Katilea Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 ..and how much difference is there in there temperaments? I have working bred collie he's extremely intelligent can learn new jobs after one attempt etc but his herding/prey drive is very strong even now at 4 years old (despite the fact he's never worked sheep) so when we're out walking he has to be on lead and have to be one step ahead of him for triggers like noisy cars/motorbikes racing past that will trigger his stalk/chase instinct. I see a bloke out from a neighbouring village their collie has always been off-lead even near road she wont go on road she has no instinct to chase whatsoever and very submissive. Unfortunately I don't know where he lives and as he's always jogging usually some distance from us I've never managed to catch up with him to ask. I've known his female dog from a young pup when his partner used to walk her with their older dog and she has always been like this. The woman did say when I was talking to her once a few years back (when they were both puppies) that 'Gem' wasn't as bright as JJ and they were nicknamed 'Barbie collies' cos they have the looks without the drive and intelligence, (not saying I think this, but this is what the woman said to me) but she didn't say or I don't remember her saying where they got her from. She was admiring JJ's drive but said she wanted an 'easier' dog. I never seen any collies advertised as 'pet lines' or 'easier to handle than working bred' or anything though? .. was it just that one dog's personality or are all pet/show bred collies easier in comparison to train/live with than working bred dogs? Anyone else got one of each? Just curious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 There are definitely differences in those dogs breed specifically for working and those not. There are even differences of personality and intensity within working lines and even a litter of pups. I would think if a sheep producer can walk through a field of sheep with his dog off lead then most dogs can be taught to do the same. It is about your relationship with the dog engaging his mind, giving him a choice to make the right decision and respect... I would think you could rather easily find someone there to assist you in training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Any dog can be taught to walk nicely on a leash and not pull or want to chase things while on lead. Like Denise said, it is about training. Sure, some dogs will be easier to work with for certain people but you still have to put the work in. And of course, each dog is an individual and dogs from the same litter will have different natural behaviors and tendencies. What one person finds difficult in a dog, another would find easy or fun to work with. Your friend's dog isn't great off-leash and listens well simply because of his breeding. There was work put in over time to achieve those results. If your dog is really a pain to walk then I would enlist the help of a trainer or enroll in some classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 ^^ What they said. And since we don't endorse breeding border collies for anything but working ability (have you read the Read This First post in the welcome section?), you're not likely to get referrals to pet, Barbie or sporter collie breeders here. It's just not what we're about. Best wishes, and welcome to the Boards. If you want to ask questions about how to work with your dog with these triggers, I'm sure you'll find people more than willing to offer assistance. I'd suggest looking into doing some desensitization and counter-conditioning work with your dog. Searching the archives will yield lots of good information for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 You find "pet lines" generally through kennel club breeders but, as pointed out, that's not considered responsible breeding on these boards, where breeding for the work is the criteria for breeding Border Collies. Also, as pointed out, how a dog behaves is a combination of their temperament and their upbringing/environment. I have had a number of Border Collies (and Australian Shepherds), all working-bred, and none were car chasers or bike chasers or jogger chasers, and they all worked livestock on our farm. Most were never, ever interested in cars, bikes, etc., and the few that may have demonstrated the start of interest were quickly taught otherwise (generally by teaching other behaviors that distracted them from the vehicles). Some dogs have a much lighter trigger for movement than others. I think the key is to avoid the behavior *before* the dog or pup even thinks of it and, of course, your dog already has it as an ingrained habit. As Roxanne said, check the archives because there are many references to this particular problem, with advice on how to avoid it in the first place and how to deal with it once it's been established. There are a number of success stories that should help bolster your confidence in the methods described and your potential for getting this under control. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 I also agree you're saying it's because it's a working dog that is has this issue, but it's a training issue. 'Barbie' collies are from show lines and they come with an entirely different set of issues and you really don't want a sport line especially where you are wanting an all beauty, no brains, low drive version. Again sporter collies have different issues. My working collie has no issue being off leash on walks, and that is 100% training and commitment. Even a dog who has bad habits is able to change with help of a good trainer for the human and consistency on your part. We can certainly help you with that issue if you're interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 If you want a lower drive dog in a breed designed to be a working type, your best bet is to seek out an adult rehome or rescue. Some individual dogs are less excitable. That said, why not just choose a breed or type with a mellower outlook instead of looking for somone who breeds a type to basically not act like a Border Collie? And agreed on the "lots of training" thing. I have 2 pretty drive-y dogs with big personalities (one BC, one Pap) and they are just now the kind of calm, reliable, off lead dogs I want (able to recall off a cat running 3 inches in front of their nose, able to swim at a beach where other dogs and people are walking around and ignore them, able to be calm and relaxed in exciting places). They are 6 and 4. Took quite a while of effort and consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Yes, the show line dogs are generally lower drive, BUT... I know enough people who own them that I hear about their training, accomplishments and quirks. They are still weird BCs at heart and can have just as much prey drive and reactivity as working bred dogs. Training is key and will make most BCs into fabulous dogs. That said, some BCs are just born wired a little differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraV Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Liz is right. Some have the same drive as working dogs. We have one in our agility class and my God, does he have drive. Personally, I feel that it all depends on the dog and the owner. Some dogs just naturally stick to their owners, some need training, and others just dont do well off leash and with reactivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 You find "pet line" BCs when a working BC breeder decides that a certain dog/pup just isn't cut out for herding, and places him/her in a "pet" home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 ^^ Yes, that is a good place to find a pet border collie without sacrificing the ethical concern for appropriate breeding. . . . as long as you don't then go on to breed that dog, which would hopefully come already spayed or neutered or with a spay/neuter contract. Rescues are also great sources as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 I don't know enough about the Border Collie breed (let alone individual lines) to give you an educated answer to your question about the differences, and I would not have gone to a "Barbie Collie" breeder so no idea about their marketing language. But I can give you an anecdote to comment on (not answer) this: I never seen any collies advertised as 'pet lines' or 'easier to handle than working bred' or anything though? I brought home my first working bred Border Collie this weekend; a trained adult. In my limited sphere of knowledge, I imagine that this dog has a fair amount of drive if her ability to work sheep is any indication. However, she was advertised as a "great listener", and that was not a lie. This girl's general responsiveness is astonishing. I can't imagine that a "Barbie Collie" would be any easier to handle. She is mannerly, cheerful and good natured; just an overall delight. Of course, I didn't train her, so it helps that someone experienced did the heavy lifting for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 In my view, there's no such thing as "pet lines" of border collies. There are working collies and then there are the show or sport types, or there are backyard-bred collies that could be almost anything. I have a working bred male who is perfectly mellow when out on leash. All he wants to do is sniff and pee on things. His younger sister however is excitable, silly and full of beans. Same parents, same exact breeding, different temperaments.Even if you did find a collie that either flunked as a working dog or was bred for show or sports, that's no guarantee it won't have high prey drive or be excitable or reactive. Each dog is a distinct individual.Lack of working ability just means they don't want to work livestock. That doesn't mean they don't want to play, romp, run, bounce, bound and pull on their leash like a sled dog. I've known border collies who've never worked a day in their lives because that breaker just never switched on. But they definitely weren't couch potatoes.If someone says they want a dog without the drive of a working border collie, I tell 'em they'd better look into a Golden retriever. ~ Gloria ..and how much difference is there in there temperaments? I have working bred collie he's extremely intelligent can learn new jobs after one attempt etc but his herding/prey drive is very strong even now at 4 years old (despite the fact he's never worked sheep) so when we're out walking he has to be on lead and have to be one step ahead of him for triggers like noisy cars/motorbikes racing past that will trigger his stalk/chase instinct. I see a bloke out from a neighbouring village their collie has always been off-lead even near road she wont go on road she has no instinct to chase whatsoever and very submissive. Unfortunately I don't know where he lives and as he's always jogging usually some distance from us I've never managed to catch up with him to ask. I've known his female dog from a young pup when his partner used to walk her with their older dog and she has always been like this. The woman did say when I was talking to her once a few years back (when they were both puppies) that 'Gem' wasn't as bright as JJ and they were nicknamed 'Barbie collies' cos they have the looks without the drive and intelligence, (not saying I think this, but this is what the woman said to me) but she didn't say or I don't remember her saying where they got her from. She was admiring JJ's drive but said she wanted an 'easier' dog. I never seen any collies advertised as 'pet lines' or 'easier to handle than working bred' or anything though? .. was it just that one dog's personality or are all pet/show bred collies easier in comparison to train/live with than working bred dogs? Anyone else got one of each? Just curious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 And there is another sad tale; that of the a once lovely, intelligent hunting dogs turned dull pet. As a veterinarian I have been privileged to treat a number of field bred Goldens (and Labs, spaniels, etc) as patients. They are nothing like their pet and show bred counterparts, much like the split between working bred BCs and those bred for other purposes. These dogs are begging for work and direction from their owners. It's a thing of beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katilea Posted July 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 JJ's had 'lots of training' with this everyday for the last 4 years of his life, he goes out twice a day everyday and has to trot alongside my mobility scooter on the road in places where there are no footpaths (for us to get to quieter lanes, fields where he can go off-lead). If i see the car/bike coming up behind us in my rear view mirror I tell him and he slows down if we can safely pull over and stop I do if we can't we just have to keep moving with the traffic. I'm deaf so he often will hear something like that before it comes into sight anyway as lots of blind bends round these country lanes. It seems to have to be moving at a certain speed to trigger his head following it and dropping into crouch/stalk and seems to have to hit mostly his peripheral vision on his right side to trigger it too. It's not for example something like cats in general as he can walk past a cat on his left side that he hasn't seen (if it doesn't move) but if it's on other side of road and darts fast (like across the road) that will trigger the reaction, as I feel its more the motion of something zipping through his right peripheral field rather than it being specifically a car, a cat etc. As we pass many cars and them us and he's not reacting to every single one like that! We've walked alongside a dual carriageway with a steady stream of cars moving at a steady pace and he's been fine and happily sniffing along the large grass verge to his left on an extending lead walking and happily with lead loose. yet been on a road when there's only us and suddenly he'd shoot forwards in a crouch so I'm looking round to see what he's heard and usually its a car flying our way round a blind bend that he's heard long before I can see it coming, when it does pass us I relaise its either got a very noisy exhaust or its a motorbike, so the noise also may act as a trigger for some things. which given I'm profoundly deaf an can't hear them until they're on top of us makes it difficult for me to avoid. I do try and take him out at the quietest times of the day when I want to go a road with no footpaths on his left for him to run alongside and also do some traffic training later in the day when can't avoid more traffic about. He will be 4 in Sept and I've been doing this daily with him since he was a small puppy. Again it seemed to have been under control before but seems more nervous again lately, whether its because my other dog is no longer with us for him to use as a guide, or he's experienced a decline in sight I'm not sure but I will be taking him for another eye test to rule that out.I do think having a companion would help him but would prefer if I did go with another collie it didn't have that high prey drive instinct and felt one like the ladies dog that didn't react to cars etc might give him confidence walking alongside him. Particuarly if its because he is experiencing sight issues so things moving fast across line of vision is un-nerving him (maybe he's only seeing shadows or a flash of light on that side or something?..similar to them getting over stimulated by laser lights?) I managed to stay ahead and warn him of every car that was going to pass us fast today whilst out and he was fine when he knew when it was coming and to let it pass. Yesterday he reacted to a retriever that suddenly appeared alongside him (I didn't hear it either) but once he realised what it was (I said ..oh its a doggy look, he wants to play) he played with it for a good 5 mins while me and the dogs owner chatted. Now I know the dogs name if it comes again so I can say 'look Max is coming to play' or something and he'll be fine next time, so a few little niggly things here and there are making me wonder about his sight more and more lately and not just behavioural cos he's having to cope without my older dog guiding him, though that could be adding to his confidence issues if he has had sight issues too and I hadn't relaised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Your observations that lead you to think it could be sight-related are good ones. I wonder how you could go about finding out if that is the case? Maybe someone here could advise on that. It sounds like, once again, you are trying very hard to work with these problems and should be commended for doing so. Very best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katilea Posted July 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 ^^ What they said. And since we don't endorse breeding border collies for anything but working ability (have you read the Read This First post in the welcome section?), you're not likely to get referrals to pet, Barbie or sporter collie breeders here. It's just not what we're about. Best wishes, and welcome to the Boards. If you want to ask questions about how to work with your dog with these triggers, I'm sure you'll find people more than willing to offer assistance. I'd suggest looking into doing some desensitization and counter-conditioning work with your dog. Searching the archives will yield lots of good information for you. I probably read them when I first joined but I can't remember now, sorry I thought you were a group for ALL Border Collie owners not just working dogs. JJ did actually come from a sheepdog centre, though he works as my dual skills assistance dog (alerts to sounds and helps with physical tasks), and was bought with that purpose in mind. So he has had extensive training from a young age and can do a number of tasks for me. We just seem to getting a few odd inconsistent behaviours recently since my old dog passed away and I'm not sure whether its a lack of confidence on his part due to loss of his companion whose being here since he arrived at 8 weeks old and helped train him up, something maybe adopting an older calmer companion may help with or maybe he's experiencing sight issues that would also explain some puzzling reactions to things he previously didn't react that way to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Losing another dog can make a huge difference to some dogs. Their structure and routine is messed up. Not to mention missing their friend. I'd also think about the possibility of his hearing being off somehow. With this type of dog, I would be looking for a confident, easy going adult who was at least 2 y/o when I looked to add another dog. Something with solid behavior that he can model. Otherwise, you may end up with a pup modeling JJs behavior - no matter what lines it comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Deleted post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 I probably read them when I first joined but I can't remember now, sorry I thought you were a group for ALL Border Collie owners not just working dogs. The Boards are definitely for all owners of border collies and people interested in them. That doesn't mean the USBCC who hosts the Boards endorses what we consider to be irresponsible breeding, that is, breeding for anything other than working ability. This is what makes the breed what it is, and breeding for pets, sports, conformation showing, etc. changes the breed in ways that make it unsuitable for its original purpose. So, it's two entirely different things. You're certainly welcome on the Boards no matter what dog you have, but we're not likely to recommend breeders who don't breed real working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 And there is another sad tale; that of the a once lovely, intelligent hunting dogs turned dull pet. As a veterinarian I have been privileged to treat a number of field bred Goldens (and Labs, spaniels, etc) as patients. They are nothing like their pet and show bred counterparts, much like the split between working bred BCs and those bred for other purposes. These dogs are begging for work and direction from their owners. It's a thing of beauty. Yes, the working retrievers and labs don't even *look* like their tubby, short-legged show/pet counterparts. I love when I meet a hunting-bred dog of any sort. I saw a young man the other day with a German Shorthair that was freaking gorgeous. Very calm and steady, no hyperness - and built like a hard-muscled, deep-chested, running, hunting, bird-fetching machine. I complimented him on his dog and I heard someone else do the same. Beautiful! ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 To be honest I don't think I would choose a bc if I would want a pet. We have had a couple of dogs before the sheepkeeping madness began, all mutts/mixes; imo the best choice for a pet dog, come in all colors, sizes and characters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 "Pet" bred border collies can be just as reactive to motion as a working bred collie, and a working bred collie can be thoughtful and calm. At the moment I have 3 border collies in my house all from different backgrounds: The house guest is a pet/sports bred dog who is insane and horribly motion reactive My dog who is a rescue who came from a backyard farm breeding in Pensylvannia who is mildly reactive to motion, he has particular hatred of large diesel trucks with a certain pitch And my 4 month old ISDS puppy who is the calmest dog in the house, watches everything, but approaches everything very thoughtfully. In my agility club in Spain we have 5 puppies under 9 months, 2 are UK bred working dogs the other 3 are either show or sports bred, the 2 working bred are the calmest. You want to look for parents that are calm, thoughtful dogs, ask around, finding a good border collie in the UK is a much easier proposition than in the US where there is a very high percentage of dogs bred that not intended to be working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraV Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 Yes, the working retrievers and labs don't even *look* like their tubby, short-legged show/pet counterparts. I love when I meet a hunting-bred dog of any sort. I saw a young man the other day with a German Shorthair that was freaking gorgeous. Very calm and steady, no hyperness - and built like a hard-muscled, deep-chested, running, hunting, bird-fetching machine. I complimented him on his dog and I heard someone else do the same. Beautiful! ~ Gloria I have the honor of owning a field bred golden retriever. She looks nothing like the Goldens in a show ring. She's absolutely beautiful. Longer head, lean body, just gorgeous. Most people guess golden when they see her but ask why her coat is so short and why she is so lean. I explain it and they seem quite surprised. It's sad that a lot of people's perception of what a breed should look like is what is reflected in show dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 It's sad that a lot of people's perception of what a breed should look like is what is reflected in show dogs. I agree with this completely, especially when it comes to border collies and the hunting breeds like labs and goldens and retrievers. And German shepherd dogs. And poodles. And bull dogs. And......oh well, all of them. Most breeds shown in the ACK are ruined or "modified" in some way that I find reprehensible. To the OP: as others have said, this really is a forum for all border collie owners, not just those who have working dogs, and you are welcome here. The philosophy of the forum is that it doesn't condone breeding for anything other than working ability. We all definitely support rescue dog owners, no matter where their dogs came from, and many if not most of us here do not have dogs who work sheep, even if they are working bred dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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