Recreational Herding: Is It Ethical?

[Camden's Mom]

Several months ago there was a thread on this forum in which a user asked about starting an older dog on sheep. A topic came up in that thread that surprised me and I’ve not been able to get it off my mind, especially as I consider putting my young dog back on sheep after the snow melts in the spring.

 

Many of you stated that it is irresponsible of a livestock owner to train dogs who are learning to herd exclusively as a recreational activity. I remember reading in several comments that the stress to the sheep/cattle was not worth it unless the dog was training for a career as a working stockdog.

 

I’m afraid to say Camden and I fall into the “recreational” category. I want to learn the activity “for fun” but I do have enormous respect for the animals (dogs and stock alike) and tremendous admiration for the trainers and handlers involved in the world of herding. I doubt we’d be any good (he might be decent with a handler who wasn’t clueless, but with me he’s doomed) yet I still have a great desire to pursue herding with him. I love the idea of my dog doing the work he was breed for, and doing that work by my side, as a team.

 

My lifestyle doesn’t allow me to consider buying a farm or owning my own livestock, although since our first lesson I have fantasized about it often. This really would just be a fun activity for us. I’m wondering if I have some larger, ethical considerations to mull over. Is it fair to all of the animals involved to put him back on sheep if there is no useful end goal, other then a sense of shared accomplishment? Is it something I should still consider pursuing with him or should I back off from it until there is an actual use for him as a stockdog in my future, however unlikely?

 

I don’t know what choice I will make, as of yet. The idea of not putting him back on sheep ever again makes me very sad, but clearly my emotional “wants” should not be the top priority in this decision. I am very interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on all of this and thank you in advance.

[TEC]

I see no ethical difficulty, qualified as follows: 1) Learn stockwork properly/correctly, which often means going to a well qualified coach to get started, and 2) Practice/train/review on a regular basis. That's it IMO. Good reasons/justifications are many, including ( though not limited to) such things as: recreation, getting back to the land, enhancing the bond with your dog, exercise, exploring possibility of owning a farm, or some combination. It's good that you are asking, but I say, don't agonize. Work at it and have fun. As you likely already know, stockwork expands your thinking about dogs and their capabilities -- TEC

[Sue R]

I've given this quite a bit of thought since that other topic (which, sadly, went downhill fast and I was a part of that, not really understanding the situation). These are my thoughts -

 

1. There is nothing wrong with training or working dogs on livestock for a purpose (farm or ranch work, evaluating breeding potential, etc.).

 

2. There is nothing wrong with training or working dogs on livestock when the well-being of the livestock is a first priority - so, if the stock is not unduly stressed but is respected (along with the dog) and the handler is seriously wanting to understand and progress (and, in my opinion, as is all of this, not simply in pursuit of "fun" or "titles" or some such self-fulfillment activity), that's fine.

 

3. A person with production animals (like Mark or myself) may choose only to train and work dogs on stock to accomplish farm/ranch husbandry goals, or prep the dogs for the jobs on the farm or ranch that they are used for in the operation of the livestock aspect of the farm/ranch. Training may also happen to prepare dogs for trials because trialing is another way to evaluate dogs for their jobs, for breeding worthiness, and for finding potential mates. People who feel this way are entitled to not choose to allow training on their stock for recreational purposes because it may reduce productivity, increase stress, or result in occasional injury that would otherwise be avoided.

 

4. Work with someone who respects the livestock. Too often, at some facilities, stock are used over and over again for hours on end, subjected to dogs of all breeds and levels of potential ability (or lack of potential ability), and not respected by the facility owner and/or students as anything but "dog toys" or "training tools". A trainer who respects the stock (along with respecting the dogs and the students) will go a long way towards teaching you more than just working your dog on livestock.

 

5. Be prepared for the slippery slope - first the dog; next the truck; then the farm, fencing, barn, sheep, trailer, trials...

 

And, yes, there is nothing wrong with having fun doing all this. It if wasn't fun or necessity, who would do it? You seem to possess the respect and the desire to learn and progress, not just pursue "fun" or ribbons. That, to me, separates the wheat from the chaff, or those who would approach livestock work from a good perspective (again, in my opinion) from those who would approach "herding" as simply a fun activity, another way to seek for ribbons or titles, or an activity where welfare of the livestock is not a priority.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm with TEC, there. I remember the topic to which you refer, and I think what troubled folks most was that the person had an elderly dog and seemingly no reason to let him run around sheep at that late date.

However, so far as "herding" for non-farmers and non-livestock-owners ... gosh, why not? I don't own sheep, don't have a farm, but I do love to trial. I'm blessed to have friends who do have sheep and property, so I can go get my training in. But for 10 years, all I had was lessons once a week with an AHBA/ASCA trainer and a couple times a year I could run my dog in a local arena or farm trial. I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking one's working-bred dog and learning as much as possible about handling that dog around livestock.

For my own part, I think of "recreational herding" as the sort of thing where someone has a dog that maybe kinda almost could be a "herding" dog, so they just want to go somewhere every once in a while and let their dog "play" with sheep. Or maybe they want to "instinct test" their boxer or chow. The person isn't learning much, the dog certainly isn't learning much, so those sessions are most likely to be over-dogged sheep being chased around a pen by a hysterically playful dog. That's just ugly.

 

But if someone has a genuine interest in working their dog, partnering with their dog and learning as much as they can about the work, the livestock and good dog/stock handling, I'm all for it. Have fun with those weekly lessons. Enjoy the little farm trials and arena trials. After all, not everybody has the dog, the opportunity - or the insanity - to pursue the whole field trial passion. Plus it's where I started out, so it would be hypocritical of me to climb on my high horse about it, now.

Them's my tuppence!

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

And while I was typing, Sue said it far more eloquently than I did. She's hit my bottom line: respect for the livestock. There are places out there where the sheep are just objects or tools to be chased, harassed and misused, and all for the sake of putting money in that so-called trainer's pocket, so their clients can say that their dogs "herd." If that's what's going on, no, it's not ethical in the least.

After all, there's a reason the words "shepherds" and "shepherding" have the connotation that they do. Care for the livestock comes first.

~ Gloria

[Grizel]

I know exactly what you mean. I had taken lessons for many years and did a little trialling when I came upon a thread here very much like the one you describe. After thinking about it, I decided that they were right - moving animals and stressing them for no reason was a pretty inappropriate hobby. On the other hand, a friend was doing the same thing, but she was preparing to purchase a small sheep farm so she was learning a skill she would actually need to take care of her livestock.

 

If you want an opposing viewpoint I can give you that too. I have visited many farms for herding lessons and clinics, and in the vast majority of cases, the sheep were considered valuable and treated very well. The fees I paid for the services went to good food, medical care and safe fences.

 

So you will have to think it through and decide which makes more sense.

[terrecar]

I look forward to reading replies to this, as I have given this a good deal of thought. I have considered a local AHBA/ASCA trainer [ETA:To start with/test the waters]--one who I respect very much, so it isn't about the trainer or venue. For me it is that the dog that I have (a mix) probably is not appropriate for the activity. My interest would be in learning, not in giving my dog something to play with. But if my dog is not right for it, then I am guessing there isn't much that I can learn.

 

ETA: And yes, I am also quite concerned that I might be needlessly stressing the animals

[juliepoudrier]

As I said in that other thread, we all started somewhere, and many of us approached it at the start as something to try with our dogs. I know I sure didn't go to my first lesson thinking anything about where I was going with it all--I was just going to see what my dogs would do. I was fortunate that I was directed to a good instructor, who gave of herself and her farm for people like me to learn from. Granted, I grew up on a farm and so was well familiar with livestock and their care (though not sheep specifically) so for me it was perhaps a bit more natural to go in that direction, but I certainly didn't call the trainer up thinking that I wanted a sheep farm or wanted to trial. That came later, after I found out that I liked stockwork and I really liked sheep.

 

If you have a good trainer, that person will be honest with you regarding your dog. That person also, while training you and your dog to work stock, should be teaching you about livestock--how they think, how and why they react to things, what the goal is in moving them (stress free, efficiency), even how to care for them. Your trainer should respect their livestock and should work to instill that same respect in you (and all students). I have always been willing to allow students to learn husbandry and even encourage it. Not everyone wants to do that, but for those who do, I will give them instruction and opportunities in that regard as well.

 

I also won't continue to take someone's money if I don't think the dog has enough talent to make it worthwhile to continue stressing my stock. If I think the student has the wrong attitude/approach, I'll try to change that, but if I can't, then I will simply stop offering my services. This is how I work out the ethical considerations of stressing my stock for the sake of someone learning. If a person comes to me and it's clear that they really do care about the stock, the partnership with their dog, and learning (whether they go on to trial or not or own a farm or not). So for me, it really is a case by case basis. I did have one person who used to come out and it soon became clear that for her it was really about providing entertainment for her dog. She didn't really want to learn to work the dog, nor understand livestock. I let her go. I've had folks who really did want to learn but who had dogs of dubious talent. In that case, as long as the sheep aren't being overly stressed or harmed, I'll work with the person and the dog until I decide that the dog can go no further, and in such cases I am always honest with the owner.

 

So, my advice would be to go ahead and try. You never know where it will lead you. As Sue and others have said, as long as you always keep in mind the fact that the sheep are generally unwilling participants in this whole training enterprise and as long as you have a trainer/mentor who respects their livestock and also their students and the dogs being trained, it can't hurt to learn about your dog and take part in the heritage that is part of the dog's genetic makeup.

 

Just be careful in choosing your trainer (as Sue describes) and have fun. There's nothing more rewarding, IMO, than a good (stock) working partnership with your dog. You both can benefit, and you're limited only by how much you're willing to put into it.

 

Good luck.

 

Julie

[Gloria Atwater]

I look forward to reading replies to this, as I have given this a good deal of thought. I have considered a local AHBA/ASCA trainer [ETA:To start with/test the waters]--one who I respect very much, so it isn't about the trainer or venue. For me it is that the dog that I have (a mix) probably is not appropriate for the activity. My interest would be in learning, not in giving my dog something to play with. But if my dog is not right for it, then I am guessing there isn't much that I can learn.

 

ETA: And yes, I am also quite concerned that I might be needlessly stressing the animals

 

 

Seconding what Julie said! If the trainer is a good one, she'll be honest about your dog's abilities and whether it's worthwhile to continue working with him. But if he's not just chasing, biting or otherwise harassing sheep, there's a lot you may learn. You won't know until you try!

 

And above all, go with your gut. If your trainer, your dog or anything about the situation causes you any doubts or second thoughts, walk away. You know your dog and yourself best.

 

 

~ Gloria

[TEC]

All good philosophy and advice above, as well as discussion of the issues.

 

Dog/handler stockmanship and stockwork go hand in hand. As already mentioned, look for a coach/mentor who exercises good stockmanship. Watch him/her closely and learn. It's about getting the job done in a reasonable way, yet keeping stress on stock to a minimum. Starting dogs have a hard time with this. Within 8-10 lessons the rough edges of over-zealousness should begin to polish down. Yet don't be alarmed if at first your young/starting dog does things that are somewhat displeasing. I believe that all handlers are continually looking for and finding nuanced/finessed techniques to gain better control, which lessens stress, thereby increasing production. Try to locate a coach who is well qualified, and is nearby enough that you can attend lessons, I would say, approx. weekly. Progression will usually be acceptable on a weekly basis, and much better if you can attend more frequently. Talk to an instructor about those kinds of things. I recommend going back to it for both you and your dog. -- Best wishes, TEC

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

That was a very sad thread. It kept me from asking questions.

I have found that trainers will take great care with new dogs and new students. Not everyone who loves border collies can afford a ranch and people who are giving their dogs what they need should be encouraged.

OP I hope you find a good trainer and expose your dog to new environments. There are always people who will welcome newcomers, like poster Julie said.

[bcnewe2]

Not everyone who loves border collies can afford a ranch and people who are giving their dogs what they need should be encouraged.

I am not going to be a Debbie Downer, I do not see anything wrong with pursuing the idea of working stock for recreation. As long as EVERYTHING involved is respected.

 

Just wanted to point out that not all can, or want to, and even if those dogs have great potential they are not missing what they "need" if they never see sheep. Some people think they are giving something to a border collie that it has to have in order to feel fulfilled. I do not believe that is true. A dog that is loved and worked with any anything the owner chooses to do is a well satisfied dog.

 

So if someone wants to check out "herding" don't just do it because of the dog. You need to want to and enjoy yourself along with the dog or find what you both are happy doing.

I guess it's a tiny pet peeve of mine for people to think a border collie is only happy if it's a working border collie.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I never stated that every single border collie must work. I stated that owners who give their dogs what their dogs need should be encouraged. Problems develop when dogs are denied what they need, whatever that may be. And giving a dog what she needs is much more preferable than having unhappy dogs.

If a dog excels in agility, flyball, frisbee, or herding it should have it. My point is that herding as a sport or activity is preferable to a maladjusted dog with behavioural problems. The latter is unethical. The former should be encouraged.

Or rescue organisations can end up with more dogs.

[bcnewe2]

No Blame or malice intended YeseniaBeauchamp. Just adding my 2cents. Lots of times, specially on these boards people feel they are being called "less than" if they aren't working their dogs. Which I don't think is the case. People read into things more than what's intended.

Just adding that I don't think that's so.

What every dog needs in MHO is interaction with their owners. Doesn't even have to be a special activity. Just time spent interacting together makes a happy well adjusted dog. Again jut my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Absolutely agree with your post.

[Camden's Mom]

It does seem to me that the overall consensus of the responses is that the activity of recreational herding needs to be approached in a thoughtful and respectful way. I personally am not simply wanting to see my dog chase sheep for an hour once a week. Frankly, if I just wanted him to chase mindlessly after something I'd throw a ball. Since I started this post I've watched some videos (including one particularly horrific video shared on this forum) where people are clearing treating the living, breathing livestock as nothing but a toy for the dog. I think that is reprehensible and, even as a newbie to this world, I have enough common sense to know that is animal abuse.

 

I think, once I'm certain he is healthy and sound, Camden and I will resume our lessons. I hope he has enough potential for us to continue to pursue herding. I hope I'm not so dim-whitted that I hold us back. Either way, I look forward to taking this journey with my dog and learning as much as I can along the way about the livestock, my dog AND myself!

[NJSwede]

I hope I can convince my wife to post something about her experiences as a novice stock dog handler-in-training. What started as "wouldn't it be cool to see if she has any herding instinct?" has turned into a true passion in just a couple of months. She's even toying with the idea of entering trials...

 

Honestly, after watching that horrible video that was posted here a while ago, we had to sit down and talk about whether we were doing the right thing. But this is not "let's have her chase sheep for an hour so she won't bother us" kind of thing. Both my wife and our dog are on a path together to better understanding livestock and it's touching to see the bond it's building between them! I think that passes the test of "learning meaningful livestock management" as opposed to "mindless chasing", so I'm fully supporting them!

[Gloria Atwater]

I never stated that every single border collie must work. I stated that owners who give their dogs what their dogs need should be encouraged. Problems develop when dogs are denied what they need, whatever that may be. And giving a dog what she needs is much more preferable than having unhappy dogs. If a dog excels in agility, flyball, frisbee, or herding it should have it. My point is that herding as a sport or activity is preferable to a maladjusted dog with behavioural problems. The latter is unethical. The former should be encouraged. Or rescue organisations can end up with more dogs.

 

 

Just to play the devil's advocate ... if a dog has behavioral problems, working sheep will not fix them. It's a mistake to think that a dog "needs" to work livestock as a solution to problems at home. A border collie in the right home doesn't have major or severe behavioral problems if his people devote the time, attention and training that he requires. Unless of course there are other underlying problems to cause the behavioral difficulties - which again, working sheep will not fix.

 

So in that respect, I remain against "recreational herding" as a substitute for proper structure, attention and training at home.

*sinks back into my cave*

 

~ Gloria

[rushdoggie]

 

 

Just to play the devil's advocate ... if a dog has behavioral problems, working sheep will not fix them. It's a mistake to think that a dog "needs" to work livestock as a solution to problems at home.

 

Generally speaking, I agree with this, although I have seen at least one poster on these boards who advocates it for general behavior problems.

 

I do think that it can contribute to giving an insecure dog added confidence, but I have seen that happen with agility as well. I think it has more to do with the dog/handler relationship changing somewhat than the activity itself.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I am not speaking of herding in lieu of of structure. I am speaking of the dog who obsessively stares at the cat or herds other dogs at home or at a dog park, whose owners mistakenly believes that physical exercise alone will make a dog happy. There are dogs who are working dogs and whose disruptive activities miraculously end when put on sheep.

I have one example of a dog with an active couple in NYC. Loads of activities, hiking, beach, trips. But would obsessively stare at the cats and herd the extended family's children. The couple moved to the MW and at my suggestion went to herding classes. Dog no longer obsesses, has not chewed furniture, and stops herding the family's kids.

This dog might have ended up in rescue or at least unhappy. Being put on sheep saved everyone's sanity.

Everyone here knows the difference between physical fatigue and mental satisfaction. There are dogs for whom the physical fatigue of flyball is not enough.

Again, I am not saying every dog must work sheep. Or that every problem will be fixed with sheep. But there are dogs whose breeding makes them working dogs and suburban homes need to understand that the purchase of such a dog might very well mean a commitment to a new activity for the next fifteen years.

[G. Festerling]

Will it fix behavioral problems? Doubt it. If they were created off stock, stock won't "fix" them. Having said that, working a dog the RIGHT way will increase his confidence, teach him to obey (yes, I used obey) and can put a purpose into what that silly "come" command is all about among other things.

 

It will also make the observant owner get clues that he/she needs to alter the behavior off stock.

 

A dog obsessively herding cats, children or other things does not translate into a dog being a good dog to work on sheep automatically.

 

I am at the very best a recreational herder. My sheep know where the pen is and the Chihuahua can put them up. Her problem is that she can't get around them to stop them if need be! So I don't need dogs. But my dogs have filled many shoes over the years. Helping with weaning, working steers in the roping pen, helping trailer loading (long story and not what you would think at all). One was in charge of the local pigeon population and to keep the ducks under control. Abusing livestock is not ever accepted.

 

I have to say though, I just watched a Schnauzer do a much better and kinder job on a set of sheep than some of the Border Collies. So to rule out anyone with another breed just because without seeing what goes on first....is not fair in my book!

[Mark Billadeau]

I am not speaking of herding in lieu of of structure. I am speaking of the dog who obsessively stares at the cat or herds other dogs at home or at a dog park, whose owners mistakenly believes that physical exercise alone will make a dog happy. There are dogs who are working dogs and whose disruptive activities miraculously end when put on sheep.

 

So, was it working sheep that fixed these issues or would other intense mental exercise (i.e. learning to fetch items by name) have fixed these issues?

 

I strongly agree these dogs need more than physical exercise. Many require a job, something that makes them think. Livestock work is one such job; there are others jobs (real and made-up) that require a high level of mental exercise. I do not believe livestock work is the only mental exercise that will satisfy the breed's need to work its brain.

[frisbeegirl]

Recreational herding ??????????

 

You are either herding or your not. The Dog is either herding or its not.

 

I must really be missing something.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

@MarkBilledeau

 

You made me think of this Nova episode.

 

 

[Smalahundur]

Recreational herding ??????????

 

You are either herding or your not. The Dog is either herding or its not.

 

I must really be missing something.

Yes, you most likely are.

 

I don´t herd "recreation-ally"; I got into border collies because I have sheep that graze free range on the icelandic hills (no fences...). I need the dogs to get them home in autumn.

 

If you don´t personally have sheep/ other livestock and take your pet dog to a facility/farm in order to train him on stock, that is recreational.