.  If there weren't a reason perceivable to the dog, the behavior wouldn't be there. Maybe that particular dog "said" something to your dog in dog language that makes your dog avoid them. 

[urge to herd]

1 hour ago, D'Elle said:

I don't think that stress is how we learn. My training of dogs is always low stress.

D'Elle, my bad ~ stress is ONE of the ways we learn. Life includes stress. Sometimes we and/or dogs are able to learn from it. Low stress is still stress, if the dog has good experiences with the human the stress is much lower, but is still there a bit. The stress that comes with learning new information can become giddy excitement when the human or the dog gets it right for the first time, whatever 'it' is. And then the heart rate elevates . . .  etc. That's a sign of mild stress.

Learning is complex: being taught a new behavior is stressful when teacher and student are the same species. When they're different species and there's a relationship between the two, it's still stressful.

I LOVED school, loved learning new stuff, had great friends and wonderful teachers. Every test, every new skill that I had to master was stressful. I had good teachers helped but it didn't wipe out the stress of tests, etc. I STILL relish the excitement when learning a new thing, a new skill of some kind. 

Ruth & Gibbs, who both continue learning

 

[D'Elle]

4 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Learning is complex: being taught a new behavior is stressful when teacher and student are the same species. When they're different species and there's a relationship between the two, it's still stressful.

I am interested in your thoughts on this, urge to herd. It's possible that you and I are using the word differently or mean different things by using it. 

When I start a training session with one of my dogs, the dog is always happy and excited. He knows that all he has to do is figure out what I want and he will get rewarded. It's kind of like like a puzzle toy that dispenses treats. Figure out how to get the treats. If you see figuring out how to get the treats from the toy as stressful, then you and I have different definitions of stress, which is OK, but good to clarify. In my experience, a treat toy or frozen Kong is given to a dog to reduce stress in the dog. 

My dog doesn't show any symptoms of the kind of stress that I am talking about. He only shows joy and eagerness because he knows that all he has to do is make the right move in the direction of what I want, and he will be rewarded.  If he doesn't make the right move, nothing happens. So he tries again.  Of course, I make it extremely easy for him to try the correct thing and harder for him to do other things, so it usually doesn't take long. And he'll be rewarded for every tiny incremental step toward what I ultimately want. He has the same body language most of the time as he has when we are playing, with eyes bright and a smile, and focused on me.

(Well, most of the time. If he's just not in the mood today then we don't train and go back to it tomorrow.)

For me, when being taught something I really want to learn, and with a good teacher who I know won't be critical of early efforts, learning a new skill is fun for me and not the least bit stressful as I define stress. It wasn't that way in school but of course that was very different because making a wrong move was punished.

Now, I am not saying we never learn from stress - of course we do. We often learn  as adults the most far-reaching lessons in life because of something that went wrong from our perspective. I value those as much as I value any other kind of learning. I just don't think it applies the same way to dogs. 

I don't think that getting it right and being rewarded is stressful for either dog or human being under normal and encouraging circumstances. It will definitely be stressful if the person or dog is actually stressed out about something else, like knowing that they got punished last time or caused disappointment for getting something wrong.  But, as I say, I may be defining stress very differently from the way you are.

 

 

[urge to herd]

'the dog is always happy and excited. He knows that all he has to do is figure out what I want and he will get rewarded.' The word 'excited' for me is neutral to positive, as is the word 'stress'. Most people think stress is bad.  Physically, in humans or beasts, excitement raises the heart rate, blood pressure, etc. Yes, we may be using it differently. In a purely physical way, those things are signs of stress.

Going back to my own experiences ~ I've been involved in a LOT of theatrical performances, usually from a back stage perspective. There is nothing like waiting for the lights to go down and the curtain to go up to get the heart pumping hard in a wonderful way. It's almost a high, actually. And it's stressful as all get out.

We've all experienced good stress, (unexpected good news, having a whopping good time with friends, that sort of thing). Yes, we are using/thinking about 'stress' in a different way. Anything that makes the heart beat faster is stress. I'm not medically knowledgeable enough to explain it better than that. Of course you don't want to heap stress on your dog as you're training it. "He only shows joy and eagerness" when he knows we're about to train. Yes, and his heart rate and breathing are likely going up.

I think the difference between how you and I think of stress is that you believe it's a bad thing, no exceptions. I experience 2 kinds of stress, the stress of unpleasant events and the stress of WONDERFUL events. My blood pressure goes up with both. Physiologically it's stress, and the hormones being released may be very different.

[Nuance]

I don't know another person who startle trains their dogs .

Startle training turns a potentially dangerous situation into a joyful experience for the dog.

If taking something bad (for my dog) and making it into something good, is wrong ,i'd rather be wrong every time.

 

 

[urge to herd]

And the difference between stress and trauma ~ stress has varying degrees of intensity, and in my mind can be helpful stress or not-helpful stress. 

If you stumble and fall, scraping your knees or your elbows, that's stressful. If you stumble and fall and break your leg, that's traumatic. It's a difference of degree in damage. 

R & G 

 

[Nuance]

 A dog park can be a stressful place or even traumatizing for a puppy. 

 

On a personal level, there wasn't a single day when i was becoming a Carpenter that i thought it was fun, it was work. Real life holds both stress and trauma , like myself, my dog isn't going to avoid either(stress or trauma) because its un avoidable. The real world shapes the way we are good and bad.

A lot of people startle there dogs ,clapping to get dogs attention , tapping their side , yelling and stomping to move them off whatever the dog has gotten into. I see people startle there dog all the time. I don't startle my dog after its trained to re act in a safe manner.

When we walk down the street people don't notice me, they notice the dog. They clap for the dog, they are amazed by dog, They comment on the dog.

Our training is real world.....because that is the world i need her to survive in, thrive. 

The training style i use begins and ends with the dog. What i train/do is very specific and unique to me and my dogs situation/needs.

 

*I would also like to thank every one for their contributions* Thank You

[D'Elle]

14 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Yes, we are using/thinking about 'stress' in a different way.

Yep, that explains it. Thanks for the clarification, urge to herd. 

[D'Elle]

14 hours ago, Nuance said:

I don't know another person who startle trains their dogs .

Maybe there's a good reason for that. Like, maybe it's not a great idea. 

[D'Elle]

11 hours ago, Nuance said:

 What i train/do is very specific and unique to me and my dogs situation/needs.

No doubt this is true of all of us, and is true of me and my dogs. My training, beyond the bare basics,  is keyed precisely to my life style and how the dog needs to behave living and travelling  with me. My dogs also encounter people who say they are amazingly well behaved, and they are. Some things wouldn't necessarily suit another person's lifestyle but they suit us.

[Nuance]

8 hours ago, D'Elle said:

Maybe there's a good reason for that. Like, maybe it's not a great idea. 

I laughed so hard at this!!!!

 Don't teach your dog what others don't?  Do you or anyone you know train their dogs without a leash(full time) or to stand at every street(without crossing) Do you know anyone who trains without treats or lures? I  scoured the internet for people who train without LURES or TREATS, guess what i found, nothing.

I could list a lot off stuff that is specific to me and my dogs that others don't do, Had you heard of startle training a dog before i mentioned it? has anyone ever told you why they do it and what it does for the dog, besides me?

D'ELLE,

 This is why i started this topic, there are people who use there dogs for specific things . Your dog isn't going to fair well in my dogs environment but put my dog in yours, it is gonna be a walk in the park .(because my dog is trained to deal with , handle stress) The difference between us isn't our dogs, its our understanding and use of our dog. You feel a need to protect your dog, i feel a need to educate mine.

I am alone in my endeavors like my dog is alone in her abilities.

Its important for anyone to know that we each teach our dog  what's important to us. My dog doesn't know agility or dancing  or a host of other tricks because shes learning life skills .When she has that she has what she needs(from me) for the rest of her life regardless of her situation.

I appreciate the view point you express even if it don't agree. Thank You

 

 

 

 

 

[beachdogz]

I have been following this thread with great interest.  I love when topics make me think deeper.  I'd like to respond to some of your comments:   Do I know anyone who trains a dog without a leash? Yes.  To stand at  a street corner without crossing?  Yes  To train without treats?  Yes.  Many people.  Some are not trainers.  Some are farmers.  Some are hunters.  When you say you scoured the internet searching for people who did this and found no one -- well, the internet is going to supply you with dog trainers, all of which have their own preference to methods.  There are many people who train dogs who are not professional trainers and not "on the internet."  None of this is new!!  Do I think people who train without luring or treats are better - or worse - than the other.  No, not at all.  If you say, "good dog" and express pleasure when the dog does something right, this is every bit a form of rewarding as are treats and luring.  Is any of this new?  Nope.  Been training dogs for 48 years now.  Not much is new. 

Your quote: " there are people who use there dogs for specific things . Your dog isn't going to fair well in my dogs environment but put my dog in yours, it is gonna be a walk in the park .(because my dog is trained to deal with , handle stress)"  This is a totally unfair or more likely, un-knowledgeable thing to say.  How do you know that D'Elle (or anyone's) dog wouldn't fair well in your dog's environment?  D'Elle has chronicled her long and tedious rehabilitation of a shut-down Border Collie from a horrendous puppy mill. Doing that took a tremendous amount of knowledgeable training.  This tells me she can train a dog, and rather well, at that.  Perhaps her dogs would fare just fine in your dog's environment.  I am wondering if you think that because people train their dogs for activities or dog sports like agility or trick training or dancing, their dogs are not capable of basic training, manners, and life skills. I think you would be surprised at how many people on this board have dogs that would fare well in your dog's environment, including many working BC's who are trained on sheep or cattle.

I'm guessing there are many, many people (trainers) on this board that have taken their dogs in public and garnished compliments, as you say you get while walking your dog.  Because to the general public, who may have untrained or problem dogs, our dogs look remarkable.  Just take your dog to the vet and sit in the waiting room.  The compliments we receive for having well behaved dogs gives us the opportunity to direct those persons to training programs. 

Now before you ask:  My dogs are trained with treats.  I chose that method.  I don't think it is better or worse than yours. My dogs do not walk down the street off leash -- for many reasons (although I'm sure mine, and many, many others are totally able to do that while being attentive to us).  #1.  I feel this would make many people uncomfortable.  Not everyone likes dogs and some may be fearful, no matter how well trained the dog is.  #2.  I want total control of my dog.  You may think that you have that, however, dogs (like humans) are fail-able and can make mistakes.  I say this from 48 years of training and am currently on dogs 16 and 17.  No dog is perfect.  And if my dog is off lead, and minding his business and minding me, and another off-lead dog attacks him, you cannot guarantee that this dog will not panic and run-off into traffic in that situation.  I am not willing to take that kind of chance.  I get the feeling that you feel your dog is 100% reliable.  Trust me when I say this:  NO DOG is 100% reliable.  No dog is perfect, just as no human is perfect. 

So this thread has been great food for thought (however, it is not even a new topic amongst trainers.)  I did not omit your "startle training" subject.  I have my thoughts on that and will address that in a separate post.  You have a lovely dog and have done a great job of teaching her - I applaud you for that!! And I love a thread that makes people think!  So thank you for that, also.