SS Cressa Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 sorry I know this is a lot. I recently acquired a new border collie (March 26, 2021). I was talking to a working border collie breeder about their future breeding plans and they ended up mentioning another breeder who had a red sable adolescent border collie available since I’ve always had a slight crush on red sable border collies. I was slightly worried about a working breeder having a red sable since color breeders however the breeder mention this was the 4th time doing this cross and they really like the temperament that the cross produce. (The original breeder I had talk to had a pup from the same cross but from a different year and had really liked him. They wished they had kept him instead of rehoming him. They were getting another puppy from the same cross.) The dog I was looking at was 1 year old. No training. Only inside at nighttime in the kennel. Else he was in the dog yard. He was supposed to go to another country to a person who own a sister from a different year but Covid hit and they couldn’t ship him. The person ended up switching to a younger pup which is why he became available. He had exposure to goats as a puppy and had interest but hadn’t seen livestock since. He did have multiple sibling who were working. His parents seem to casually worked on their farm. No videos. Ive been getting more into herding. Been going to a trainer since October 2020 about once a month and finally recently found a place near me that was willing to rent sheep to me so we can get more training in. Cressa has since passed and was past her ability to do herding again when I started in October. Valek is turning 9 this year but I have been mainly working with him. When I got my new boy I told the breeder what I was looking for and that I wanted to do herding and disc. I really like many aspect of my boy. He is adorable. He has a wonderful happy personality and loves being in my pack. He is intelligent but also has many moments of not the brightest bulb in the box. But he also has a couple things that really are bothering me. One main issue is Ive never had a yard dog before or an adult with 0 training. He has been squirrelly since the day I brought him home. He acts likes whatever you are asking him will kill him so must balk at doing it and resist. He also will immediately pee on something, and also pees when he gets stressed/excited/nervous. You are able to convince him eventually. He has gotten better… but will revert right back when something changes or is new. Is this something that does get better like will he at one point just be able to handle changes or is this just who he is? I bring my dogs most places with me (hotels, cafe, hikes, dog friendly stores, training centers, vacations, homes, etc…). I currently am using belly bands when inside at new places but don’t want that to be the only solution. The breeder mention he had no noise sensitivity but when he had his 1st thunderstorm here he half jumped out of his skin and was ready to bolt at a moments notice. He was able to settle down when he saw no one else bolting but when another boom happen he was again ready to bolt and only settled when no one else bolted… rise and repeat. It’s not a make or break issue but was hoping not to have to deal with it. The other main issue is I wanted to do herding with him. I was hoping to learn more. I was hoping we could eventually compete. I brought him to sheep 2 weeks ago. He saw them and ran the opposite direction scared. The next week he saw sheep he didn’t run scare but he was acting like he was playing and not herding at all. His breeder mention they can be slow maturer but reiterated that he did have interest in goats as a 7-8 week old puppy. The breeder that originally referred me mention he just needs more exposure and hopefully he will turn serious. Another person who saw the video mention to just rehome him since he isn’t a good choice for herding. Is that behavior typical for an almost 1.5 year old border collie? I was going to see how he responded again in a couple weeks. But am unsure if he is a good option if I did want to get more into herding. (He does come from cow lines so maybe they mature different then the one bred for sheep?) I had been originally planning if I didn’t get a pup to look at possibly an older already trained dog getting retired or something. *He loves disc! But I’m not interested in doing just disc with my border collies. Just looking for input if you have been there before either with yard dogs or if your border collies first couple exposure to sheep were not what you expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Ok, you basically knew what you were getting to begin with. Be prepared to work, a lot, for a long time. Yes, I have taken older pups, over a year, and all I require is sound temperament. I knew, going in, the bloodline. I was not after *color*, rock solid and he always was. From day 1 he could go anywhere, off lead, be around anything, and we began to work within a month of his arrival. His temperament carried over to stock as well. He was my main dog for quite a while. He was well worth the wait and today I have relatives of his due to the temperament and ability. You bought for color. Hopefully you have the ability to help this dog. Treat him like the 8 week old pup and start at the beginning, the very beginning. Once they are sound sensitive they always will be and it will get worse with age. I wish you the best of luck. You enabled a color breeder unfortunately. What 7/8 week old pup would not have interest in stock? The curiosity of a pup should never be confused with ability or desire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Not a herding dog trainer, here, BUT, when I took in Shoshone she was pretty much feral from being isolated and half starved. and god knows what else. The advice I got from experienced dog trainers was to treat her like an 8 week old pup, in terms of everything. Housebreaking, leash training, obedience, everything. To me it sounds like you've got a dog with no training at all. So you need to start with basics, house-breaking especially if you want him in the house with you. If he's crazed with fear at thunder/lightening, you might consider getting him a tranquilizer. I found that doggy prozac did nothing for Shoshone. Clomicalm, which is prescribed for dogs with separation anxiety, worked like gang busters. A few days into Shonie on Clomicalm and she was sitting in a friend's lap. There's no quick fix here. Start with the dog you have and work with what you've got. PS ~ I wouldn't get a dog from this 'breeder' again. I also wouldn't recommend anyone to her. Ruth & Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 He sounds like an insecure/fearful dog to me. If you decide to keep this dog, Google “Kathy Kawalec Enlightened by Dogs”. Subscribe to her podcasts. If you have a Facebook page, follow her business page. Read everything she has written about fearful or reactive dogs. Out of all of the advice I have seen about how to handle fearful dogs, I have never seen anyone as spot on as Ms. Kawalec. https://dancingheartsdogacademy.com/ To the admins: Delete if not allowed. I know this is a shameless plug, but I get no financial benefit from it. I just know her methods work (I have a fearful Chihuahua). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 I looked at him cause of his coloring yes… however I bought him cause he sounded like a dog with a solid temperament and a high potential to enjoy what I’m interested in. I am color bias tho I love black/whites, red sable(but Felix will be my last), and black tri’s. 100% not interested if merles or most other colors. I don’t know about herding and puppies. In some working bred border collie group it seems to be a selling point for some pups to show their potential on goats or sheep so I assume not all pups are interested but maybe it’s just something byb use as a gimmick? My roommate recently in October 2020 acquired an adult trained working border collie who was an rural outside dog and they also had at least 4 months adjusting to being an inside dog in a city. I wasn’t sure if it was the same for my boy which is why the questions. He came from backwoods rural life to inside city life. With being a rural yard dog I wasn’t sure if the squirrelliness was just lack or exposure and not sure how to react. It sounds like a confident dog will be confident regardless of exposure or training tho so this is something that will get better with training but it is also who he is. I wasn’t told he was nervous or fearful or super squirrelly or noise sensitivity. I wouldn’t have gotten him if I was. I wasn’t sure if what I’m seeing is him still adjusting or just who he is. Why I was curious about others experience with yard dogs. Thank you everyone who responded and provided input. Really appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 Potential is a crap shoot with puppies and there is no way to know the final outcome based on exposure at 7 weeks, yes, I would call it a gimmick and generally an unsafe practice..ask yourself this though - if the person who recommended you to this *so called breeder* let their pup go, why go back? Why does a breeder have a year old untapped, untrained, untouched, yearling? And why would they tell a potential buyer anything negative? Yes, there is an acclimation period, 6 months later though that time period has long gone..what you see is what you get after a few months. The squirrellyness is him. You've been here and in the breed for long enough to know better. Like I said, I hope you can cope and help him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 My Gibbs is a 'washout' from working. He's also the offspring of high-winning working parents and spent his first year, (after being weaned) with Bill Berhow in TX, who does a lot of training of working dogs. He got sold on as a working dog to some friends of mine in CA. I got him because he wasn't really showing any interest in sheep. They kept him till they found a good home for him, which turned out to be me. What Journey says is absolutely right on. You may be able to help him be a calmer dog and a good pet, but I doubt he has working in his future. And FWIW Gibbs had to be housetrained. He was well-treated, but as a working dog prospect, not a pet, so he had some new stuff to learn. IF he continues to be 'squirrely' please consider using a medication for him. Give him at least a month to settle. If he's not calmer then talk to your vet. I had to be talk my vet into doing a trial run of the clomicalm, generic name clomiprimine. Even HE saw the difference in Shonie when I took her in a couple months later for something or other. She became much calmer, friendlier to people in general, and a lot easier to live with. Please let us know how you get on. R&G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 "It sounds like a confident dog will be confident regardless of exposure or training tho so this is something that will get better with training but it is also who he is." Not necessarily. If he's more confident within a couple months, he might blossom into a new dog. You won't know until you get there. R&G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 @urge to herd she said in the OP that she got him in March the honeymoon time imo is past.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 I’m going on having him 4 months at the end of July. I got him at the end of March. I know sometimes it can take dogs 6 months to adjust or at least been told that. I should have known better though if something sounds too good to be true it is. I was told he had 0 training since the person he was being sent to wanted him to be a blank slate. I was shown him walking at tractor supply, and getting blown dried. He has been worked with getting nails trimmed also and has no qualms about it. I know not everyone is honest but I thought if you want to place your dog in permanent homes they should know any issues. The breeder/person that had rehome her pup advised she regretted doing it and thought he would have turn out just fine. She really liked his temperament so went back for another pup when an opportunity arose. Other than the above he does have a nice temperament. He has a great recovery. He loves to please. He is quick at learning commands. He has wonderful dog manners. He is really nice size. He avoids cats. He is really human focus but not obsessively. I have limited interaction with kids but he hasn’t shown any time of concern with kids(the breeder had kids) I love that he tries to figure out what you are saying to him. He is a happy go lucky boy when he is comfortable in his surroundings. When he squirrels we back up to a more comfortable bubble to let him process for a moment then I tell him we got this and complete the task normally on the 2nd-4th try. He squirrel out but gets over it. I was just hoping we could get over that initial faze of squirrelling. lol I was/am treating him like a puppy. He has gotten WAYYY better about controlling his bladder but we still have potty breaks every couple hours. Training is kept short to keep him engaged. He is still learning playing with people is a lot of fun but doesn’t have any issues with playing solo. I’m hoping he will eventually play with the other dogs. He loves to flirt with my terrier, and my other border collie has been able to played tugged for a moment before Felix dropped the toy and disengaged. I try to keep play short since he can gets over the top and I don’t enjoy obsessive crazy behaviors. I’ve also been working on body awareness. Im not against meds but I’ve been told you should not give behavioral meds to dogs when they are under 2 years old. If I just wanted to do disc, dock diving, nosework, FCat, and ratting he would be perfect since it aligns with what he has shown an interest in so far. but half of the above is off topic. Since not related to yard dog or stock exposure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 I agree with Journey that the honeymoon period for a rehomed dog is over. However, I also know from experience that you can cultivate change in a dog’s behavior if you are committed to doing so, but it does take commitment. Whether or not he becomes a “new dog” depends on how you interpret that. For all practical purposes, I had a “new dog” after months of working with my Whippet, but he never would run – not even in a lure coursing event. I tried him once. I didn’t really care that much one way or another. It would have been fun, but my purpose for getting him was companionship, not dog events. He would run circles around me off leash, had a solid recall, and LOVED to run when it was unstructured, even with people and other dogs around. It was a beautiful sight. My Whippet was not a “yard dog”, but he was a kennel dog. I got him from a lure coursing judge when he was 13 months old. The judge got him for straight racing, but as I said, he wouldn’t run. She placed him with one other family who returned him. He turned out to be a wonderful companion to me. He did gain confidence in leaps and bounds. He may not have been as confident as a dog who might be genetically predisposed to boldness, but he was as confident as he needed to be for both him and me. I could take him anywhere. Just as an aside, I believe that temperament is heritable and behavior (and tendencies toward certain behaviors) are both heritable and environmental. From your latest post, I would say he is coming along. You just need to decide if you are willing to work with this dog and enjoy him regardless of whether or not he will work stock. I think that if you get a dog for a specific purpose, herding for example, and the dog’s performance will make or break your satisfaction with him, then you probably should have bought a started or trained dog. That is just my opinion, and I’m sure many will disagree. Even with a trained dog, you might find some reason the dog is not suitable for you at the place you’re at; for example, if the dog requires a more experienced handler. My philosophy is that I will work with the dog I have and enjoy him for what he is. That suits my purposes, and I have learned so much from different dogs. If this does not suit your purposes, and if you decide to rehome him, you want to do him the courtesy of a thoughtful placement, which involves time and energy. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 My comments above are in no way meant to insinuate it is a sin to rehome a dog, or that I have never or would never do so. However, my current criterion is that my dogs must live in harmony. For a person with a sheep operation, the criteria will be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2021 Report Share Posted July 15, 2021 You're really digging your own hole WHAT do you mean you saw him "walking at tractor suppy"? Seriously? You saw him away from home, never saw his home and his behavior there? You KNOW better..you've disregarded more red flags due to your "color" infatuation, as well as enabled a poor breeder. Is he neutered? Honestly, I'd say don't do it if he isn't. Is he health tested? Sire/Dam tested? Hips? Keeping the testosterone may help him with confidence, may not, but once gone you can't put it back... His good attributes sound nice. Deal with the issues, one by one as they present themselves, sounds like your making headway already. Baby steps, lots of them and going backwards only reinforces your foundation. Meds, I disagree with medicating until *all* other options have been given a fair shake, ALL. There are some behaviors that city dogs have to acclimate to and learn that I think are crazy, but, they can and will if they're capable. Farm dog vs. city dog is a straw man argument. Temperament. It's all about temperament, and that's inherited. Don't set him up to fail though, his default behavior will come shining through..good luck! Give him a good solid year, then take him to stock again. He has had his world turned upside down. Let him learn new things, acclimate, learn to recover and gain confidence. See how he does then, when you really *know* him. With all the change he has been faced with in the past few months, give him some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 16, 2021 Report Share Posted July 16, 2021 I too wouldn't medicate a dog, (or a human for that matter) until all other options have been explored, sorry I didn't make that clear. I've had useless conversations aplenty with people who would not even consider against anti-depressants/anti anxiety agents. For anything ever. I know from personal experience that medication can do much more harm than good if not prescribed and used appropriately. Once a medication such as those mentioned above is prescribed and is shown to be effective, it's usually given for life. Expense can be another issue, but as I recall the clomicalm that Shonie was on was inexpensive. Best of luck as you move forward with him! R&G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2021 19 hours ago, Journey said: You're really digging your own hole WHAT do you mean you saw him "walking at tractor suppy"? Seriously? You saw him away from home, never saw his home and his behavior there? You KNOW better..you've disregarded more red flags due to your "color" infatuation, as well as enabled a poor breeder. Is he neutered? Honestly, I'd say don't do it if he isn't. Is he health tested? Sire/Dam tested? Hips? Keeping the testosterone may help him with confidence, may not, but once gone you can't put it back... How I acquired him and my decision process was never part of the question. I talked to the breeder for about 2+ weeks if he would be a good fit. I had multiple people refer me to the breeder. I only included some in this post to give his background. I was leery due to the colors being produced but this wouldn’t be the 1st breeder who did repeat breeding due to how much they liked a cross(if it’s acceptable for black/white why would red/white be different - rhetorical ? I asked myself). The breeder sent me the video plus response to some of my questions. I never saw Felix in person prior to me picking him up. The tractor supply video was seconds of him heeling next to the breeder from the handler view point. She mention he hesitated at the moving door but worked thru it and they continue to the store(no video of that). The blow drying video was maybe 10 second of him getting blown dried for the first time and he was just standing there(he was already partially dried so guessing it might have been a little into the drying). The breeder was over 12 hour drive for me so I never met them before and was going off referrals from people who I trusted. It has always been difficult for me to get working breeders to provide detail response to behavior and provide videos outside of the dog working for me. So nothing the breeder mention in email or over the phone set off alarm bells other then his coloring and that his parent only worked cattle sporadically but his Dad was sent off to be trained and his mom was trained at home so it sounded like there was potential for some talent. Did the parents have health test? Yes. Is he neuter? No, I never plan on breeding him tho. I still have to send his papers in to transfer ownership. Again that is OT to the questions being asked. Im currently doing baby steps and will see how he improves. I might just have him as an other dog(disc, nosework, and hopefully Bikejoring) if he isn’t interested in herding and get a forth dog but regardless that will be a least couple years from now. I tried to keep my expectations low since I know it’s a lot for him to adjust to which where the above question came from. I really appreciate the hope and input! Thank you again! *Only 3 of the dogs in the pictures are mine. I somehow seem to acquire an additional 2 border collies on our hikes. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 On 7/15/2021 at 6:13 PM, Journey said: Give him a good solid year, then take him to stock again. He has had his world turned upside down. Let him learn new things, acclimate, learn to recover and gain confidence. See how he does then, when you really *know* him. With all the change he has been faced with in the past few months, give him some time. I think this is the best advice of the whole thread. I'm not a stock person, but the first sentence seems logical. Too often I see people say that a re-homed dog usually adjusts within 6 months, but we all know that every dog is different. With my Kylie, it was (seriously) more like two years before I saw the dog she really could be. I'm guessing the problem is that you had your heart set on herding. I'm thinking that unless you purchase a dog that is already proficient in herding, you are never guaranteed that will happen either with an untrained, young dog or even a puppy from excellent herding lines. So I think it might be wise not to take him back to sheep for a while and just let him mature with you; then try him out later. You have a lot of experience with dogs and training....I have no doubt that you will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted July 25, 2021 Report Share Posted July 25, 2021 With respect to his interest in herding: First, I agree with others that have expressed the opinion that a 7-8 week old puppy that chases a few goats around indicates absolutely nothing about future herding ability. I would have suspected any breeder that told me that (a red flag). On the other hand, I would give him more time to show if he does have interest in herding. Bring him with you when you go herding with other dogs (or if you go to a sheepdog trial). Tie him near the action if possible and observe his behavior. If he seems scared, he is too close. Keep him at a distance where he can comfortably show interest (hopefully) in the sheep without the pressure to interact with them. If he does begin to show interest (one time, 2 times or 6 or more times), you (your trainer) could try a low pressure introduction to sheep. i.e. bring him into a round pen with docile sheep to see what he does, but don't push him to do something. A good trainer should know what to do. All is not lost. I have heard of some dogs that don't turn on until 18-24 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2021 I was going to see how he is on sheep again at the end of the month with a trainer present. I’m ok if he is a slow maturer since I was going to start focusing on him more next year. I got worried when I saw his reaction and then had someone tell me based on his reaction he wouldn’t be good for herding. I had him recently in 2 new situations and he handled himself really well. He has been quick on catching on training even if it’s not in a formal setting. He does get some serious green eyes if I praise another dog but he will figure it out. all of my dog have gone through that green eye period. I was worried when I brought him to an outside dog friendly garden today. I didn’t want him to mark or pee on everything. There was a ton of people there, kids squealing “doggy!!!”, people with canes, people pulling wagons, etc… he tried to pee twice I told him “NO! Not here”, lead him over to where it was safe to pee, and after the second correction he was like oh ok. He was super well behaved, calm, and acted like I’ve done a ton of obedience training with how well he was listening. I do practice basic but nothing formal. It’s more you want a toy you have to listen type training. Yesterday he came with me to an outside patio. There were people walking by, people swarming us to say hi to the dogs, kids, bikes, dogs… etc… he was super well behaved like he’s been doing this his whole life instead of it being his first time. Most of the time he was just chillax #winning Thank again for everyone input and giving me hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 He seems like a very nice dog. Good luck with him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 Felux did wayyyy better today on sheep. I was able to rent my herding instructor and get her to come down to the farm for help. He was on leash. His tail was low, had interest, more focus, engaging the sheep in work mode than crazy playing mode. She suggested to keep bringing him to lesson to see sheep, but only works him on sheep once a month, and to keep his lesson short till he is more mentally mature. It was sure nice seeing him more serious this time. The trainer mention is super soft, really pressure sensitive to the fence/sheep/barn, 0 pressure sensitive to me (we get to work on this!), and still had some squirrelly moments with the sheep that he worked thru and had interest in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted September 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2021 A small update. He has gotten better. We still have some set backs some days. He still has some squirrelly moments but he has gotten better. It helps that some of the things he wants to squirrel over my others dogs are unfazed… he see that and goes ohhhh… It amusing seeing him discover what he likes or doesn’t. I’ve taken him with me to tractor supply again and no issues. He has come with me also to pet supply plus. He was comfortable enough to greet other people and eating treats until one person said “Hi, Felix!” then he hid behind me looking at them suspiciously. He has decided he is NOT scared of thunder or fireworks. Hope that last. He hasn’t been on sheep again since our last training lesson with a trainer. He has join me for our lesson but just on the sideline. Even on the side line he seem more interested in what Valek was doing then the sheep. He liked it when the sheep scatter since THAT was exciting. He also discovered he is not interested in cows. He saw one on the farm, and was like that is a NOPE! Lol He adores frisbee, and jumping into the water. I’m debating if I want to do FastCat with him or not. I’m looking forward to getting him in some training classes. Thinking manners, and nosework. Just to get more exposure under his belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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