Finding a breeder

[mum24dog]

One litter of 6 going to working homes??????

Is that one litter of the same cross or one litter from 6 different crosses?

 

The former will be hard on the bitch.

The latter is breeding 5 litters that are not working bred (not bred for work, bred to sell to non-working homes); without testing for work one does not know if the cross yielded good working insticts.

 

By reducing the number of pups being trained for work one looses the lateral pedigree information on instincts; one does not get carbon copies in all of the pups making if more difficult to assess the success of a cross as the percentage of the pups being trained decreases. There is a lot of value in evaluating pedigrees laterially.

 

Linguistic difference again. One litter comprising 6 pups

 

If I had meant 6 litters I would have said "one litter out of six".

 

Do you not refer to " a litter of 5" or whatever to denote the number of pups in it?

 

But if you have two litters instead of one and half of each litter is trained either by you or someone else who you are in contact with you still have the same number worked but have the bonuses of having more to choose from and left overs available for others.

 

I think I did say earlier that the same sire and dam could have two litters instead of one but if I didn't make clear that I was envisaging a repeat mating I apologise.

[mum24dog]

Hmmmm, you think maybe google selected top hits based upon your previous searches and current location?????

 

Google does a great job searching for Acronyms. Try it.

 

Also, don't you use ISDS all the time instead of writing it all the way out? How about KC or AKC; do you write it all the way out?

 

"UK"

 

 

For USBCC I suggest you look at the top of the page you're reading.

 

The point I was trying to make about acronyms is that they aren't a great hook to draw in outsiders since they don't know what they mean. Most people prefer their own language.

 

This board doesn't come up as USBCC when googled, it comes up with a friendly looking label in English, which is more attractive to those not in the know. Inclusive rather than exclusive.

 

If I'm addressing someone who isn't an initiate of the dog world I use the full names of the ISDS and KC.

[Mark Billadeau]

I did list the full name of NEBCA which you simply ignored. As far as USBCC, if you had read the home page of the site you're on, you (and all readers) would already know what the USBCC is; hence my comment "(this site)". It might be good for you and all readers to learn about the organization which provides this forum to you for free.

 

Be sure to never use acronyms here since there might be a new reader who won't know what you are talking about.

[mum24dog]

I have no business having any opinion on this, but I'm reading the thread, it's the internet and I do anyway.

 

My whole two thoughts, and they're not even worth two cents:

 

1.) Is it fair to expect people who make their living with stock and/or trial seriously to provide the public service of helping those who have no intention of doing those things find a dog? Yes, it's a service to a breed they love but their primary motivation is always going to be a dog for themselves.

 

followed closely by:

 

2.) Is it really fair to criticize people for not turning to those working breeders if the pups they want aren't available, people won't sell to them or help them find them? This board promotes these dogs as not just the ultimate stock dog but good for the right pet and performance homes as well - even saying that what makes them good stock dogs makes them good pets and performance/sports dogs.

 

People do need to learn to be patient, need to look at rescues, need to be prepared to network if they want something from the people who have the dogs.

 

Likewise, I really can't help thinking that if you want those pet and performance homes to HAVE these dogs and promote them that you want something from the puppy buying general public (and you do if you want them to consider working bred dogs) and giving a little in return would not be a bad thing. Even if it's nothing more than timely replies to emails or a generic list of links that a newbie would find useful.

 

Something has to give somewhere, and probably on both sides. Mostly, you can't have it both ways. People need to be putting in the legwork on their own and not expect to find a puppy this week (or month or maybe even year) but you can not tell them to go to a working breeder for a puppy and then make it nearly impossible for them to get that puppy.

Exactly.

 

I find it rather sad that someone in the US who just wanted an active working bred pet / possibly a bit of sport dog imported one from the UK out of my pup's litter.

 

Credit to her for not settling for less but I wouldn't have done it. I'd have asked around farmer friends who had a suitable litter or one planned regardless of the potential level of working ability.

[Mark Billadeau]

Not knowing our culture you would be unaware of the preception held by many here that imported dogs are better than those bred in North America. This is very evident in many North American breeder websites which tout that their lines are imported.

[mum24dog]

I did list the full name of NEBCA which you simply ignored. As far as USBCC, if you had read the home page of the site you're on, you (and all readers) would already know what the USBCC is; hence my comment "(this site)". It might be good for you and all readers to learn about the organization which provides this forum to you for free.

 

Be sure to never use acronyms here since there might be a new reader who won't know what you are talking about.

 

You're missing the point.

 

It matters not a jot whether you or I or anyone else use acronyms that are mutually comprehensible. What matters is presentation and if the aim is the education of the general public then accessibility of information is key, and that means grabbing the attention of searchers by any means necessary. Acronyms can be a barrier.

 

But if getting through to the public isn't important to you then just carry on doing what you do now. No skin off my nose as we don't generally have the problems of ignorance I keep being told exist in the US.

[CptJack]

I'd have asked around farmer friends who had a suitable litter or one planned regardless of the potential level of working ability.

 

 

And that is exactly why Molly came from where Molly came from.

 

I looked or tried to look but regional searches didn't occur to me - as opposed to state and surrounding states, which works just fine with AKC breeders - and I found ONE trial in a neighboring state and nothing else. I found some classified sites but like the one at NEBCA were mostly abandoned/empty. The breeders don't have websites and-

 

You know, all that's okay. No one owes anybody anything. Except or until you start complaining that people aren't buying from working breeders - who breed very rarely (good, even great), don't have an online presence, and have no time or interest in helping buyers find a working bred puppy.

 

Just - do you want us to buy working bred puppies or not? If so, the pups and information need to be easily accessible. If you don't do that, you sort of lose the right to complain when people default to pups from other sources, even if they're inferior.

 

I would have a better idea of where to find those pups NOW, but there's still even odds I couldn't get one - even from a Novice. I'll try - and if I can't (and I do mean after the legwork and waiting), I'll go back to a farm and get a pup from a litter that does useful farm work and has a good temperament and be done with it.

[Mark Billadeau]

Another issue in North America is the proximity of shepherds with working dogs to the general public as compared to the UK. It is very unlikley for someone in the general public to drive to the country and see large flocks of sheep and even rarer to see shepherds with dogs working those sheep. The general public is more likely to see Border Collies doing agility or frisbee than working livestock so why would they think stockdog when they see a Border Collie? Why would they think to get one from a farmer as opposed to that person running in agility or dazzling them with frisbee tricks?

 

As I see it, getting farmers to use dogs is a much better primary goal than getting the pet buyers to buy from working breeders. There are so many farmers here who use friends & family, or 4-wheelers, or other things to do the job of one dog. If we increased the adoption of dogs for the jobs they were developed to do, then pet buyers would more likely see them as stockdogs.

[mum24dog]

Not knowing our culture you would be unaware of the preception held by many here that imported dogs are better than those bred in North America. This is very evident in many North American breeder websites which tout that their lines are imported.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. I imagine someone who just wanted a pet could have got a similar superior feeling by buying from someone doing the touting without going to the expense of importing, but there are always people with money to burn I suppose.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Cpt Jack writes that advice to attend a trial was ineffective because she "found ONE trial in a neighboring state and nothing else."

 

I find this surprising since my trial ( first trial in the Virginia Triple crown) and Mark's Trial (Maryland) remain visible on this forum and four upcoming November Virginia trials are listed at http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html.

 

Attending trials, meeting the handlers and their dogs isn't easy in some parts of the country. In Virginia, it's a piece of cake.

 

Doanld McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

11 trials in VA & MD between now and the end of Feb

[mum24dog]

IMO Many of the main triallists in the UK (who are also shepherd/farmers) often keep relatively large kennels. They bring on several pups per year to train. Those started dogs that don't make their exacting standards and/ or suit their working style are sold on as started dogs to other triallists or to the farmng community ( who don't have the time &/or experience to start training a dog to work stock)

However, even with this turn-over many only produce a litter of their own every one to 2 years. The pups that many start are 'service pups' that they obtain in lieu of stud fees. Bringing up a litter takes time and money. As others have already said many only want to breed their own bitches infrequently.

JMO YMMV

I've loked at the breeding stats and just looking for names

I recognise it seems to vary greatly and depend how heavily into the dog side of the business an individual may be but in reality there are a lot of people breeding a very few to a moderate number of litters which keeps the supply flowing. If there are not many people involved and they only breed infrequently then unless the market is very small there is going to be a shortage.

[mum24dog]

Another issue in North America is the proximity of shepherds with working dogs to the general public as compared to the UK. It is very unlikley for someone in the general public to drive to the country and see large flocks of sheep and even rarer to see shepherds with dogs working those sheep. The general public is more likely to see Border Collies doing agility or frisbee than working livestock so why would they think stockdog when they see a Border Collie? Why would they think to get one from a farmer as opposed to that person running in agility or dazzling them with frisbee tricks?

Why would they if they never see working bred doing those things? And yet Root Beer identifies a willingness amongst sport people to consider working bred dogs.

 

As I see it, getting farmers to use dogs is a much better primary goal than getting the pet buyers to buy from working breeders. There are so many farmers here who use friends & family, or 4-wheelers, or other things to do the job of one dog. If we increased the adoption of dogs for the jobs they were developed to do, then pet buyers would more likely see them as stockdogs.

Absolutely, and the more people who work their dogs the more there are likely to breed - in theory at least. How would you go about trying to influence them? Are there likely to be enough dogs produced to supply them?

[Mark Billadeau]

Sport people are more dog savvy than the general public.

 

When we have sorted out the poor parking situtation for our trial my plan would be to invite farmers in our area who keep livestock so they have a chance to see what is possible with dogs.

[rwinner]

Back with more questions! So I did hear back from a couple of breeders, it just took awhile. One is having a litter the same time I would be able to get the puppy. My current problem is cost. Puppies from reputable breeders are just expensive (at least for our present situation). Why not wait and save/get a rescue? The dogs primary purpose will be to help me with an anxiety disorder. I am planning on training the pup to be a service animal. Whether I use it as a service animal will depend of course on the dogs temperament (one of the big reasons I want a puppy from a good breeder that I can bring up and socialize properly) and also on my current needs when the dog is trained (both me and my counselor feel I would greatly benefit from a service animal, but that need could change by the time it is trained and I would never want to abuse that privilege). My question is, does anyone have experience getting a farm dog that isnt necessarily from a well known breeder, but comes from working stock? Sometimes I see dogs like this listed on local classifieds that are less expensive. Of course you have to sift through them to weed out the ones bred from pet/sport breeders. Would this be a terrible idea for what I want from the dog?

 

I'm still going to the trial, but its mostly going to be her students competing, so may not be the best place to get breeder connections.

[Alchemist]

Mark (and others both on and off the BC Boards) also give sheepdog demonstrations - an invaluable lesson to the general public that "these are stockdogs", and (I hope) one that might influence farmers to use them for this purpose.

[Mark Billadeau]

We have been doing this as well for several years but will not in 2015 because the event is taking a year off.

[CMP]

*I know it's valid* ... but there is a cognitive disconnect with sheepdpg trialers showing farmers the way to using dogs.

 

Wow. Just wow. Only in (North) America could such a seemingly bizarre sentiment be expressed with so much confidence.

 

And be true.

 

That all said, I completely agree. Not that non-farmers who trial are the right folks to be championing the cause [1], but that (a) farmers need to be informed and ( those already using dogs need to become involved and stop being so insular and uppity about it all.

 

 

[1] But since they seem to be the only ones stepping up, it's a hard case to make.

[gcv-border]

Back with more questions! ....... The dogs primary purpose will be to help me with an anxiety disorder. I am planning on training the pup to be a service animal. Whether I use it as a service animal will depend of course on the dogs temperament (one of the big reasons I want a puppy from a good breeder that I can bring up and socialize properly)

 

 

If you plan to train a dog to be a service dog, a puppy may not be the best choice. There have been several past threads discussing why a rescue dog may be preferred over a puppy.

 

In short:

Rescue dog:

if at least 6-8 months old, adult size is known.

Personality is more of a known quantity. i.e. is the dog confident or fearful, does it WANT to work with you, etc. etc.

 

Puppy:

if the parents are known, adult size can be predicted (but the surprises can still appear)

Stable temperaments of the parents suggest same in the puppy, but again, it can still be a crap shoot.

Will it be confident and have the desire to work with you?

If this is your first dog/service dog, you are more likely to make mistakes that might render the pup less suitable for service. Not all dogs, even the best bred dogs, will make the grade as a service dog. Are you prepared for that?

 

Financials:

As I said in an earlier post (I think it was made the same day as the OP), a rescue dog (not pup) can be much less costly than a puppy once all the medical bills are factored in.

 

Is your counselor dog-savvy? Has s/he ever dealt with or trained a service dog before? Do other clients have service dogs? In other words, does s/he have any 'real world' experience with service dogs? - not just reading about it.

 

IDK, but to me, it is pretty clear that a rescue dog is more preferable - less money invested and a known quantity, BUT I would want to work with someone who knows how to evaluate dogs for service work before choosing a particular dog.

 

There are some board members here who have service dogs, and they can expound on the pros and cons of getting a puppy vs. a rescue and the required training. Hopefully they will put their 2 cents in.

[Maralynn]

Yes, it is possible to find a dog from a lesser known or farm breeder that is an all around great dog. But I would point out that if you're looking for a dog for a job, then it's better to spend a couple hundred dollars more upfront for a dog with the best potential. Especially going with an experienced breeder who can assist you in picking out a well suited pup. I spent a bit more than I was hoping to spend on my current youngster - would have loved to have found the perfect pup for $300-$400 but realistically I knew that would most likely not be the case. I wanted a SAR dog prospect and I wanted to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible. The pup I ended up with seemed highly likely to fit the bill. He's 7 m/o now and I couldn't be happier with how he is doing in training.

[GentleLake]

If I were looking for a rescue for a service dog prospect (and I probably would look to rescue before a breeder, unless I were getting a pup specifically bred to be a service dog -- and remember that they tend to be raised by families to a year or so old before going into training and ~80% of them wash out), I'd probably be looking for a young adult, about a year old.

 

You'll know much more about size, temperament and breed at that age than a 6 month old pup. As an example, a couple years ago I adopted a 6 m.o. pup who looked like a border collie. Spent an entire afternoon with her at a crowded rescue reunion. Temperament and socialization with both people and other dogs was important to me because I wanted another therapy dog. She seemed perfect at the time.

 

Brought her home and all was well for a couple months. She was much more active than I'd anticipated, but that wasn't a problem. Her developing reactivity to other dogs at a bout a year old was, though. And she turned out not to be a border collie but a lurcher (though probably still a border collie mix). Again, not so important, but the dog reactivity has nixed the deal, as has her very hard time with impulse control that leads her to jump up on people when greeting.

 

So I still don't have my next therapy dog . . . . and when I go looking again, I'll most likely be looking for a dog about a year or slightly older.

 

Service dogs provided by the large groups like Guiding Eyes and the like don't even begin training pups until they're a year old anyway. Sure, the families who raise them have guidelines for basic training to prepare them for their specific service dog training, but they're not considered mature enough or temperamentally stable enough to begin serious training until they're a year old. So there are many good reasons to look for a somewhat older dog through rescue.

 

Best wishes finding the perfect dog for you.

[CMP]

^^

 

This is very good advice, imo.

 

I train service dogs - have trained many of them over the years. Numbers below are based on my own personal experience and are rounded for easy math - but I believe them to be generally accurate.

 

Finding good service dogs prospect is not a job for sissies. As stated in the post above, you get a basic idea at about six months as to whether the dog is a very broad possibility. Well, more specifically, you can rule out some puppies by six months. What is left is a broad possibility. About 50% of all puppies in all breeds will fall off here at 6 months.

 

At a year you can have a better idea as to whether the temperament, physical soundness, inherent skill/instinct strengths and character of the dog will suffice. About 50% of all juveniles left will fall off here. So, we have 25% of the dog population left for service work. About the same percentage of people who *could* be teachers.

 

At 18 months 50% of those will have washed out due to some important failing. Almost always lack of patience and focus. This is where Border Collies, Tollers, GSDs, Labs and some hounds come in and why so many of them succeed: they have the focus of the working dog very much alive in them because their skills are still used and therefore still evolving and are active in the working gene pool.

 

So, 12.5% of all dogs are perfectly suited to service work. And let's say another 10% that are marginal and would suffice for many types of casual service work. And another 5% for dogs that are just outside of marginal but good enough for local/community SaR work. Matching up the small percentage of people who want service dogs and the small percentage of service dog prospects available is actually statistically unlikely. So it takes a lot of hard work and time and dedication.

 

Here is what I would do:

 

I would go rescue, absolutely. Unless you can afford to buy a new puppy every six months or year until you get one that is potentially right :/

 

I would not look at dogs any younger than 1 year nor any older than 18 months.

 

I would not look at any dogs that have been physically abused. Neglect is surmountable (and so is abuse, just less likely).

 

I would not look at any dogs that have ever suffered malnutrition.

 

 

Other than that, I would not worry about breed. There are oddballs in all breeds. Dumb border collies, brilliant beagles, chickenshit rotties and slow greyhounds. Find the right dog. Absolutely look for the right dog in the breed of your choice, but don't marry yourself to it if your real desire is a service dog.

 

 

YMMV.

 

And good luck! I am sure you can find what you want - just be patient and persistent

[Maralynn]

Those numbers quoted seem really high for washouts. If a service dog school is having 80% washout rates would have to wonder if there are issues with either their breeding program or training program. People who I know who train top level USAR dogs have closer to 80% *success* rate. One friend has trained five different dogs (three different breeds) each from different breeders and has certified 4 in USAR work and the fifth in wilderness SAR work. Penn Vet Working Dog Center seems to be having similar success - and they're using dontated pups of different breeds from different breeders.

[CMP]

I meant from dogs found in the general public/at rescues.

 

Dogs in a breeding program for service dogs have a much higher rate - the number of which I would not be qualified to even guess at.

 

Agreed.

 

Sorry if I was not clear.

[D'Elle]

To the OP -- I was going to write all of the reasons that you should *definitely* go with a rescue dog if you are going to be training the dog for service work......but CMP covered all of them, and has far better credentials than I have, since I have not trained service dogs.

I knew a woman who trained SAR dogs and *only* got her dogs from rescue, for all of the same reasons. Even the best bred puppy is something of a crap shoot in terms of where that dog's particular abilities will lie. With a rescue, carefully chosen, you have the best shot at the right kind of dog. And believe me, a year of age is still plenty young enough to train to be exactly the dog that you want if the dog has what it takes.