Advice needed! My dog attacked my arms last night

[geonni banner]

FWIW, CM's last name is spelled with 2 Ls.

 

As much as I hate to direct anyone to his website . . . http://www.cesarsway.com/

Ah, so. And I seem to have an extra "a" in his first name. Perhaps that's because I immediately saw him as a "natural pack-leader."

[Shetlander]

Ah, so. And I seem to have an extra "a" in his first name. Perhaps that's because I immediately saw him as a "natural pack-leader."

I seem to recall a number of Julius Caesar's pack turned on him in the end.

 

Sorry...couldn't resist. ;-)

[GentleLake]

^^ ROTFL!

[mum24dog]

 

Unsurprisingly he doesn't understand sheepdogs because he doesn't understand sheep.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Interesting excuse for CM's incompetence. I haven't heard that one before.

 

I wonder what the many, many people who have trained and rehabilitated BCs while knowing little or nothing about sheep would think of your statement. Understanding dogs and treating them as individuals seems to work for them ime.

[CMP]

^^

 

On the surface, that is perfectly reasonable. At a base level this is what is required to deal well with every dog, regardless of the breed.

 

That said, to truly understand any animal who has a genetic legacy related to a specific task/job/skill you DO need to understand that task/job/skill and the associated collateral components.

 

My Berners act certain ways because of their genetic legacy of pulling little milk carts in the mountains - they have a slow, patient, wait for you stoicism that makes more sense if you understand from whence they come.

 

My hounds make more sense if you understand the way they hunt and the way their prey responds to them - it informs their responses to things.

 

My Scotties make more sense if you understand they were ground vermin hunters.

 

When the BC puppy tries to herd the wheelbarrow it's not just a puppy who needs to be taught to stay away from the front of things - it's a puppy who needs to be taught to repress an instinct and use it in a different way - and it DOES make a difference how you handle such things.

 

YMMV of course - but the statement that CM does not understand sheepdogs because he does not understand sheep is at least as accurate as it is blunt.

[Maxi]

^^ to my mind CMP makes a very interesting and important point about considering the instinct that has been preferentially selected for (or even enhanced) in different dog breeds..

 

I can't comment about Mr Millan's work in general because I haven't seen his programmes or read his books. However, when I read Mr McCaig's words about sheepdogs, I thought he was refering to training dogs who would work with sheep and not BCs in general. If my interpretation of this was correct, then based on my own personal experience I would completely agree that you cannot train a working sheepdog to any standard without understanding sheep.

 

YMMV

[mum24dog]

Rabbits run or go to ground. That's pretty much all I needed to know to handle my lurcher, my terrier and my mongrel. No need to get inside the mind of the rabbit.

 

Scent hounds track. All I needed to know to train my hound mix.

 

Most sheep flock for safety and collies were bred to encourage that behaviour by acting as pseudo predators. That's about it really if you don't have an interest in sheep. Let's not make it more complicated than it is.

 

If you have any interest in dogs at all it's almost impossible not to assimilate that level of knowledge without even trying.

 

The likelihood is that CM doesn't understand collies because he doesn't do even basic homework or understand that dogs differ greatly whether because of breeding or temperament, not because he isn't an expert on sheep.

[CMP]

The likelihood is that CM doesn't understand collies because he doesn't do even basic homework or understand that dogs differ greatly whether because of breeding or temperament, not because he isn't an expert on sheep.

Well, you may be right. We're all guessing, anyway

 

That said, I'm older and have had many dogs and am a breeder of two breeds. It is my distinct experience that understanding the behaviors related to the specific function the dog has been bred to perform will assist you in training them.

 

I cannot imagine one could argue with that. Not to say they are not trainable without foreknowledge, but they are easier to train and the training is more likely to be successful if you understand WHAT the dog's specific behaviors are about.

 

You can leave a BC in a field with some sheep, tell him to watch those sheep - and he will. This is a bred-for characteristic. No rabbit hound of my acquaintance could be convinced to wait for the rabbits to form into a little group or watch them for a few hours without chasing them. Both characteristics are bred for - both contribute a GREAT deal to the trainability and the personality of the dog.

 

For instance, you can leave the BC near the open bag of food and tell him to watch it, not to eat it and not to touch it. They can be trained to do that. You could NOT train a rabbit hound to do that. Or I could not - maybe some people could :/ I would not bother trying.

 

Since sheepdogs have, arguably, the most complex of the tasks specific to *breeds*, it stands to reason that their behaviours are, likewise, fairly complex in context. Extrapolating further, it stands to reason that the knowledge of that task is actually an important part of training sheepdogs - and for the final extrapolation - a BC IS a sheepdog. So, you need to understand a little bit about what their instincts are about to even train them to be pets. To train them to do their jobs - yeah, you have to know the job.

 

Interesting discussion, at any rate.

[Mom of Mya]

Very interesting read. I will say one thing for Cesar Millan and that is at least he is using his celebrity standing to help save the pitbull. No i don't want to start another argument or discussion about pitbulls (which here has a lot of dogs included in this breed, boxers, staffies, etc. I don't think I have ever seen an aggressive boxer). No I do not believe just anyone should have one, no I do not believe just anyone should breed them, but NO I do not believe any breed of dog for any reason should be put down at the rate of 2000 dogs a day because of human stupidity.

 

I admit I am not a trainer, just tried to work with my own pets for my home only so I am not qualified probably to jump in on some of the rest of the arguments. Mya has nipped me and brought blood several times over the last year, mostly when we are playing and she jumped for the toy and missed or she and I both went for the toy and she got there first because she is faster, and I admit I probably should have calmed her down before that point so it is my error as much as hers. But she knew immediately when she did it and stopped immediately and even came over and licked where she bit and then put herself in a down position. I do not consider that this made her an aggressive dog or a biter and she and I moved on. Now that she is a year old she seems to be watching how she jumps for the toy more when we are playing and even on a toy I can say easy and you can see her jaw relax immediately.

 

I guess i just don't see where I would have the need to grab her by the scruff of the neck, and I hope I never have too.

[sandysfarm]

yeah, I'd agree with CMP here. CM has a one size fits all approach to what he calls dog rehabilitation. Lots of positive reinforcement trainers do too though, i.e. their game plan doesn't vary much dog by dog. The difference being, I think, that CM's approach is all about CM, developed by him for him and, turns out, it works well on TV - (yeah, I know). I love watching their faces when he starts telling the dog parents what's the matter and how he's fixing it - nobody can follow the patter and jargon but nobody 's gonna admit it lest he poke more fun at them with his teeth clenching and eye rolling.

BUT, the man moves like a panther among his dogs. He's a total natural, all grace and watchfulness. He's not coming near my dogs but when he's on the screen I can't take my eyes off of him.

[GentleLake]

It's interesting to me when threads come together.

 

Here we were talking about Cesar Millan. Another thread announcing the untimely death of the renowned veterinarian and behaviorist Dr. Sophia Yin linked to an article where she was quoted talking about Mr. Millan.

 

One of Dr. Yin's great contributions was to develop techniques for restraining animals in anxiety producing situations like visits to the vet's and groomer.

 

Yin says Cesar Millan, TV’s ‘dog whisperer’ seems to have success by forcing the dogs in what he calls submission. Yin says too many veterinary professionals and groomers use the same techniques every day. Yin concedes she once did too, “It’s what I was taught, and I didn’t know any better than using force," she says. "For us, at that time, what mattered is that we were able to get the procedure completed.”

 

Yin continues, “What he (Millan) says he does is to make himself a pack leader. That’s not the case. What he’s really doing (called learned helplessness) is like if you’re afraid of spiders and freaking out because they’re all around you. But you’re being forcibly restrained. You finally realize you are helpless; you can’t do a thing about it. You finally give up. But that doesn’t mean you are any less anxious. In fact, you are likely to be more afraid. Forcible techniques don’t help, except to intensify fear. The goal is to implement techniques help to make the pet more secure.” (http://www.chicagonow.com/steve-dales-pet-world/2014/09/dr-sophia-yins-loss-is-profound/)

 

I wonder whose legacy will be the most enduring and ultimately help the most pets (or even just the most dogs, since Millan focuses solely on dogs AFAIK).

 

I know who I vote for.

[sandysfarm]

It's not just CM. Vets' offices have been very slow to adopt to anything other than physical coercion in their day to day dealings with (your) animal. This is because it's faster to have a tech table-place, gather and bear down on a frightened dog who needs a physical exam, times fifteen a day, maybe. In the back, there's often casual pushing and shoving, into cages, into baths, onto tables. If your dog hates going to the vet, does it correlate to the number of times you 've been asked to " just wait, we'll bring him right back to you "? Older, more acquiescent people often have really nervous "vetty" dogs while those who insist that the dog stays handled by them no.matter.what. often have dogs who calmy march in the front doors.

[gcv-border]

It's not just CM. Vets' offices have been very slow to adopt to anything other than physical coercion in their day to day dealings with (your) animal. This is because it's faster to have a tech table-place, gather and bear down on a frightened dog who needs a physical exam, times fifteen a day, maybe. In the back, there's often casual pushing and shoving, into cages, into baths, onto tables. If your dog hates going to the vet, does it correlate to the number of times you 've been asked to " just wait, we'll bring him right back to you "? Older, more acquiescent people often have really nervous "vetty" dogs while those who insist that the dog stays handled by them no.matter.what. often have dogs who calmy march in the front doors.

Yeah - and this is exactly why I started a topic a while back about my dislike of the vets who "bring the dog into the back".

[CMP]

Yeah - and this is exactly why I started a topic a while back about my dislike of the vets who "bring the dog into the back".

Nobody takes my dogs to the back unless they are about to perform surgery and even then I want to sit outside the OR door and wait. I trust my vet(s) and have selected them based on a shared belief system, but in the same way I would not have let a frightened child be marched into a dentist's office "to the back" without me, I am the same about my dogs.

[GentleLake]

Vets' offices have been very slow to adopt to anything other than physical coercion in their day to day dealings with (your) animal.

 

Yep. Another reason why Dr. Yin's loss is so tragic. She did many seminars for veterinarians teaching them less stressful ways to restrain animals. I sincerely hope someo0ne will continue to do that educational work in her stead.

 

I don't like my dogs to be taken into the back without me there either. If they want to do the restraining, that's OK, but I want to at least be in the room to see what they're doing, and to reassure the dog that I haven't abandoned her or him. Of course, I've worked with my dogs so that they're OK with being handled and restrained, and my vet hands out so many high value treats that they're thrilled to be handled there.

[sandysfarm]

As long as they know you're not clueless or a helicoptering nutcase, they usually give in and let clients attend. (But I have to say I've seen clinics that look ok up front and way too grubby in back, so maybe there's more than one reason.). As a trainer, I cringe when somebody says to me "well, I trained it this way because my vet said to"

[D'Elle]

It's interesting to me when threads come together.

 

Here we were talking about Cesar Millan. Another thread announcing the untimely death of the renowned veterinarian and behaviorist Dr. Sophia Yin linked to an article where she was quoted talking about Mr. Millan.

 

One of Dr. Yin's great contributions was to develop techniques for restraining animals in anxiety producing situations like visits to the vet's and groomer.

 

Yin says Cesar Millan, TV’s ‘dog whisperer’ seems to have success by forcing the dogs in what he calls submission. Yin says too many veterinary professionals and groomers use the same techniques every day. Yin concedes she once did too, “It’s what I was taught, and I didn’t know any better than using force," she says. "For us, at that time, what mattered is that we were able to get the procedure completed.”

 

Yin continues, “What he (Millan) says he does is to make himself a pack leader. That’s not the case. What he’s really doing (called learned helplessness) is like if you’re afraid of spiders and freaking out because they’re all around you. But you’re being forcibly restrained. You finally realize you are helpless; you can’t do a thing about it. You finally give up. But that doesn’t mean you are any less anxious. In fact, you are likely to be more afraid. Forcible techniques don’t help, except to intensify fear. The goal is to implement techniques help to make the pet more secure.” (http://www.chicagonow.com/steve-dales-pet-world/2014/09/dr-sophia-yins-loss-is-profound/)

 

I wonder whose legacy will be the most enduring and ultimately help the most pets (or even just the most dogs, since Millan focuses solely on dogs AFAIK).

 

I know who I vote for.

 

Me too.