Advice needed! My dog attacked my arms last night

[geonni banner]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Alchemist writes: "All of my dogs' body parts belong to ME. I can touch any of them when I please, WHERE I please. Rub their chests when they're eating their kibble, pull their butt hairs when they're looking at kids throwing frisbees if they ignore my calling their names, pick up their feet to trim their claws... there are NO circumstances when I feel it's OK for them to tell me "hands off!!!"

 

Many years ago, my first sheepdog Pip had just come in from rainy, manurey work, been hosed off and toweled but was clearly pretty miserable. He collapsed on a blanket on the bed where my wife woke him with a hug. Pip bit her face. As we discovered the next morning, his 12 year old body was shot through with cancer and we had him killed.

 

In pain, did Pip have a right to bite? If your dog is hit by a car, might he snap at the person picking him up? Ever break up a dog fight? Unbitten?

 

Dogs are dogs before they're Our Dogs. Forget at your peril.

 

Donald McCaig

Yes. My dog's body belongs to her. If I want to be able to handle any part of it anytime, I need to spend time teaching her that. And even at that, there are some circumstances when instinct/pain/fear will override training. That's what doG made muzzles for.

 

CMP says:

"I don't think you ought to do anything to an animal that is essentially a predator to purposefully arouse a startle reflex - such as clapping hands loudly behind them when they are clearly hyper-focused on something else. Take the three steps and get in front of them and demand their attention. It takes more time to work out a "way we will be" agreement with your dog, but it is SO well worth it. If you startle and humiliate them too often, you *will* alter how they face the world - and that doesn't seem likely to be a positive change.

 

Sometimes, someone has to be boss and have the hammer. Of course, I get that. I am always the boss and it is never in question - or not for long. But between those moments when someone has to decide how things will be getting done, I prefer it that we have a working arrangement that suits us both. I'm not fussy about things like where they sleep or how they guard their bones and I don't expect instant response to every command unless we are working and even then I trust they will have a reason to delay and I should hate to think an over-insistence on absolute obedience would alter the way they worked.

 

I know some people are very alarmed by the touching of canine teeth to sacred human skin - but sometimes they just revert, instinctively to being what they are and we all have to accept that when we welcome them into our lives. Not to say we should encourage biting, but I think we generally make too much of situations such as this one that appears to make a case in point for "sometimes the dog just comes out"."

 

Hear, hear. I don't care how many certificates a person has, they can't make a dog anything but a dog. They may or may not be well-educated, devoted to dogs and/or good trainers. But a dog's instincts cannot be eradicated.

 

A dog who has it's eye on something it wants, it's mind on getting it, and it's back to the (for the moment - largely forgotten) owner, is grabbed by the back. This startles and perhaps hurts the dog - surprise has a way of magnifying the sensation of pain. Dog's instincts kick in and it whirls and snaps. Owner's arm is in the way.

 

Unfortunate? Yes. Avoidable? Sure, most of the time - provided both parties are either armed beforehand with practice aimed at dealing with such an eventuality, or just a bit less reactive. Yes. The dog reacted to being grabbed. The owner reacted to seeing a bug about to meet it's maker. Poor judgement? Probably. Whose fault was it? Irrelevant.

 

I don't see that a behaviorist is called for here. The OP understands, at least she seems to, what happened. And there is plenty of good information on the subject online and in print.

[rushdoggie]

y problem is with overprescription -- the knee-jerk recommendation, anytime someone posts that their dog "showed aggression," that a professional behaviorist should be brought in. It's almost like "You say you've coughed three times in the last three months? It could be nothing, but it could be lung cancer, there's no way to know via the internet, and it's better to err on the side of caution and therefore you should find a pulmonologist and have a chest x-ray and a complete workup."

Respectfully, I will say I disagree with that analogy.

 

A better one would be:

 

"you have coughed intermittently for the past few months? A few times you coughed up a little bloody mucous? And now you suddenly coughed up a lot of blood? I will recommend you bypass the nurse practitioner at the drugstore kiosk, the nutritionist and no I don't think you should take some of your Uncle Bob's old antibiotics because he had a cough and now its better, I think you should see a doctor in a clinic where you can have an xray and blood work right away instead."

 

Maybe it will turn out that what you described would be a bloody scab from a mouth sore and we are not speaking the same language about "coughing up." Maybe you will just have a cold. But ignoring it or just pasting a band aid on it is probably not the best course because it could turn into pneumonia or lung cancer.

 

Maybe that nurse practitioner or the nutritionist is awesome and savvy and pays better attention than a doctor (because they often are), but maybe they are not. And if they come personally recommended and we have faith in them that they see issues and know when to send you to the MD thats awesome. Go for it.

 

Anyone can call themselves a trainer. There is no licensing and many certifications are imo less than helpful.

 

And again, sometimes spending money on other options to end up at the behaviorist anyways will cost someone more in the long run.

 

Its not "knee jerk" really: in my case, its many years of seeing people who have dogs with serious issues that have an underlying medical component or continue to get worse over time who end up biting someone seriously. I have said the story before of my MIL whose doxie had resource guarding issues that were ignored and then ineffectually treated by first a big box pet store trainer, then a franchise e collar trainer (before I married her son and had knowledge of this). He eventually guarded a dead animal in the yard that no one knew he had, and bit my MIL very, very badly and then redirected on their other dog. Had he had help before it got that bad hopefully it wouldn't have come to that.

 

So when I suggest a dog be checked at a vet, and consider a behavioral consult I don't do it without reason.

 

I'm sure we could all agree that there are dog trainers who fall into this category. Why should the same not be true of behavioral consultants? That doesn't mean you should never consult a doctor or a lawyer or a trainer or a veterinary behaviorist. It just means that there are risks in doing so, and it's silly to do so when there's no apparent need.

 

Thank you for this clarification, it helps me understand your POV better. I guess mine is I have met more unskilled and potential danger from un-certified behaviorists. I also don't see this is a DIY issue anymore or one that should be ignored (for many reasons that I have already stated so I won't repeat myself.).

 

Hopefully, she won't be put off by this difference of opinion, and hopefully she'll read both views and take the advice that will turn out best for her.

Completely agreed.

[Shetlander]

Now the trainer the OP used may be excellent at dealing with the practical aspects of a behavioural issue. But, personally, IMO if someone told me that the problem with my dog was his low EQ level then I think I'd run a mile because it sounds too much like psychobable and as if someone is trying to find an excuse in advance as to why they may not be able to sort the underlying problem.

 

Probably because I work in the mental health field, I wouldn’t head for the hills because of a term like EQ, even though it isn’t a term I use myself. I look at it as a sort of shorthand and hopefully it came with an explanation of what the trainer meant by the expression. My experience is some dogs do not do a good job picking up or paying attention to other dogs’ “social cues,” body language, calming signals, whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, I would listen to what else the trainer had to say about the situation before dismissing them as not being any potential help

 

I don't think I have a hair trigger response to getting a trainer involved. I may be a bit proactive about getting my vet involved. Everyone has their level of comfort and as has been pointed out, none of us know this dog, every detail of the biting incident or his relationship with the OP. I just know that if one of my dogs bit me and it wasn't a situation like a dog I had who was very old and senile that sometimes bit if startled, I would be first ruling out a physical cause. Then I would look at what I thought I needed to do differently regarding training and management, probalby post here for feedback and decide whether I wanted some outside assistance. I just don't see getting nailed by my dog to the point of blood being a small thing. But that is me and my dogs.

[Mom of Mya]

I don't know if I am reading this correctly but did the dog not know it had done wrong, sent itself to its crate and came and tried to make up later by coming to her. It seems that the handler is afraid of their own dog here, just my take on it, and I think definitely needs some help with that. Maybe the dog was feeding on of the handler's emotions of fear when it bit after being grabbed. Too many variables but it sounds like maybe both the dog and the handler need a fresh set of eyes (whether that be trainer, vet or behaviorist) to help identify what may or may not be going on there between the two and help correct it. It seems like the handler should have done something (I am not sure what) when the dog put itself into the crate and then tried to make up later and was ignored. I am not sure ignoring the situation would be the way to deal with it. But i also don't think I would have put myself in the middle just to save a bug (that may sound harsh) but Mya plays with out crickets all the time. Their jumping seems to fascinate her.

[HJTRAS]

That dog is beautiful That blue eye is intimidating love that picture.

[sandysfarm]

 

My question [emphasis added] was directed at another poster who said that we on the Boards would be offering the OP advice on finding appropriate training.

 

I suppose it's always a good idea for anyone to be familiar with laws that are applicable to their location. Can't really disagree with that. Certainly much more useful than familiarizing themselves with laws that are applicable to a faraway location.

 

 

I guess I misunderstood your point. I thought you were saying that because some jurisdictions (e.g., New York) can require evaluation by a behaviorist or other expert in situations like this, your suggestion to consult a behaviorist was reasonable. I therefore asked whether, by the same reasoning, the fact that some jurisdictions can require euthanasia in situations like this would mean that a suggestion to euthanize would be reasonable. But perhaps my question/comment was too convoluted. Yes, definitely, awareness of the laws that apply in the jurisdiction where one lives is a good thing, and had that been what you said, I would not have disagreed.

 

 

 

 

maybe these side trips should be by PM. They are exhausting to weed through.

[D'Elle]

I find it very unfortunate, and sad, that anyone thinks that they OWN all parts of their dog's body. To me, this indicates a lack of respect for the fact that the dog is an autonomous animal, who should be treated with respect. That doesn't mean that I am subservient to my dogs, or that they get to boss me around. But it also doesn't mean that I think I can do whatever I want with their bodies any time without approaching them with all due protocol and respect and, more importantly, having first trained them thoroughly in the manner in which our relationship is to be handled, and not to be fearful of my handling their bodies as needed.

 

Jester hates to be taken by the collar. I can do it, but I will not do it unless necessary, and then I will approach him slowly and I will be telling him what I am going to do. It is very rarely needed, so I don't do it, knowing he hates it. If a stranger simply grabbed him by the collar, he might bite them. Does that make him a dangerous dog, who needs a behavior professional? I say no. He just needs to be treated respectfully, and I submit that all dogs should be treated with respect and no one should think that they "own" their dog's body.

 

As for behavior or training professionals, I agree wholeheartedly with Eileen, who never said she had anything against them, but cautioned that just because someone has "credentials" doesn't mean he or she is a good trainer. Not to open up that can of worms, but Cesar Milan, for example, has lots of "credentials" and I suspect that most of us here wouldn't allow that man to step foot on our property, let alone touch our dogs. I know I wouldn't.

 

I also, on more than one occasion, have been called in to help someone with a problem with their dog, and had that person describe what a "Professional Behaviorist" did to their dog, and been utterly horrified and not the least surprised that the behavior got worse after that treatment, or was replaced by a different and equally difficult pattern of behavior. There are great professionals, of course. And there are very bad ones. It simply pays to be very cautious and not blinded by a string of letters after someone's name. Personal recommendations for a trainer from people you know well are the best idea.

 

I agree that is it unwise to grab an excited and/or focused dog from behind or anywhere else, for that matter. The one exception that I know of is that I have more than once broken up a dogfight by grabbing the hind legs of one dog and lifting him up on the ground. Now, I will hasten to say that I am fully prepared to be bitten if I do that, unless I can release the dog quickly enough and get out of the way. And I won't do it unless other ways of breaking up the fight have failed. (I have not been bitten, doing this, but there's always a first time. I hope, of course, that I never have to do it again.)

 

When I had had Jes for only about three weeks, he bit me. It was a misunderstanding on his part, and he immediately knew it, and we worked it out. It actually ended up being an amazing communication and bonding experience for us (not that I recommend it as a method). It would have been a huge and highly unfortunate mistake on my part to have taken that incident too seriously, or to have interpreted it as aggression on his part. I feel it is very important to take each bite incident independently, and examine it extremely thoroughly, as if it were a crime scene and you were a CSI expert - leaving no detail unexamined. sometimes it is simple, sometimes complex. But we do our dogs a terrible disservice if we just jump to a conclusion about what happened in their minds or what the reason was for the bite.

 

Finally, to respond to this:

 

FWIW: Maybe its just where I live, but a consult with the vet behaviorist which is a couple of hours and includes several months of follow up on the phone and email (and because he is a vet covers health concerns and a physical) actually costs a little less overall than some trainers initial packages.

 

So, I don't think its quite as overkill cost wise as many suggest.

 

I think whether or not the cost is too much is a lot more dependent on an individual's finances than this suggests. What RushDoggie is describing above could cost several hundred dollars, which some people simply may not be able to afford.

 

If a person can do the training him- or herself, to me that is always the best, because it gives the human being previously unknown skills, and strengthens the bond between the dog and the person.

[Maxi]

^^^this. Well said D'Elle

[rushdoggie]

Jester hates to be taken by the collar. I can do it, but I will not do it unless necessary, and then I will approach him slowly and I will be telling him what I am going to do. It is very rarely needed, so I don't do it, knowing he hates it. If a stranger simply grabbed him by the collar, he might bite them. Does that make him a dangerous dog, who needs a behavior professional? I say no. He just needs to be treated respectfully, and I submit that all dogs should be treated with respect and no one should think that they "own" their dog's body.

 

Sure, but this was not a stranger, it was his owner, and it wasn't during a dog fight, it was while he was chasing a bug.

 

In my eyes, large red flags.

 

My dog would bite a stranger who grabbed him, he would not bite me.

As for behavior or training professionals, I agree wholeheartedly with Eileen, who never said she had anything against them, but cautioned that just because someone has "credentials" doesn't mean he or she is a good trainer. Not to open up that can of worms, but Cesar Milan, for example, has lots of "credentials" and I suspect that most of us here wouldn't allow that man to step foot on our property, let alone touch our dogs. I know I wouldn't.

Actually he doesn't. In fact he brags that he has no formal training or credentials and that he is self taught.

 

Which is, kind of my point.

 

There are "credentials" and there are credentials. I have seen time and time again on these boards where someone suggested a professional how they explained the difference and recommended those certified by the IAABC or the Animal Behavior Society.

 

I also, on more than one occasion, have been called in to help someone with a problem with their dog, and had that person describe what a "Professional Behaviorist" did to their dog, and been utterly horrified and not the least surprised that the behavior got worse after that treatment, or was replaced by a different and equally difficult pattern of behavior. There are great professionals, of course. And there are very bad ones.

 

And did you have knowledge of that "Professional Behaviorists" credentials? or was it hearsay? Because one of the reasons I suggest the organizations outlined above is that I have never heard of someone credentialed by them doing anything dangerous or outwardly stupid they way I have heard of many "dog trainers" doing things.

 

And no one here disagreed with the idea it pays to be cautious (in fact, I feel like that was exactly what I was saying?) and get referrals.

. I feel it is very important to take each bite incident independently, and examine it extremely thoroughly, as if it were a crime scene and you were a CSI expert - leaving no detail unexamined. sometimes it is simple, sometimes complex. But we do our dogs a terrible disservice if we just jump to a conclusion about what happened in their minds or what the reason was for the bite.

 

Yes, and the OP described a skin breaking bite incident from her own dog who she has had for a long time, and describes past issues that also send up red flags that there may be a more serious issue here. Based on that, I suggested it was not a DIY issue and recommened professional

I think whether or not the cost is too much is a lot more dependent on an individual's finances than this suggests. What RushDoggie is describing above could cost several hundred dollars, which some people simply may not be able to afford.

 

If a person can do the training him- or herself, to me that is always the best, because it gives the human being previously unknown skills, and strengthens the bond between the dog and the person.

 

When working with a professional you do in fact do your own training, you just do it under the guidance of someone who can help you. And yes of course, it may end up costing money. Its likely every trainer will charge money for their skills, whether its a person who trains on livestock or a veterinary behaviorist. And yes of course, cost may be a barrier but that does not mean it is for everyone. And again, it will vary for where you live, but in many cases "dog trainers" with dubious "credentials" will actually cost more than the veterinary behaviorist.

[Shetlander]

I find it very unfortunate, and sad, that anyone thinks that they OWN all parts of their dog's body. To me, this indicates a lack of respect for the fact that the dog is an autonomous animal, who should be treated with respect. That doesn't mean that I am subservient to my dogs, or that they get to boss me around. But it also doesn't mean that I think I can do whatever I want with their bodies any time without approaching them with all due protocol and respect and, more importantly, having first trained them thoroughly in the manner in which our relationship is to be handled, and not to be fearful of my handling their bodies as needed.

I totally agree that dogs need to be treated with respect and trained to be comfortable with handling they might otherwise find stressful. In addition, I try not to make my dogs worry about things like me taking their food from them. Because they have no need to guard food from me, I can snatch food out of their reach or even grab it from their mouths (only if I saw it as dangerous for them) without worry of being bitten. With toys, they release them immediately to me from all the play and trading we have done. Earlier today, I dropped a piece of onion with sauce on the floor and my feisty Lhasa was immediately checking it out. I put my foot over it, nudging his nose out of the way, telling him to leave it. He hovered until I removed the temptation, but offered no objection. I also make sure my dogs are comfortable with my feet being near, under or on them.

 

I think that is why I would be so surprised I received a hard bite or anything other than an over-enthusiastic nip in play from a dog I considered well bonded. And why I would not take it lightly.

 

As an aside, I think many, if not most, trainers instruct the owners how to train and do little beyond demonstrating techniques with the dog. The trainer I consulted explained and then observed and provided feedback as I implemented her recommendations. It is pretty obvious that if the owner doesn't figure out how to effectively communicate with their dog, the trainer will not be successful in their work.

[D'Elle]

RushDoggie, I don't know why you feel the need to argue with what I said.....I was not intending to start an argument and am not interested in engaging in one.

[GentleLake]

I find it very unfortunate, and sad, that anyone thinks that they OWN all parts of their dog's body. To me, this indicates a lack of respect for the fact that the dog is an autonomous animal, who should be treated with respect. That doesn't mean that I am subservient to my dogs, or that they get to boss me around. But it also doesn't mean that I think I can do whatever I want with their bodies any time without approaching them with all due protocol and respect and, more importantly, having first trained them thoroughly in the manner in which our relationship is to be handled, and not to be fearful of my handling their bodies as needed.

 

I totally agree with this. I was actually pretty saddened to read the comment about someone "owning" all parts of her(?) dog.

 

Cesar Milan, for example, has lots of "credentials"

 

Cesar Millan has absolutely no credentials whatsoever, and he's up front about that. His expertise is all in his own mind.

 

There are way too many people out there like him masquerading as people who know what they're doing.

[geonni banner]

Meh. There's broken skin and broken skin. My dog has broken skin on my hand/arm twice because I stupidly, out of sheer clumsiness, stuck my hand in her mouth when we were horsing around with a stuffie. My dog has never bitten me or anyone else since I've had her. If you stick your hand in the mouth of a dog that is flailing around for whatever reason, there is a chance you will come away with a bloody hand. Carnivore teeth are sharp.

 

Both incidents were because of my clumsyness. Both time I yipped - because it stung - both times the dog ended the game and came to me, all contrition, and washed my "boo-boo" with her tongue.

 

If I were to do something to my dog that frightened her, hurt her or just startled her suddenly, I would think I was running the risk of a reflex bite. No harm - no foul. I would respond with a cry of pain. Intentionally - even if the bite didn't hurt that much. My dog respects me. She knows I'm in charge. She would show appropriate submissive behavior. No need the call out the Marines.

 

The OP's dog has never bitten another human. Ordinary work on tactile stimulation, resource guarding, and sensible handling is all this dog needs. Good books abound on the subject. JMHO. YMMV.

[Shetlander]

It is always so interesting to see the different viewpoints on topics like this. And of course only the OP knows what/how bad the bite was. Quinn has nicked my skin a few times playing tug and earned the correction of all fun and attention stopping for 10-15 seconds. Torture! And he learned to be more careful of fragile human skin even when he was very wound up and determined to get that tug for himself.

 

Through massive stupidity, I earned a bite from my Lhasa two days after I met him. He was very upset. I was trying to calm him while holding him. He looked me in the eyes, turned his head and bit my hand hard enough to make it bleed. He didn't have a bond with me at the time. I deserved that bite even if my stupidity was well intentioned. Now that he knows and trusts me, I can hold him when he is upset and struggling. While he puts on an impressive show, there is no biting.

 

In the right (wrong) circumstances, I agree any dog can bite, even the owner they are well bonded to. I just am surprised that so many seem think it is normal or no big deal for a dog to reflexively bite an owner he has lived with for years. Dogs seem to have a pretty good understanding of how to use their teeth in different situations. Playing bitey face with a pal. Not biting the toy so close to their person's fingers (good boy, Quinn). Fighting for real with a foe. Etc.

 

Maybe I have just been very lucky? Hope I'm not jinxing myself and one of the dogs bites me tomorrow. I do appreciate this discussion and the various opinions.

[rushdoggie]

RushDoggie, I don't know why you feel the need to argue with what I said.....I was not intending to start an argument and am not interested in engaging in one.

 

I am certainly not trying to start an argument with anyone, just provide an alternate viewpoint during a open discussion on a message board.

 

No offense meant. Not sure why you singled me out.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Several here have taken a passing shot at Cesar Milan. I've seen him train. His body language is similar to Jack Knox's: expressive and prompt. Whatever one thinks of his marketing, he is a superb natural dog trainer.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Dear Doggers,

 

Several here have taken a passing shot at Cesar Milan. I've seen him train. His body language is similar to Jack Knox's: expressive and prompt. Whatever one thinks of his marketing, he is a superb natural dog trainer.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Holly the lab would beg to differ.

 

 

 

[GentleLake]

Yes, Holly and the Jindo and a few others.

 

With Holly in particular, not only did Millan provoke the bite himself, but he was clueless enough to say he didn't see it coming! I'm no expert in dogs' body language, but I saw it coming long before the dog actually bit.

 

Don't get me wrong, Millan does have some very good advice to offer. But he reminds me of the nursery rhyme my mother used to recite to me:

 

There was a little girl

who had a little curl

right in the middle of her forehead.

When she was good

she was very very good,

but when she was bad she was horrid.

The problem is that Millan is all too often horrid.

 

To compare him to Jack Knox is a colossal insult to Jack, imo.

[Blackdawgs]

Holly the Lab:

 

[Maralynn]

Getting back to the idea of "owning" a dog's body. I don't think I have free rein to do whatever, but I do think I should be able to do a variety of handling and, yes, even some unpleasent but needed things with my dogs without ruining a relationship. I train them, handle them, teach them what to expect. This makes it easier for me and anyone else who has to handle them down the road. When I took my first two in for any sort of vet visit in their later years I got rave reviews on how good they were. I don't have the time or money to take them to someone else to do anything they might find to be unpleasent. With this I also understand that dogs will be dogs and that their communication to me means something and I adjust, train, handle accordingly.

[D'Elle]

Getting back to the idea of "owning" a dog's body. I don't think I have free rein to do whatever, but I do think I should be able to do a variety of handling and, yes, even some unpleasent but needed things with my dogs without ruining a relationship. I train them, handle them, teach them what to expect. This makes it easier for me and anyone else who has to handle them down the road. When I took my first two in for any sort of vet visit in their later years I got rave reviews on how good they were. I don't have the time or money to take them to someone else to do anything they might find to be unpleasent. With this I also understand that dogs will be dogs and that their communication to me means something and I adjust, train, handle accordingly.

 

Very good point made here, about the importance of the dog's communication to us, and also training the dog to accept handling from others as well. The relationship between me and my dogs is a two way street and I listen to what they are telling me as well as expecting them to listen to me. Sadly, I think that too many people do all the talking and don't listen. You can learn a lot by listening to a dog.

 

Some horse trainers imprint on a new born foal within the first ten minutes, touching the foal on every part of its body and gently massaging in each place until the foal relaxes. I am told that this can go a long way toward making the horse amenable to handling as the foal grows up. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

The fact is that our animals must be handled in many ways; it is part of taking care of them. If they are not trained or conditioned to accept that it will make their lives more difficult and stressful. When Boo came to me he was terrified of being brushed, possibly because at the shelter they had simply held him down and shaved the mats off his body under his protests. It took me a couple of weeks to get him to accept being groomed, but now he comes running when he sees the brush because he knows I will not hurt him and he will earn a biscuit. Since he is a breed that has to be brushed daily and fully groomed monthly, the investment of my time was more than worth it, and if he ever needed to be professionally groomed he would be good about it.

 

As for C. Milan.....I guess I was aware, come to think of it, that he doesn't have official credentials. I was not very clear in what I said at all, because what I meant was that he has "credentials" in that people think that he is an expert, when in my opinion he is an idiot who brutalizes dogs and makes money from it, which I find despicable.

[mum24dog]

As for C. Milan.....I guess I was aware, come to think of it, that he doesn't have official credentials. I was not very clear in what I said at all, because what I meant was that he has "credentials" in that people think that he is an expert, when in my opinion he is an idiot who brutalizes dogs and makes money from it, which I find despicable.

 

 

Anyone running a dog training business in Germany has to pass a test. CM requested exemption for his German tour because he is a celebrity. He was refused and it is reported that he failed the test in every section so now he can still appear in his shows in Germany but has to to have a certified trainer minder present when any training is going on.

 

Go Germany! (And as a Brit of a certain age I don't say that too often.)

[geonni banner]

What!? Caesar Milan has no credentials? But he's on TV! And National Geographic endorses him! That's almost as good as the Pope! Everyone knows that National Geographic is right about everything, would never cheat or lie, etc. ad nauseum. (Well, except for printing photos of tame animals in enclosures and representing them as wild animals, in the wild.)

I have no strong feelings about Caesar Milan. On You-Tube I've seen him get it right, and I've seen him get it wrong. If I had the time or the inclination I'd watch every You-Tube video available and score him pass or fail on each one. But then, the problem with that is that I'd still run into people whose training philosophy was at odds with mine. So we're back to a matter of opinion. Or even semantics. It's unlikely that I'll ever take my dog to Caesar Milan. And I don't watch TV.

 

I am a fan of Bill Koehler. And yeah, there are things he recommended that I would never in a million years inflict on my dog - like taping a chewed object in her mouth. But Bill Koehler was a brilliant trainer. He helped more Americans understand that dogs can be trained, and that their owners can usually do it, than just about any trainer before him or since. Using his regular obedience training methods I have trained two or three hundred dogs, including my own, and have yet to be bitten by one or had one end up "shut down." (I have been bitten by dogs, in vet clinics where I worked, and by handling injured dogs outside of clinics. And then there have been a half-dozen accidental bites.)

 

Sometimes I wonder if the popular hobby of trashing Caesar Milan is the same as the knee-jerk trashing of Bill Koehler. "Oh! He uses a choke-collar/ e-collar/ pinch-collar! He must be an evil, cruel stupid monster." No, I've seen too many happy, well-adjusted, well-trained and well-behaved dogs trained by the Koehler Method to "throw out the baby with the bath water."

 

But credentials mean little to me. Whether they are a piece of paper or a National Geographic endorsement.

 

OK, flame away!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

There are no dog trainers, not one on the face of the earth myself definitely included ,who haven't made important mistakes with dogs. It is extraordinarily easy - ask any sheepdogger - to spot mistakes from ringside. I find Cesar Milan's philosophy mildly interesting - others have said much the same things before and his gifts as a dog trainer don't translate into gifts with words. No surprise there.

 

His training gifts, and wonderful dog communication are often denied by the enthusiastic application of quasi-religious beliefs.

 

As soon as Milan's show debutted on the Nat Geo channel -before Holly, before other mistakes- a concerted letter writing effort was mounted - not because Milan was a bad trainer, because he was (ick) a corrections trainer. Indeed, the IACP (traditional trainers org) and the APDT ("positive" trainers org) had a letter writing battle because Milan became a stalking horse for competing approaches to dog training.

 

He is the best pet dog trainer I've ever seen - and I've seen many of the currently famous ones. Unsurprisingly he doesn't understand sheepdogs because he doesn't understand sheep.

 

Donald McCaig

[GentleLake]

FWIW, CM's last name is spelled with 2 Ls.

 

As much as I hate to direct anyone to his website . . . http://www.cesarsway.com/